I can't see why 'Kellie' would be faking her journey (it's so unlikely I'm inclined to believe it) but still, unless Maloney's had a breakdown of some kind, something doesn't add up. .
I agree, there's definitely something odd about the whole thing, not him wanting to be a woman etc but going into the BB house, 24/7 cameras - just doesn't make sense to me.
I agree, there's definitely something odd about the whole thing, not him wanting to be a woman etc but going into the BB house, 24/7 cameras - just doesn't make sense to me.
It is a bit of a nerve-racking platform to choose but maybe she thought it might be a good way of letting everyone see who she is now so when she comes out, she can more easily get on with her new life? As in a 'take me or leave me' move.
Where you state "most of the high profile transgender activists are still 'intact'" .....in general it is considered rude to ask if someone is pre or post-op but most of the activists I'm aware of are post-op and have been for many years. I only know of one activist of any prominence who isn't and that's not through choice. NHS gender services are notoriously under-funded and badly-managed.
The obstetrics part.....yes a man can be pregnant. A trans man that is. A person who is biologically female and who is at the early stages (and therefore not yet infertile) of his transition.
The issue of women-only spaces is a sensitive one but some people do make ridiculous claims. In the same way as some people have worn various uniforms as disguises to commit crimes some men have dressed as women to commit crimes against women. It does happen but it is rare and they are men, not trans women.
The NHS currently will not allow someone to start hormone therapy without first going full-time in their identified gender. For most trans women that means there will be a point where they're standing in front of two toilet doors wondering "do I risk getting shouted at and have the police called on me or do I risk getting beaten-up?"
When a trans woman is on hormone therapy the muscle-loss is quite quick. A trans woman is usually no stronger physically than someone born biologically female. There is also loss of function, as well as reduced sex-drive. Basically within a few weeks of starting hormone treatment the patient knows if transition is for them or not. If they continue it will be at least two years before they are referred for surgery and even then there is a lengthy waiting list of over a year (and getting longer.) So yes, some women do have penises but they're shrinking and they don't work so they couldn't do anything with them even if they wanted to.
In terms of the high profile transwomen I was thinking about people like Janet Mock and Laverne Cox, there's another who models for Victoria's secret who's name I've forgotten. Much of the trans debate has become transatlantic due to Twitter and blogging. This has definitely increased the profile for transwomen and meant the debate has reached a wide audience.
I'm loathe to align myself with the radical feminists. many of them get sadistic pleasure from 'doxing' transwomen or misgendering them online. However, there is an equally vocal and aggressive faction of the transactivist community who threaten rape and dismemberment to radical feminists.
The issue is incredibly delicate and complex. My concern has always been about equal rights and non-discrimination etc. But when we drill down into what certain categories mean its not so simple.
In terms of women only spaces: much of the concern is that a late transitioner will have been socialised as male and still have 'male privilege'. In the context of women meeting to discuss experience of sexual abuse etc many feel uncomfortable sharing the space with a transwoman who has previously been part of that culture of male violence even if they've never committed any offence themselves: gender isn't so easily sloughed off, it starts before we even have language and is embedded in our consciousness.
I have friends who are trans (sorry, I know its the worst defense in the world!) but there is sometimes the sense that their political acceptance is at the expense of what feminists have fought for. The use of the word 'cis' to designate women born female ( the idea that our gender identity is in sync with our biological identity) is currently the focus of much debate with even liberal feminists resisting the implications of a term that ignores the difficulties all women have adapting to the restrictions of gender in a patriarchal society.
I'm 'gender critical' and I see in the trans experience the same potential to radically challenge gender norms that feminism also offers. Where this breaks down is when sections of the trans movement dismiss women's experience, or talk about a 'female brain', or try to deny the reality of our equally valid gendered oppression.
BIB It appears that this may be the opinion of the entrenched few, who are radical in the prejudices of their original theoretical parameters and refuse to change. Their fight is not the necessarily the fight of the oppressed. Interesting article here: http://www.radicalwomen.org/transphobia.shtml
You would imagine that a trans -female would help highlight the cause of feminism. Their fight in the work-place could highlight this if you consider that as a man they were hired on a high wage for a certain job but if they changed gender subsequently and their wage did not increase or kept low to conform to how a female would be paid in the same job; this would highlight gender inequality.
The reaction of a male community to a male changing to female is possibly one of incredulity, almost perversion of why a man would want to be a woman. This could highlight how men may see women as the secondary sex.
I am not highly educated in the area but instead of perhaps feminists alienating transgendered people (and this should go against any fight against oppression) they should see the transgendered person as an exception to the rule (rules by which hierarchies and feminists refuse to bend) therefore a formerly unidentified symptom which may be helpful in resolving gender conflict. Though for some I'd say the conflict is all that matters.
Once again, excuse my ignorance on such matters.:)
You make some very valid points. The focus on equal rights at work etc for marginalised groups and fighting discrimination etc is what surely binds anyone interested in such things together. There should be no barriers based on class, race, gender, sexuality etc and this is the foundation for any social justice movement.
So yes, feminists and trans are natural bedfellows in many ways. The problem however seems to come down to how someone defines their identity. Many feminists don't think a late transitioning MtF can really ever be rid of the privileges that growing up in a male dominated society entails.
There is a further argument (I'm playing devil's advocate, don't shoot me) that the very notion of a trans identity is perfectly in sync with a neo-liberal society where individual desire, and making yourself into anything you want to be, is the order of the day. Such a philosophy is not interested in communal responsibility (Thatcher was the starting point with her comment that 'trhere's no such thing as society') and there is a strong link in some parts of the trans movement with a self-interested libertarianism.
You also make the point about seeing transition as a 'perversion'. Again, devil's advocate here, there is a highly contested term called 'autogynephilia' which basically means that men get a sexual thrill from seeing themselves as women. However, transexualism was, and is, seen as a more traditionally defined body dysmorphia and many like to distinguish transexual from transgender as the latter does not always seek full transition through surgery.
You make some very valid points. The focus on equal rights at work etc for marginalised groups and fighting discrimination etc is what surely binds anyone interested in such things together. There should be no barriers based on class, race, gender, sexuality etc and this is the foundation for any social justice movement.
Naturally
So yes, feminists and trans are natural bedfellows in many ways. The problem however seems to come down to how someone defines their identity. Many feminists don't think a late transitioning MtF can really ever be rid of the privileges that growing up in a male dominated society entails.
This only works if privilege relates to the male vs female binary. Not all the injustices of the world fall so easily in to this categorization. The privileged are few, and more often male, but in no way should this suggest that all males fall in to this closed class. I would imagine if we are to take the transsexual and transgendered, male to female, persons point of view ;they may never have took it as privilege; I can see how this would further undermine a radical feminists need to force this binary, hence those who transgress it may seem like a threat.
There is a further argument (I'm playing devil's advocate, don't shoot me) that the very notion of a trans identity is perfectly in sync with a neo-liberal society where individual desire, and making yourself into anything you want to be, is the order of the day. Such a philosophy is not interested in communal responsibility (Thatcher was the starting point with her comment that 'trhere's no such thing as society') and there is a strong link in some parts of the trans movement with a self-interested libertarianism.
This only further enforces some type of bias that the transgendered person decides to choose a different identity, rather than have always felt they were of another identity and could easily lead to much discrimination on the issue. Nobody would dare say that homosexuality is a choice would they?
As for ' not being interested in communal responsibility' what could that even mean when it comes to someones identity? Is the onus not on the community itself to be acceptant, not the individual to always fit in to the dictates of the many, especially with regard to who they are essentially. I imagine if someone feels whole they would wholly be able to fulfill their responsibilities to their community and society.
You also make the point about seeing transition as a 'perversion'. Again, devil's advocate here, there is a highly contested term called 'autogynephilia' which basically means that men get a sexual thrill from seeing themselves as women. However, transexualism was, and is, seen as a more traditionally defined body dysmorphia and many like to distinguish transexual from transgender as the latter does not always seek full transition through surgery.
It's a fascinating, complex subject.
BIB : I did not say I would see it as such, I said it might be perceived as such, initially, by a male to female trans person's peers in the male environment. As for the rest I am aware of the difference between transexuals transvestites, cross dressers etc…(it's important, I'd say not to confuse these issues), though I am sure there is gross over- simplification and generalizations of each.
This only works if privilege relates to the male vs female binary. Not all the injustices of the world fall so easily in to this categorization. The privileged are few, and more often male, but in no way should this suggest that all males fall in to this closed class. I would imagine if we are to take the transsexual and transgendered, male to female, persons point of view ;they may never have took it as privilege; I can see how this would further undermine a radical feminists need to force this binary, hence those who transgress it may seem like a threat.
This only further enforces some type of bias that the transgendered person decides to choose a different identity, rather than have always felt they were of another identity and could easily lead to much discrimination on the issue. Nobody would dare say that homosexuality is a choice would they?
As for ' not being interested in communal responsibility' what could that even mean when it comes to someones identity? Is the onus not on the community itself to be acceptant, not the individual to always fit in to the dictates of the many, especially with regard to who they are essentially. I imagine if someone feels whole they would wholly be able to fulfill their responsibilities to their community and society.
BIB : I did not say I would see it as such, I said it might be perceived as such, initially, by a male to female trans person's peers in the male environment. As for the rest I am aware of the difference between transexuals transvestites, cross dressers etc…(it's important, I'd say not to confuse these issues), though I am sure there is gross over- simplification and generalizations of each.
It's tricky defending points that I made when I hope I was clear that I didn't necessarily hold them myself!
The issue of 'choice' is interesting and many gay and lesbians would certainly prefer to say they'd chosen to be gay rather than say they were 'born this way' which implies some kind of innate, and thus possibly genetic, sexual preference.
It's tricky defending points that I made when I hope I was clear that I didn't necessarily hold them myself!
The issue of 'choice' is interesting and many gay and lesbians would certainly prefer to say they'd chosen to be gay rather than say they were 'born this way' which implies some kind of innate, and thus possibly genetic, sexual preference.
It's tricky for me also, as I am not transgendered ( though I have a close friend who is) and I do not consider myself feminist (too limiting of a term) rather I would consider myself interested in addressing many social inequalities and, though not trained in gender studies, I am trained in critical thinking, which endorses an interest in the above.
As for the issue of 'choice' to do with a persons sexual identity, I can see where you may perceive an innate/biological influence as reductionist ; by that criteria seeing everything as a 'construct' or choice is an equally reductionist way of thinking when in the real world our desires are often a mesh of deep-seated urges and passions(not to mention a wide scope of external determinations) and reasoned choice on whether to fulfill them or not.
"This only further enforces some type of bias that the transgendered person decides to choose a different identity, rather than have always felt they were of another identity and could easily lead to much discrimination on the issue." from dialectic above
Again, I'm not sure where or what this 'feeling' is. It has been described by some as being trapped in the wrong body but other transactivists resent this description.
How does one 'feel' like a woman when being a woman is a learnt behaviour? I agree that the restrictive binary of male and female is frequently undermined (there are intersex people etc) and there are many variations along a spectrum of male and female but we still are mammals who require that binary to reproduce effectively.
Anything other than this is surely just a manifestation of the way a gendered identity is absorbed by women and/or thrust on them due to them being oppressed as a class based upon their reproductive capacity. A man can never know what it is to be part of that class and his idea of what a woman 'is' must be based on superficialities such as dress code etc. You don't become a woman by putting on a dress, so where is female identity located? http://sarahditum.com/2014/06/24/a-hot-woman-on-a-magazine-cover/http://
In terms of the high profile transwomen I was thinking about people like Janet Mock and Laverne Cox, there's another who models for Victoria's secret who's name I've forgotten. Much of the trans debate has become transatlantic due to Twitter and blogging. This has definitely increased the profile for transwomen and meant the debate has reached a wide audience.
I'm loathe to align myself with the radical feminists. many of them get sadistic pleasure from 'doxing' transwomen or misgendering them online. However, there is an equally vocal and aggressive faction of the transactivist community who threaten rape and dismemberment to radical feminists.
The issue is incredibly delicate and complex. My concern has always been about equal rights and non-discrimination etc. But when we drill down into what certain categories mean its not so simple.
In terms of women only spaces: much of the concern is that a late transitioner will have been socialised as male and still have 'male privilege'. In the context of women meeting to discuss experience of sexual abuse etc many feel uncomfortable sharing the space with a transwoman who has previously been part of that culture of male violence even if they've never committed any offence themselves: gender isn't so easily sloughed off, it starts before we even have language and is embedded in our consciousness.
I have friends who are trans (sorry, I know its the worst defense in the world!) but there is sometimes the sense that their political acceptance is at the expense of what feminists have fought for. The use of the word 'cis' to designate women born female ( the idea that our gender identity is in sync with our biological identity) is currently the focus of much debate with even liberal feminists resisting the implications of a term that ignores the difficulties all women have adapting to the restrictions of gender in a patriarchal society.
I'm 'gender critical' and I see in the trans experience the same potential to radically challenge gender norms that feminism also offers. Where this breaks down is when sections of the trans movement dismiss women's experience, or talk about a 'female brain', or try to deny the reality of our equally valid gendered oppression.
Feminists sound like transgender and man hating assholes. Are they all this narrow minded?
In terms of the high profile transwomen I was thinking about people like Janet Mock and Laverne Cox, there's another who models for Victoria's secret who's name I've forgotten. Much of the trans debate has become transatlantic due to Twitter and blogging. This has definitely increased the profile for transwomen and meant the debate has reached a wide audience.
I'm loathe to align myself with the radical feminists. many of them get sadistic pleasure from 'doxing' transwomen or misgendering them online. However, there is an equally vocal and aggressive faction of the transactivist community who threaten rape and dismemberment to radical feminists.
The issue is incredibly delicate and complex. My concern has always been about equal rights and non-discrimination etc. But when we drill down into what certain categories mean its not so simple.
In terms of women only spaces: much of the concern is that a late transitioner will have been socialised as male and still have 'male privilege'. In the context of women meeting to discuss experience of sexual abuse etc many feel uncomfortable sharing the space with a transwoman who has previously been part of that culture of male violence even if they've never committed any offence themselves: gender isn't so easily sloughed off, it starts before we even have language and is embedded in our consciousness.
I have friends who are trans (sorry, I know its the worst defense in the world!) but there is sometimes the sense that their political acceptance is at the expense of what feminists have fought for. The use of the word 'cis' to designate women born female ( the idea that our gender identity is in sync with our biological identity) is currently the focus of much debate with even liberal feminists resisting the implications of a term that ignores the difficulties all women have adapting to the restrictions of gender in a patriarchal society.
I'm 'gender critical' and I see in the trans experience the same potential to radically challenge gender norms that feminism also offers. Where this breaks down is when sections of the trans movement dismiss women's experience, or talk about a 'female brain', or try to deny the reality of our equally valid gendered oppression.
I don't know if Janet and/or Laverne have already undergone surgery but I certainly wouldn't ask either of them. Piers Morgan made that mistake a few months ago. In the UK the likes of Paris Lees, Jane Fae, Juliet Jacques, Sarah Brown, Roz Kaveney are all post-op. The only prominent activist I can think of who isn't yet is Sara Savage, one of the organisers of Trans Pride in Brighton.
I've never seen any trans woman threaten rape or dismemberment though to be honest many can be so argumentative they will happily argue amongst themselves if no radical feminist is available!
I think you may have explained the issue that some have with the word 'cis' as to me it is simply the opposite of 'trans.' Some seem to argue that cis is a slur, but then surely trans would then also be a slur. If I understand your post correctly the issue is not so much the word as the concept of gender?
Feminists sound like transgender and man hating assholes. Are they all this narrow minded?
Feminists have been accused of being man haters for years, its a misreading of feminism which is actually meant to liberate men and women from restrictive gender roles.
Yes, some radical feminists are at war with some of the more extreme transactivists but there are many points between the two where people are in agreement.
I don't know if Janet and/or Laverne have already undergone surgery but I certainly wouldn't ask either of them. Piers Morgan made that mistake a few months ago. In the UK the likes of Paris Lees, Jane Fae, Juliet Jacques, Sarah Brown, Roz Kaveney are all post-op. The only prominent activist I can think of who isn't yet is Sara Savage, one of the organisers of Trans Pride in Brighton.
I've never seen any trans woman threaten rape or dismemberment though to be honest many can be so argumentative they will happily argue amongst themselves if no radical feminist is available!
I think you may have explained the issue that some have with the word 'cis' as to me it is simply the opposite of 'trans.' Some seem to argue that cis is a slur, but then surely trans would then also be a slur. If I understand your post correctly the issue is not so much the word as the concept of gender?
Hi Brynley, there's a blog by a transwoman that I've been trying to find since I saw your reply. She articulates really well, better than I can, the possibility of reaching an understanding between the feminist position and the trans position without either side feeling beleagured or undermined.
There is, as you know, a big row about the use of 'cis'. I see it as simply the same as 'gay' and 'straight' in that it's a term that is useful to define you in contrast to something else but that it doesn't have to erase the problematic relationship many women have to gender. Unfortunately many quite liberal writers such as Glosswitch are now examining these concepts and upsetting a lot of transwomen in the process. However, I do think these things need examining and the recent incident of no-platforming is worrying. Although I can also see that trans women see these debates as predicated on questioning their right to exist.
This is a fascinating subject and one I'm happy to admit I'm still learning about it and trying to see both sides. I'll post that link when I find it!
You make some very valid points. The focus on equal rights at work etc for marginalised groups and fighting discrimination etc is what surely binds anyone interested in such things together. There should be no barriers based on class, race, gender, sexuality etc and this is the foundation for any social justice movement.
So yes, feminists and trans are natural bedfellows in many ways. The problem however seems to come down to how someone defines their identity. Many feminists don't think a late transitioning MtF can really ever be rid of the privileges that growing up in a male dominated society entails.
There is a further argument (I'm playing devil's advocate, don't shoot me) that the very notion of a trans identity is perfectly in sync with a neo-liberal society where individual desire, and making yourself into anything you want to be, is the order of the day. Such a philosophy is not interested in communal responsibility (Thatcher was the starting point with her comment that 'trhere's no such thing as society') and there is a strong link in some parts of the trans movement with a self-interested libertarianism.
You also make the point about seeing transition as a 'perversion'. Again, devil's advocate here, there is a highly contested term called 'autogynephilia' which basically means that men get a sexual thrill from seeing themselves as women. However, transexualism was, and is, seen as a more traditionally defined body dysmorphia and many like to distinguish transexual from transgender as the latter does not always seek full transition through surgery.
It's a fascinating, complex subject.
Most of the trans women I know are quite left-wing but I think you're correct that there's a small but significant minority who are libertarians and not in a nice way. A couple of Lib Dem former-councillors in Cambridge, Nikki Sinclaire used to be an UKIP MEP and of course Kellie stood for mayor as UKIP candidate. Tara Hewitt didn't get anywhere within the Labour Party and is now trying to get selected by the Tories.....no self-interest there then, a conviction politician to the core! The trans 'community' is so small though that it's difficult to read too much into the politics of a small number of them.
Autogynephilia is indeed controversial and largely discredited. Some trans women do get a sexual thrill from seeing themselves as women. So do some cis women when the same tests are carried out on them! Despite this NHS psychiatrists in Gender Identity Clinics still repeatedly ask the transgender women they are treating if they masturbate and what they think about if they do so.
"This only further enforces some type of bias that the transgendered person decides to choose a different identity, rather than have always felt they were of another identity and could easily lead to much discrimination on the issue." from dialectic above
Again, I'm not sure where or what this 'feeling' is. It has been described by some as being trapped in the wrong body but other transactivists resent this description.
How does one 'feel' like a woman when being a woman is a learnt behaviour? I agree that the restrictive binary of male and female is frequently undermined (there are intersex people etc) and there are many variations along a spectrum of male and female but we still are mammals who require that binary to reproduce effectively.
Anything other than this is surely just a manifestation of the way a gendered identity is absorbed by women and/or thrust on them due to them being oppressed as a class based upon their reproductive capacity. A man can never know what it is to be part of that class and his idea of what a woman 'is' must be based on superficialities such as dress code etc. You don't become a woman by putting on a dress, so where is female identity located? http://sarahditum.com/2014/06/24/a-hot-woman-on-a-magazine-cover/http://
Your link does not work for me.
I do not understand the feelings of a trans person but I choose to take them at their word as a good description of what they are witness to as much as a woman has her unique feelings of what it is to be trapped by her biology and 'feels' that this is something the man cannot understand, even though it is as you say 'a learnt behavior'
perhaps she should have no feelings then?
Since when have women and men occupied different classes? It seems to me that by widening a gap between genders you serve the purposes of an outdated argument, which appeals at one point to gender as 'learnt behavior' but also necessitates the gross differences of biology.
What is interesting about the trans question is that it pulls this contradiction wide open and the usual feminist argument will recede unless of course it has the courage to embrace a paradigm shift on this issue. Let's hope so!
Ok, but I was really asking in general terms since we seem to have some experts answering .
It depends very much on the individual. Some trans women are straight before transition and are then lesbian because they are still only attracted to women. I have one friend who was straight and is still straight, she is now only attracted to guys. It's quite common for trans women to be pansexual in that the sex or gender of the partner is just not an issue.
It depends very much on the individual. Some trans women are straight before transition and are then lesbian because they are still only attracted to women. I have one friend who was straight and is still straight, she is now only attracted to guys. It's quite common for trans women to be pansexual in that the sex or gender of the partner is just not an issue.
Thanks Brynley . I certainly got more then I bargained for when I started this thread but it's been very enlightening and I hope others have been enlightened too .
I would just like to point out that these comments were made in 2004.
It is quite normal for a person to go through a process of self-deception, self-loathing etc.. before coming to terms with who they really are.
Comments
I agree, there's definitely something odd about the whole thing, not him wanting to be a woman etc but going into the BB house, 24/7 cameras - just doesn't make sense to me.
It is a bit of a nerve-racking platform to choose but maybe she thought it might be a good way of letting everyone see who she is now so when she comes out, she can more easily get on with her new life? As in a 'take me or leave me' move.
Haven't you seen American Beauty
In terms of the high profile transwomen I was thinking about people like Janet Mock and Laverne Cox, there's another who models for Victoria's secret who's name I've forgotten. Much of the trans debate has become transatlantic due to Twitter and blogging. This has definitely increased the profile for transwomen and meant the debate has reached a wide audience.
I'm loathe to align myself with the radical feminists. many of them get sadistic pleasure from 'doxing' transwomen or misgendering them online. However, there is an equally vocal and aggressive faction of the transactivist community who threaten rape and dismemberment to radical feminists.
The issue is incredibly delicate and complex. My concern has always been about equal rights and non-discrimination etc. But when we drill down into what certain categories mean its not so simple.
In terms of women only spaces: much of the concern is that a late transitioner will have been socialised as male and still have 'male privilege'. In the context of women meeting to discuss experience of sexual abuse etc many feel uncomfortable sharing the space with a transwoman who has previously been part of that culture of male violence even if they've never committed any offence themselves: gender isn't so easily sloughed off, it starts before we even have language and is embedded in our consciousness.
I have friends who are trans (sorry, I know its the worst defense in the world!) but there is sometimes the sense that their political acceptance is at the expense of what feminists have fought for. The use of the word 'cis' to designate women born female ( the idea that our gender identity is in sync with our biological identity) is currently the focus of much debate with even liberal feminists resisting the implications of a term that ignores the difficulties all women have adapting to the restrictions of gender in a patriarchal society.
I'm 'gender critical' and I see in the trans experience the same potential to radically challenge gender norms that feminism also offers. Where this breaks down is when sections of the trans movement dismiss women's experience, or talk about a 'female brain', or try to deny the reality of our equally valid gendered oppression.
You make some very valid points. The focus on equal rights at work etc for marginalised groups and fighting discrimination etc is what surely binds anyone interested in such things together. There should be no barriers based on class, race, gender, sexuality etc and this is the foundation for any social justice movement.
So yes, feminists and trans are natural bedfellows in many ways. The problem however seems to come down to how someone defines their identity. Many feminists don't think a late transitioning MtF can really ever be rid of the privileges that growing up in a male dominated society entails.
There is a further argument (I'm playing devil's advocate, don't shoot me) that the very notion of a trans identity is perfectly in sync with a neo-liberal society where individual desire, and making yourself into anything you want to be, is the order of the day. Such a philosophy is not interested in communal responsibility (Thatcher was the starting point with her comment that 'trhere's no such thing as society') and there is a strong link in some parts of the trans movement with a self-interested libertarianism.
You also make the point about seeing transition as a 'perversion'. Again, devil's advocate here, there is a highly contested term called 'autogynephilia' which basically means that men get a sexual thrill from seeing themselves as women. However, transexualism was, and is, seen as a more traditionally defined body dysmorphia and many like to distinguish transexual from transgender as the latter does not always seek full transition through surgery.
It's a fascinating, complex subject.
Do you sula? Do you really?
They are a dwindling species due to me boring them at great length on a variety of subjects.;-)
This only works if privilege relates to the male vs female binary. Not all the injustices of the world fall so easily in to this categorization. The privileged are few, and more often male, but in no way should this suggest that all males fall in to this closed class. I would imagine if we are to take the transsexual and transgendered, male to female, persons point of view ;they may never have took it as privilege; I can see how this would further undermine a radical feminists need to force this binary, hence those who transgress it may seem like a threat.
This only further enforces some type of bias that the transgendered person decides to choose a different identity, rather than have always felt they were of another identity and could easily lead to much discrimination on the issue. Nobody would dare say that homosexuality is a choice would they?
As for ' not being interested in communal responsibility' what could that even mean when it comes to someones identity? Is the onus not on the community itself to be acceptant, not the individual to always fit in to the dictates of the many, especially with regard to who they are essentially. I imagine if someone feels whole they would wholly be able to fulfill their responsibilities to their community and society.
BIB : I did not say I would see it as such, I said it might be perceived as such, initially, by a male to female trans person's peers in the male environment. As for the rest I am aware of the difference between transexuals transvestites, cross dressers etc…(it's important, I'd say not to confuse these issues), though I am sure there is gross over- simplification and generalizations of each.
It's tricky defending points that I made when I hope I was clear that I didn't necessarily hold them myself!
The issue of 'choice' is interesting and many gay and lesbians would certainly prefer to say they'd chosen to be gay rather than say they were 'born this way' which implies some kind of innate, and thus possibly genetic, sexual preference.
http://www.newstatesman.com/society/2014/07/julie-bindel-theres-no-gay-gene-and-i-love-idea-i-chose-be-lesbian
It's tricky for me also, as I am not transgendered ( though I have a close friend who is) and I do not consider myself feminist (too limiting of a term) rather I would consider myself interested in addressing many social inequalities and, though not trained in gender studies, I am trained in critical thinking, which endorses an interest in the above.
As for the issue of 'choice' to do with a persons sexual identity, I can see where you may perceive an innate/biological influence as reductionist ; by that criteria seeing everything as a 'construct' or choice is an equally reductionist way of thinking when in the real world our desires are often a mesh of deep-seated urges and passions(not to mention a wide scope of external determinations) and reasoned choice on whether to fulfill them or not.
Again, I'm not sure where or what this 'feeling' is. It has been described by some as being trapped in the wrong body but other transactivists resent this description.
How does one 'feel' like a woman when being a woman is a learnt behaviour? I agree that the restrictive binary of male and female is frequently undermined (there are intersex people etc) and there are many variations along a spectrum of male and female but we still are mammals who require that binary to reproduce effectively.
Anything other than this is surely just a manifestation of the way a gendered identity is absorbed by women and/or thrust on them due to them being oppressed as a class based upon their reproductive capacity. A man can never know what it is to be part of that class and his idea of what a woman 'is' must be based on superficialities such as dress code etc. You don't become a woman by putting on a dress, so where is female identity located?
http://sarahditum.com/2014/06/24/a-hot-woman-on-a-magazine-cover/http://
Feminists sound like transgender and man hating assholes. Are they all this narrow minded?
I don't know if Janet and/or Laverne have already undergone surgery but I certainly wouldn't ask either of them. Piers Morgan made that mistake a few months ago. In the UK the likes of Paris Lees, Jane Fae, Juliet Jacques, Sarah Brown, Roz Kaveney are all post-op. The only prominent activist I can think of who isn't yet is Sara Savage, one of the organisers of Trans Pride in Brighton.
I've never seen any trans woman threaten rape or dismemberment though to be honest many can be so argumentative they will happily argue amongst themselves if no radical feminist is available!
I think you may have explained the issue that some have with the word 'cis' as to me it is simply the opposite of 'trans.' Some seem to argue that cis is a slur, but then surely trans would then also be a slur. If I understand your post correctly the issue is not so much the word as the concept of gender?
Feminists have been accused of being man haters for years, its a misreading of feminism which is actually meant to liberate men and women from restrictive gender roles.
Yes, some radical feminists are at war with some of the more extreme transactivists but there are many points between the two where people are in agreement.
Hi Brynley, there's a blog by a transwoman that I've been trying to find since I saw your reply. She articulates really well, better than I can, the possibility of reaching an understanding between the feminist position and the trans position without either side feeling beleagured or undermined.
There is, as you know, a big row about the use of 'cis'. I see it as simply the same as 'gay' and 'straight' in that it's a term that is useful to define you in contrast to something else but that it doesn't have to erase the problematic relationship many women have to gender. Unfortunately many quite liberal writers such as Glosswitch are now examining these concepts and upsetting a lot of transwomen in the process. However, I do think these things need examining and the recent incident of no-platforming is worrying. Although I can also see that trans women see these debates as predicated on questioning their right to exist.
This is a fascinating subject and one I'm happy to admit I'm still learning about it and trying to see both sides. I'll post that link when I find it!
Most of the trans women I know are quite left-wing but I think you're correct that there's a small but significant minority who are libertarians and not in a nice way. A couple of Lib Dem former-councillors in Cambridge, Nikki Sinclaire used to be an UKIP MEP and of course Kellie stood for mayor as UKIP candidate. Tara Hewitt didn't get anywhere within the Labour Party and is now trying to get selected by the Tories.....no self-interest there then, a conviction politician to the core! The trans 'community' is so small though that it's difficult to read too much into the politics of a small number of them.
Autogynephilia is indeed controversial and largely discredited. Some trans women do get a sexual thrill from seeing themselves as women. So do some cis women when the same tests are carried out on them! Despite this NHS psychiatrists in Gender Identity Clinics still repeatedly ask the transgender women they are treating if they masturbate and what they think about if they do so.
I think she said something along the lines of having no interest in having an partner and sees her future as being on her own.
Your link does not work for me.
I do not understand the feelings of a trans person but I choose to take them at their word as a good description of what they are witness to as much as a woman has her unique feelings of what it is to be trapped by her biology and 'feels' that this is something the man cannot understand, even though it is as you say 'a learnt behavior'
perhaps she should have no feelings then?
Since when have women and men occupied different classes? It seems to me that by widening a gap between genders you serve the purposes of an outdated argument, which appeals at one point to gender as 'learnt behavior' but also necessitates the gross differences of biology.
What is interesting about the trans question is that it pulls this contradiction wide open and the usual feminist argument will recede unless of course it has the courage to embrace a paradigm shift on this issue. Let's hope so!
Ok, but I was really asking in general terms since we seem to have some experts answering .
It depends very much on the individual. Some trans women are straight before transition and are then lesbian because they are still only attracted to women. I have one friend who was straight and is still straight, she is now only attracted to guys. It's quite common for trans women to be pansexual in that the sex or gender of the partner is just not an issue.
Thanks Brynley . I certainly got more then I bargained for when I started this thread but it's been very enlightening and I hope others have been enlightened too .
It is quite normal for a person to go through a process of self-deception, self-loathing etc.. before coming to terms with who they really are.
Bizarre!
Who says?