Lol! Yes another good point, that is odd. Apparently beds are in short supply in Camelot castle
I always thought it was odd that, in the episode where Uther comes back from the dead and attacks Gwen, she is put to bed in Gauis's chamber - surely she would have been put to bed in her own room.
I always thought it was odd that, in the episode where Uther comes back from the dead and attacks Gwen, she is put to bed in Gauis's chamber - surely she would have been put to bed in her own room.
I thought the same! But I suppose, if I have to defend this, I would say that Gaius' room is like the hospital wing. Maybe she needed treatment in the night for her burns, or some other sort of comfort from the physician? Though I have to say, if it was a toss up between being comforted at night by Gaius or by Arthur (presumably her bed would be Arthur's?) then I know which one I would pick! ;-)
Though I have to say, if it was a toss up between being comforted at night by Gaius or by Arthur (presumably her bed would be Arthur's?) then I know which one I would pick! ;-)
I always thought it was odd that, in the episode where Uther comes back from the dead and attacks Gwen, she is put to bed in Gauis's chamber - surely she would have been put to bed in her own room.
I thought the same! But I suppose, if I have to defend this, I would say that Gaius' room is like the hospital wing. Maybe she needed treatment in the night for her burns, or some other sort of comfort from the physician? Though I have to say, if it was a toss up between being comforted at night by Gaius or by Arthur (presumably her bed would be Arthur's?) then I know which one I would pick! ;-)
I thought Gaius said something in the episode about being able/needing to protect her (from Uther)? Not sure though as I've only seen each S5 episode a couple of times and it could easily be something I read in a fanfic. ;-) But if not then I would assume what you said Avi; she was still in need of medical observation and Arthur was off hunting ghosts anyway. Although given she's the queen you'd think she could be put in her bed and they'd have Gaius go to her.
Yes, definitely, that was my interpretation too. Arthur needs his body again when he rises so he can't be burnt. In mythology he is not meant to be dead as such but only sleeping until his time comes again. Very Christian overtones here - the reason people used to bury bodies instead of cremating them, because the body was needed for the ultimate resurrection at the Second Coming (or whatever - my Christian doctrine may not be entirely accurate!)
Merlin couldn't set fire to Elyan, could he, as Elyan's funeral was a public affair. Well, anyway, he couldn't do it using magic.
Excellent point on the Christian overtones. Even if not deliberately referenced by the writers, Christianity and religion are deeply embedded in the legends. Natarhi is right, an archer set Elyan's burial boat on fire, not Merlin.
I think myselfandi is referring to Elyan giving Gwen a filthy look when she is in the council chamber just as he is leaving with everyone else. He clearly is angry with her so presumably is siding with Arthur over his sister. But I don't know that blood ties necessarily should dictate our loyalties.
Filthy look? That's odd, I always thought that look he gives her before walking out was a look of support; Arthur has ordered them all to leave and he looks to her before he goes and she gives a very small nod. I took that to be him checking she's ok with being left on her own with Arthur, and assumed he would have argued to stay had she indicated otherwise. Just goes to show how differently people can see the same thing.
I was partly referring to Elyan's look to Gwen as they all leave the chambers. His look didn't strike me as empathetic and supportive. Given Elyan's friendship and loyalties to Arthur and that Gwen admits her guilt, I think at the very least, Elyan is disappointed in his sister.
However, I was also referring to the fact that we don't see Elyan helping his sister pack or even saying goodbye as she leaves. Merlin at least is there. Nor does Elyan beg Arthur to show mercy to his sister - although he may have had faith that Arthur would never order her killed.
Merlin had far more information to know something was wrong, he had a chance to stop shade Lancelot (which he messed up), and it should at least have occurred to him that Morgana might have a hand in Gwen's behaviour given he knew she was controlling Lancelot.
Merlin had more information about Lancelot and Morgana's involvement, yes. That may have been part of why he begged Arthur at the end to let Gwen stay because he knew that Lancelot had probably pushed Gwen into doing something she would not have done on her own initiative.
However, Gwen didn't act differently insofar as the others could tell. Also, imo, Gwen's betrayal was set up in episode 4.02 when, as she grieves over Lancelot, she tells Arthur that he died for her. Arthur looks hurt and walks away. So from Merlin's pov (and Arthur's and Gaius), Lancelot was the hero that saved the day for the sake of Guinevere - what woman would be immune to that? Her betrayal seems believable.
ps don't worry; come episode 4.12, I'll be the one ripping into Merlin. You and Star will look kind and gentle by comparison.
Seriously, we had this debate first time around didn't we? No, kissing is not the same as sleeping with someone, but if I walked in on my husband snogging another woman in the way that Lancelot and Gwen were, then I would consider that unfaithful.
I would consider it unfaithful, but I don't think it's the same as adultery. I'm just being pedantic.
I
Lol! I agree it's cheating, I don't agree it's adultery. I agree with you that if anyone I was with tried it they'd be in deep doo.
I think within the construct of the show and its faux medieval universe, she did commit a serious transgression. Gwen was engaged and promised to Arthur, king of Camelot. She betrayed him with another. Everyone involved in the discussion, Arthur, Agravaine, Merlin etc makes it clear that it is well within Arthur's rights to have her killed. Remember Gwen thinks herself guilty and can only say she didn't know what came over her.
I think within the construct of the show and its faux medieval universe, she did commit a serious transgression. Gwen was engaged and promised to Arthur, king of Camelot. She betrayed him with another. Everyone involved in the discussion, Arthur, Agravaine, Merlin etc makes it clear that it is well within Arthur's rights to have her killed. Remember Gwen thinks herself guilty and can only say she didn't know what came over her.
They could probably accuse her of treason - publicly dishonouring the king
Perhaps if you send Bradley on over, I could persuade certain people to send Eoin back to the UK?:cool:
I thought Bradley was spotted flying to America at the start of January? In which case you can consider our side of the bargain done. Now get Eoin back here.
I was partly referring to Elyan's look to Gwen as they all leave the chambers. His look didn't strike me as empathetic and supportive. Given Elyan's friendship and loyalties to Arthur and that Gwen admits her guilt, I think at the very least, Elyan is disappointed in his sister.
Fair enough, I'm sure he'd be disappointed but to me the look still reads as support.
However, I was also referring to the fact that we don't see Elyan helping his sister pack or even saying goodbye as she leaves. Merlin at least is there. Nor does Elyan beg Arthur to show mercy to his sister - although he may have had faith that Arthur would never order her killed.
But we don't see Gwen packing at all, only walking out of her house. We could easily presume that Elyan had been inside the house helping her and had said goodbye. Like I say for all we know he offered to go with her and she told him to stay in Camelot. Sadly this sort of character connection/development is something they hardly ever bothered with including for the main four, let alone the supporting cast. I mean apart from the episode where Elyan is introduced I can think of only two episodes (before the one where he dies and it becomes 'important') that even reference him being Gwen's brother; if you missed that first episode you would have only a couple of throwaway lines to let you know they were related, the way they interact certainly doesn't.
Merlin had more information about Lancelot and Morgana's involvement, yes. That may have been part of why he begged Arthur at the end to let Gwen stay because he knew that Lancelot had probably pushed Gwen into doing something she would not have done on her own initiative.
However, Gwen didn't act differently insofar as the others could tell. Also, imo, Gwen's betrayal was set up in episode 4.02 when, as she grieves over Lancelot, she tells Arthur that he died for her. Arthur looks hurt and walks away. So from Merlin's pov (and Arthur's and Gaius), Lancelot was the hero that saved the day for the sake of Guinevere - what woman would be immune to that? Her betrayal seems believable.
Merlin doesn't speak to Arthur until after Gwen has left-i.e. when it's already too late. And he doesn't speak to Gwen at all, not when he realises she's going to meet Lancelot, not when she's locked in the cells, not even when she's leaving forever. What kind of friend is that? If he'd bothered speaking to her at any of those points he would/should have been able to work out very quickly that something was wrong.
Of course the great irony of this episode is that Morgana knows Gwen would be immune to Lancelot despite the circumstances of his death and their history, that's why she makes the bracelet, but apparently none of the people who care for Gwen know enough to even be suspicious that her behaviour is out of character.
I think within the construct of the show and its faux medieval universe, she did commit a serious transgression. Gwen was engaged and promised to Arthur, king of Camelot. She betrayed him with another. Everyone involved in the discussion, Arthur, Agravaine, Merlin etc makes it clear that it is well within Arthur's rights to have her killed. Remember Gwen thinks herself guilty and can only say she didn't know what came over her.
I completely agree it was a betrayal and a serious transgression, I'm just quibbling over the term adultery.
I thought Bradley was spotted flying to America at the start of January? In which case you can consider our side of the bargain done. Now get Eoin back here.
Of course the great irony of this episode is that Morgana knows Gwen would be immune to Lancelot despite the circumstances of his death and their history, that's why she makes the bracelet, but apparently none of the people who care for Gwen know enough to even be suspicious that her behaviour is out of character.
That's because Morgana isn't an up her own arse tw*t like Merlin, Gaius and to a certain extent, Arthur. But I'll let Arthur off because he was hurt by the seemingly, betrayal.
I'm glad they decided, in the end, to go with the enchantment thing and not stick true to legend as I do not believe Gwen, in this version, would have done that to Arthur.
I'm glad they decided, in the end, to go with the enchantment thing and not stick true to legend as I do not believe Gwen, in this version, would have done that to Arthur.
I understand where you're coming from but the enchantment thing is a bit boring and predictable isn't it. Gwen was far too much of a goody two shoes towards the end, and as much as I don't like Lancelot, I could have understood her kissing him in the heat of the moment without thinking. It would have made her character more interesting and human, anyway. Maybe I wouldn't have minded this storyline so much if they hadn't done the enchanted Gwen thing for oh the ENTIRE of S5. <Where's the rolley eyes emoticon??>
They were really, REALLY crap with the female characters, weren't they?
They turned Morgana into a smirking pantomime villain, and simply didn't seem to know what to do with Gwen, turning her from a feisty sword-fighting confident young woman who had enough of a personality to win the prince's heart to a complete non-entity. Good grief, I didn't think her corsets were THAT tight that they cut of the blood supply to her brain
That's because Morgana isn't an up her own arse tw*t like Merlin, Gaius and to a certain extent, Arthur. But I'll let Arthur off because he was hurt by the seemingly, betrayal.
I'm glad they decided, in the end, to go with the enchantment thing and not stick true to legend as I do not believe Gwen, in this version, would have done that to Arthur.
I understand where you're coming from but the enchantment thing is a bit boring and predictable isn't it. Gwen was far too much of a goody two shoes towards the end, and as much as I don't like Lancelot, I could have understood her kissing him in the heat of the moment without thinking. It would have made her character more interesting and human, anyway. Maybe I wouldn't have minded this storyline so much if they hadn't done the enchanted Gwen thing for oh the ENTIRE of S5. <Where's the rolley eyes emoticon??>
I'm glad they went with the bracelet thing because I agree with Star that this Gwen would not have betrayed Arthur. If the show had better, more consistent writers then I think they could have written it so that it was believable that Gwen would choose to have an affair with Lancelot. Given the level of writing/producing we did have though they were never going to be able to pull that off, for one thing it would have required a proper story arc with emotions between the three of them building across multiple episodes.
They were really, REALLY crap with the female characters, weren't they?
They turned Morgana into a smirking pantomime villain, and simply didn't seem to know what to do with Gwen, turning her from a feisty sword-fighting confident young woman who had enough of a personality to win the prince's heart to a complete non-entity. Good grief, I didn't think her corsets were THAT tight that they cut of the blood supply to her brain
Yes they were. >:(>:( Idiotic misogynist useless *******. >:(>:( Heaven forbid we should have an interesting well-rounded female character. *wonders how anyone is supposed to get by without the rolleyes smiley*
If the show had better, more consistent writers then I think they could have written it so that it was believable that Gwen would choose to have an affair with Lancelot.
I don't think the level of writing had anything to do with it really. Merlin had some very gifted writers, some of the episodes are staggeringly good. Their problem was always with a lack of a decent showrunner, someone who was keeping The Book so they didn't end up with the gaping plot holes and switches in characterisation and their appalling lack of creating the "Golden Age".
Although it ended up with a slightly later time slot, Merlin was originally conceived, and publicised as, a family friendly show that you could watch with your kids and their grandparents. There's no way they'd have actually written a "proper" adultery/affair storyline for the show given its origins.
It getting darker in character towards the end of the show's life really only referred to them introducing Morgana's "madness" and a few more elements of hopelessness as it moved towards the eventual conclusion of Arthur's fate, it didn't become dark in the sense that Game of Thrones is dark, with lots of murder, death and betrayal.
If Merlin had originally aired from 8pm (and later) then I could have seen them doing an actual affair storyline with Gwen and Lancelot.
I don't think the level of writing had anything to do with it really. Merlin had some very gifted writers, some of the episodes are staggeringly good. Their problem was always with a lack of a decent showrunner, someone who was keeping The Book so they didn't end up with the gaping plot holes and switches in characterisation and their appalling lack of creating the "Golden Age".
Although it ended up with a slightly later time slot, Merlin was originally conceived, and publicised as, a family friendly show that you could watch with your kids and their grandparents. There's no way they'd have actually written a "proper" adultery/affair storyline for the show given its origins.
It getting darker in character towards the end of the show's life really only referred to them introducing Morgana's "madness" and a few more elements of hopelessness as it moved towards the eventual conclusion of Arthur's fate, it didn't become dark in the sense that Game of Thrones is dark, with lots of murder, death and betrayal.
If Merlin had originally aired from 8pm (and later) then I could have seen them doing an actual affair storyline with Gwen and Lancelot.
I agree that a large part of the blame rests with the "higher ups", I did mention the producers being at fault too (although perhaps not as clearly as I was thinking it). I don't think the writers themselves can be absolved of all blame though, if your job is writing and you don't already know the characters you're writing for surely you have some responsibility to find out about them and make your characterisation consistent?
Good point about the family show element, I'd forgotten about that. You're right there is no way they could have gotten away with real betrayal.
I'm glad they went with the bracelet thing because I agree with Star that this Gwen would not have betrayed Arthur. If the show had better, more consistent writers then I think they could have written it so that it was believable that Gwen would choose to have an affair with Lancelot.
I still think they could have written it so that Gwen kissed Lancelot in the heat of the moment but regretted it, they didn't have to do a full on affair. I would have been happy with that. Having said that, when I watched Merlin the first time round I never quite believed Gwen and Arthur's relationship so I could have bought that she'd have an affair with Lancelot. Having watched the earlier episodes now, I can buy into it a bit more but I'm still not a massive Arwen fan, sorry.
But we don't see Gwen packing at all, only walking out of her house. We could easily presume that Elyan had been inside the house helping her and had said goodbye. Like I say for all we know he offered to go with her and she told him to stay in Camelot. Sadly this sort of character connection/development is something they hardly ever bothered with including for the main four, let alone the supporting cast.
Fair point but then, that argument could also be applied to what you say about Merlin:
Merlin doesn't speak to Arthur until after Gwen has left-i.e. when it's already too late. And he doesn't speak to Gwen at all, not when he realises she's going to meet Lancelot, not when she's locked in the cells, not even when she's leaving forever. What kind of friend is that? If he'd bothered speaking to her at any of those points he would/should have been able to work out very quickly that something was wrong.
Maybe Merlin did say something to Arthur and that is what he is referring to when he says 'I know what Gwen did was desperately wrong'. Or maybe he did go and see Gwen in the cell (though I don't think she was there that long).
Where I would agree with you is that the character development all round could have been better. But just because a scene is not shown, we can't assume it did not take place, or equally, argue that it could have taken place when we did not see it.
Of course the great irony of this episode is that Morgana knows Gwen would be immune to Lancelot despite the circumstances of his death and their history, that's why she makes the bracelet, but apparently none of the people who care for Gwen know enough to even be suspicious that her behaviour is out of character.
Well yes, Morgana probably understands Gwen better woman to woman than any of the male characters would understand her.
Or maybe Morgana was just hedging her bets, preparing the bracelet in case Agravaine reported back that she was no longer interested in Lancelot. Because, let's face it, if she knew from the off Gwen was going to be faithful to Arthur, why did she not give Lancelot the bracelet in the first place?
They were really, REALLY crap with the female characters, weren't they?
They turned Morgana into a smirking pantomime villain, and simply didn't seem to know what to do with Gwen, turning her from a feisty sword-fighting confident young woman who had enough of a personality to win the prince's heart to a complete non-entity. Good grief, I didn't think her corsets were THAT tight that they cut of the blood supply to her brain
I don't know they looked (and felt) bloody tight to me :p
I still think they could have written it so that Gwen kissed Lancelot in the heat of the moment but regretted it, they didn't have to do a full on affair. I would have been happy with that. Having said that, when I watched Merlin the first time round I never quite believed Gwen and Arthur's relationship so I could have bought that she'd have an affair with Lancelot. Having watched the earlier episodes now, I can buy into it a bit more but I'm still not a massive Arwen fan, sorry.
But I still think Star's earlier point stands; this Gwen at this point was never going to believably be kissing Lancelot even in the heat of the moment. She'd long since got over her feelings for him, gratitude and wonder at him being alive can only go so far.
Fair point but then, that argument could also be applied to what you say about Merlin:
Maybe Merlin did say something to Arthur and that is what he is referring to when he says 'I know what Gwen did was desperately wrong'. Or maybe he did go and see Gwen in the cell (though I don't think she was there that long).
Where I would agree with you is that the character development all round could have been better. But just because a scene is not shown, we can't assume it did not take place, or equally, argue that it could have taken place when we did not see it.
All true. I would only argue that we are shown when Merlin does anything relevant (which talking to Gwen would be) so it's unlikely that they wouldn't have shown us had he talked with her. But I was only raising those possibilities to explain why I'm not angry with Elyan, I wasn't arguing they really did happen. You have to imagine so much of the knight's personalities anyway I just do it without thinking.
Or maybe Morgana was just hedging her bets, preparing the bracelet in case Agravaine reported back that she was no longer interested in Lancelot. Because, let's face it, if she knew from the off Gwen was going to be faithful to Arthur, why did she not give Lancelot the bracelet in the first place?
Well she has to have something to keep her little lacky busy with. Let him run back and forth from the castle, make him feel important. Like when I send my kids off to fetch something in the supermarket.
I don't think the writers themselves can be absolved of all blame though, if your job is writing and you don't already know the characters you're writing for surely you have some responsibility to find out about them and make your characterisation consistent?
I suppose it depends how the other writers were employed. If they were just commissioned to come in, write one episode with a specific story line they had to follow, would they be wrong to assume that the people giving them the episode outline would know what was going on!
They were really, REALLY crap with the female characters, weren't they?
They turned Morgana into a smirking pantomime villain, and simply didn't seem to know what to do with Gwen, turning her from a feisty sword-fighting confident young woman who had enough of a personality to win the prince's heart to a complete non-entity. Good grief, I didn't think her corsets were THAT tight that they cut of the blood supply to her brain
Evening Smint
BIB - Yes >:(
On the other hand, I don't think they did the boys that many favours either
Arthur
I'd always imagined that the King of Legend was wise, shrewd, a great diplomat, a great swordsman and a man who stood head and shoulders above everyone else on his own merits...In short, worthy of the title 'The once and future King'.
This Arthur, though undoubtedly brave and a great swordsman was, lets face it, a PLONKER, and a credibility-busting, short-sighted one at that
I have to ask myself: Why would I want this Arthur back? The King who couldn't get out of bed in the morning without Merlin saving his life by lunchtime...
I only wish they had included a scene of Arthur's return in modern times - preferably showing him walking into Specsavers
Merlin
Another legendary wise man gets the 'I don't know what the **** I'm doing!' treatment right up to the very end, leaving me convinced that the only reason he's immortal is because he's too bloody stupid to die
His greatest triumph is killing a mentally ill, second-rate batman villain and then he takes an age to get his 'best friend' to the lake of Avalon just in time for him to die and wring every last drop of emotion out of the moment; hoping that nobody notices that even Hunith could have carried Arthur there quicker than Merlin did
Still, it was all worthwhile because it brought about the Golden Age; at least that's what the dragon with Alzheimers said >:(
PS: In case I haven't mentioned it before; No, I didn't enjoy the Finale
I suppose it depends how the other writers were employed. If they were just commissioned to come in, write one episode with a specific story line they had to follow, would they be wrong to assume that the people giving them the episode outline would know what was going on!
True. But as we don't know exactly what was going on I'm going to share the blame around.
It's Doctor Who rewatch day if anyone's interested in joining me and Star (and hopefully Lowri) on the other thread.
On the other hand, I don't think they did the boys that many favours either
Arthur
I'd always imagined that the King of Legend was wise, shrewd, a great diplomat, a great swordsman and a man who stood head and shoulders above everyone else on his own merits...In short, worthy of the title 'The once and future King'.
This Arthur, though undoubtedly brave and a great swordsman was, lets face it, a PLONKER, and a credibility-busting, short-sighted one at that
I have to ask myself: Why would I want this Arthur back? The King who couldn't get out of bed in the morning without Merlin saving his life by lunchtime...
I only wish they had included a scene of Arthur's return in modern times - preferably showing him walking into Specsavers
Merlin
Another legendary wise man gets the 'I don't know what the **** I'm doing!' treatment right up to the very end, leaving me convinced that the only reason he's immortal is because he's too bloody stupid to die
His greatest triumph is killing a mentally ill, second-rate batman villain and then he takes an age to get his 'best friend' to the lake of Avalon just in time for him to die and wring every last drop of emotion out of the moment; hoping that nobody notices that even Hunith could have carried Arthur there quicker than Merlin did
Still, it was all worthwhile because it brought about the Golden Age; at least that's what the dragon with Alzheimers said >:(
PS: In case I haven't mentioned it before; No, I didn't enjoy the Finale
Yes, definitely, that was my interpretation too. Arthur needs his body again when he rises so he can't be burnt. In mythology he is not meant to be dead as such but only sleeping until his time comes again
My feeling on this is that Merlin could not bear to set fire to the boat carrying Arthur because he was his best friend.
Comments
I always thought it was odd that, in the episode where Uther comes back from the dead and attacks Gwen, she is put to bed in Gauis's chamber - surely she would have been put to bed in her own room.
I thought the same! But I suppose, if I have to defend this, I would say that Gaius' room is like the hospital wing. Maybe she needed treatment in the night for her burns, or some other sort of comfort from the physician?
Lucky man!
Excellent point on the Christian overtones. Even if not deliberately referenced by the writers, Christianity and religion are deeply embedded in the legends. Natarhi is right, an archer set Elyan's burial boat on fire, not Merlin.
Perhaps if you send Bradley on over, I could persuade certain people to send Eoin back to the UK?:cool:
I was partly referring to Elyan's look to Gwen as they all leave the chambers. His look didn't strike me as empathetic and supportive. Given Elyan's friendship and loyalties to Arthur and that Gwen admits her guilt, I think at the very least, Elyan is disappointed in his sister.
However, I was also referring to the fact that we don't see Elyan helping his sister pack or even saying goodbye as she leaves. Merlin at least is there. Nor does Elyan beg Arthur to show mercy to his sister - although he may have had faith that Arthur would never order her killed.
Merlin had more information about Lancelot and Morgana's involvement, yes. That may have been part of why he begged Arthur at the end to let Gwen stay because he knew that Lancelot had probably pushed Gwen into doing something she would not have done on her own initiative.
However, Gwen didn't act differently insofar as the others could tell. Also, imo, Gwen's betrayal was set up in episode 4.02 when, as she grieves over Lancelot, she tells Arthur that he died for her. Arthur looks hurt and walks away. So from Merlin's pov (and Arthur's and Gaius), Lancelot was the hero that saved the day for the sake of Guinevere - what woman would be immune to that? Her betrayal seems believable.
ps don't worry; come episode 4.12, I'll be the one ripping into Merlin. You and Star will look kind and gentle by comparison.
I think within the construct of the show and its faux medieval universe, she did commit a serious transgression. Gwen was engaged and promised to Arthur, king of Camelot. She betrayed him with another. Everyone involved in the discussion, Arthur, Agravaine, Merlin etc makes it clear that it is well within Arthur's rights to have her killed. Remember Gwen thinks herself guilty and can only say she didn't know what came over her.
I thought Bradley was already back with you? Didn't he fly out to the USA at the beginning of the month? If so, can you send Eoin back NOW!
They could probably accuse her of treason - publicly dishonouring the king
Fair enough, I'm sure he'd be disappointed but to me the look still reads as support. But we don't see Gwen packing at all, only walking out of her house. We could easily presume that Elyan had been inside the house helping her and had said goodbye. Like I say for all we know he offered to go with her and she told him to stay in Camelot. Sadly this sort of character connection/development is something they hardly ever bothered with including for the main four, let alone the supporting cast. I mean apart from the episode where Elyan is introduced I can think of only two episodes (before the one where he dies and it becomes 'important') that even reference him being Gwen's brother; if you missed that first episode you would have only a couple of throwaway lines to let you know they were related, the way they interact certainly doesn't. Merlin doesn't speak to Arthur until after Gwen has left-i.e. when it's already too late. And he doesn't speak to Gwen at all, not when he realises she's going to meet Lancelot, not when she's locked in the cells, not even when she's leaving forever. What kind of friend is that? If he'd bothered speaking to her at any of those points he would/should have been able to work out very quickly that something was wrong.
Of course the great irony of this episode is that Morgana knows Gwen would be immune to Lancelot despite the circumstances of his death and their history, that's why she makes the bracelet, but apparently none of the people who care for Gwen know enough to even be suspicious that her behaviour is out of character. Well I'll be yelling at him then too, so I probably won't.
I completely agree it was a betrayal and a serious transgression, I'm just quibbling over the term adultery.
Pfftt I doubt it >:(
Stupid, useless, backstabbing, cowardly, murdering, **** wit >:(>:(>:( (Merlin BTW not you lol)
That's because Morgana isn't an up her own arse tw*t like Merlin, Gaius and to a certain extent, Arthur. But I'll let Arthur off because he was hurt by the seemingly, betrayal.
I'm glad they decided, in the end, to go with the enchantment thing and not stick true to legend as I do not believe Gwen, in this version, would have done that to Arthur.
I understand where you're coming from but the enchantment thing is a bit boring and predictable isn't it. Gwen was far too much of a goody two shoes towards the end, and as much as I don't like Lancelot, I could have understood her kissing him in the heat of the moment without thinking. It would have made her character more interesting and human, anyway. Maybe I wouldn't have minded this storyline so much if they hadn't done the enchanted Gwen thing for oh the ENTIRE of S5. <Where's the rolley eyes emoticon??>
They turned Morgana into a smirking pantomime villain, and simply didn't seem to know what to do with Gwen, turning her from a feisty sword-fighting confident young woman who had enough of a personality to win the prince's heart to a complete non-entity. Good grief, I didn't think her corsets were THAT tight that they cut of the blood supply to her brain
I'm glad they went with the bracelet thing because I agree with Star that this Gwen would not have betrayed Arthur. If the show had better, more consistent writers then I think they could have written it so that it was believable that Gwen would choose to have an affair with Lancelot. Given the level of writing/producing we did have though they were never going to be able to pull that off, for one thing it would have required a proper story arc with emotions between the three of them building across multiple episodes.
BIB-they stole it in the redesign.
Yes they were. >:(>:( Idiotic misogynist useless *******. >:(>:( Heaven forbid we should have an interesting well-rounded female character. *wonders how anyone is supposed to get by without the rolleyes smiley*
I don't think the level of writing had anything to do with it really. Merlin had some very gifted writers, some of the episodes are staggeringly good. Their problem was always with a lack of a decent showrunner, someone who was keeping The Book so they didn't end up with the gaping plot holes and switches in characterisation and their appalling lack of creating the "Golden Age".
Although it ended up with a slightly later time slot, Merlin was originally conceived, and publicised as, a family friendly show that you could watch with your kids and their grandparents. There's no way they'd have actually written a "proper" adultery/affair storyline for the show given its origins.
It getting darker in character towards the end of the show's life really only referred to them introducing Morgana's "madness" and a few more elements of hopelessness as it moved towards the eventual conclusion of Arthur's fate, it didn't become dark in the sense that Game of Thrones is dark, with lots of murder, death and betrayal.
If Merlin had originally aired from 8pm (and later) then I could have seen them doing an actual affair storyline with Gwen and Lancelot.
Good point about the family show element, I'd forgotten about that. You're right there is no way they could have gotten away with real betrayal.
I still think they could have written it so that Gwen kissed Lancelot in the heat of the moment but regretted it, they didn't have to do a full on affair. I would have been happy with that. Having said that, when I watched Merlin the first time round I never quite believed Gwen and Arthur's relationship so I could have bought that she'd have an affair with Lancelot. Having watched the earlier episodes now, I can buy into it a bit more but I'm still not a massive Arwen fan, sorry.
Fair point but then, that argument could also be applied to what you say about Merlin:
Maybe Merlin did say something to Arthur and that is what he is referring to when he says 'I know what Gwen did was desperately wrong'. Or maybe he did go and see Gwen in the cell (though I don't think she was there that long).
Where I would agree with you is that the character development all round could have been better. But just because a scene is not shown, we can't assume it did not take place, or equally, argue that it could have taken place when we did not see it.
Well yes, Morgana probably understands Gwen better woman to woman than any of the male characters would understand her.
Or maybe Morgana was just hedging her bets, preparing the bracelet in case Agravaine reported back that she was no longer interested in Lancelot. Because, let's face it, if she knew from the off Gwen was going to be faithful to Arthur, why did she not give Lancelot the bracelet in the first place?
I don't know they looked (and felt) bloody tight to me
You had your hands on Gwen's corsets Star?
I had my chest in Gwen's corsets ;-):p:p:D (And Morgana's ;-))
All true. I would only argue that we are shown when Merlin does anything relevant (which talking to Gwen would be) so it's unlikely that they wouldn't have shown us had he talked with her. But I was only raising those possibilities to explain why I'm not angry with Elyan, I wasn't arguing they really did happen. You have to imagine so much of the knight's personalities anyway I just do it without thinking.
Well she has to have something to keep her little lacky busy with. Let him run back and forth from the castle, make him feel important. Like when I send my kids off to fetch something in the supermarket.
I suppose it depends how the other writers were employed. If they were just commissioned to come in, write one episode with a specific story line they had to follow, would they be wrong to assume that the people giving them the episode outline would know what was going on!
Have to agree Avi, what is seen on screen is canon. Everything else is the viewer's interpretation (and often a wish list!)
Evening Smint
BIB - Yes >:(
On the other hand, I don't think they did the boys that many favours either
Arthur
I'd always imagined that the King of Legend was wise, shrewd, a great diplomat, a great swordsman and a man who stood head and shoulders above everyone else on his own merits...In short, worthy of the title 'The once and future King'.
This Arthur, though undoubtedly brave and a great swordsman was, lets face it, a PLONKER, and a credibility-busting, short-sighted one at that
I have to ask myself: Why would I want this Arthur back? The King who couldn't get out of bed in the morning without Merlin saving his life by lunchtime...
I only wish they had included a scene of Arthur's return in modern times - preferably showing him walking into Specsavers
Merlin
Another legendary wise man gets the 'I don't know what the **** I'm doing!' treatment right up to the very end, leaving me convinced that the only reason he's immortal is because he's too bloody stupid to die
His greatest triumph is killing a mentally ill, second-rate batman villain and then he takes an age to get his 'best friend' to the lake of Avalon just in time for him to die and wring every last drop of emotion out of the moment; hoping that nobody notices that even Hunith could have carried Arthur there quicker than Merlin did
Still, it was all worthwhile because it brought about the Golden Age; at least that's what the dragon with Alzheimers said >:(
PS: In case I haven't mentioned it before; No, I didn't enjoy the Finale
It's Doctor Who rewatch day if anyone's interested in joining me and Star (and hopefully Lowri) on the other thread.
Couldn't have summed it up better myself!
My feeling on this is that Merlin could not bear to set fire to the boat carrying Arthur because he was his best friend.