Kramer "pulls a Mel"

24

Comments

  • InkblotInkblot Posts: 26,889
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    His comment on Letterman was that he needs to do personal work. I took that to mean that he didn't plan to make any more public statements; he also said he tried to find the hecklers to apologise but they had left the club. I've never seen him live and the clips on youtube seem to be quite old, but his explanation on Letterman was that as a comedian he needs to push the envelope so his reaction to any hecklers would have been as extreme, so I assume that anyone going to see Richards would expect the unexpected. Maybe he just wasn't funny that night, but heckling is a pointless act unless it's done with wit and originality.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 19,918
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    If his comments don't make him racist then I don't know what will.

    Maybe he needs to burn a few crosses. :rolleyes:
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 87
    Forum Member
    I bet Ron Atkinson wishes he was American. An apology makes that alright over the pond apparently.
  • spankyplugsspankyplugs Posts: 14,596
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    cybergirl3 wrote:
    If his comments don't make him racist then I don't know what will.

    Maybe he needs to burn a few crosses. :rolleyes:

    He may possibly be a racist, but screaming about lynching n*ggers on stage isn't exactly cast-iron proof. Particularly when in the 57 years previous there has been no indication at all.
    seizure wrote:
    I bet Ron Atkinson wishes he was American. An apology makes that alright over the pond apparently.

    It hasn't been swept under the carpet, but by the same token he's not being instantly demonised as Atkinson was.

    There's a certain irony in completely ostracising someone in order to teach them about intolerance. But then Americans don't 'get' irony, so let's just line up and slag the country off.
  • NathalieRNathalieR Posts: 16,004
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    I dont think what he said is excusable at all. He probably offended a huge amount of people with his racist comments (which imo makes him a racist) and thats not acceptable. Other comedians do it too maybe (well maybe not on specific people in the audience but in general), whatever race that is, and i dont think that is acceptable either, however we are talking about what this guy said and not about them.
  • AgamemnonAgamemnon Posts: 3,762
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    He was pissed off with an audience member who was black and wanted to piss the guy off and forgot that by using that word in the way that he did he would be pissing off more than just that person. But he was only attacking the arsehole who was heckling him.

    That's my reading of it anyway.

    And until black rap stars and comedians start getting seriously ignored or told off when they use that word repeatedly as they so often do, I think it's perfectly fair for anyone else to.

    Ice Cube comes out with all sorts of racial slurs on some of his albums, yet seems to be allowed to get away with it, or even celebrated for it because he's black.
  • pxd867pxd867 Posts: 11,489
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    I honestly think it was an attempt at humour more than anything, particualrly when you consider there were quite a few blacks in the audience.

    Just didn't seem to work. I think the two guys weren't enirely innocent either, calling him a cracker (which is racist, despite them saying it isn't)
  • NathalieRNathalieR Posts: 16,004
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Agamemnon wrote:
    He was pissed off with an audience member who was black and wanted to piss the guy off and forgot that by using that word in the way that he did he would be pissing off more than just that person. But he was only attacking the arsehole who was heckling him.

    That's my reading of it anyway.

    And until black rap stars and comedians start getting seriously ignored or told off when they use that word repeatedly as they so often do, I think it's perfectly fair for anyone else to.

    Ice Cube comes out with all sorts of racial slurs on some of his albums, yet seems to be allowed to get away with it, or even celebrated for it because he's black.

    The guy shouldnt have heckled him but there are ways of dealing with it without resorting to racism.

    Im not saying the black rappers etc are right for their use of words etc (whole new thread!) but it doesnt mean this guy can get away with what he said.

    If someone murders someone else, you dont say "well if they can do it im going to murder someone too"
  • NathalieRNathalieR Posts: 16,004
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Also IF the audience members were racist to him (hasnt been comfirmed) it still does not excuse what he said.
  • spankyplugsspankyplugs Posts: 14,596
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    NathalieR wrote:
    Also IF the audience members were racist to him (hasnt been comfirmed) it still does not excuse what he said.


    But let's not forget that making racist comments doesn't necessarily make someone a racist. Ignorant, stupid, vastly insensitive, what have you - but true racism is far, far more than words.
  • NathalieRNathalieR Posts: 16,004
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    But let's not forget that making racist comments doesn't necessarily make someone a racist. Ignorant, stupid, vastly insensitive, what have you - but true racism is far, far more than words.


    Ok maybe thats true.

    However this guy seems to have gone totally overboard, not the one word here and there, it was a proper rant and he didnt stop at one remark.

    There are obviously worse crimes in the world, and he did apologise granted, all i am saying is i dont see how in anyway his comments can be excused.

    I would be saying the same if the roles were reversed and it was , say, Chris Rock in his shoes or something and when a thread comes up about Chris Rock lauching a racist rant on audience members i will say the same.
  • spankyplugsspankyplugs Posts: 14,596
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    I'm not sure anyone is particularly looking to excuse what he said - nobody can deny how it was just plain wrong - but it seemed to escalate to a point where there was no going back. The biggest problem I had with it was although he's going off at some hecklers, what he's doing is offending people on the periphery also. Apparently he went back and apologised to everybody he can find, but the damage had been done (in more ways than one)


    There's no way his actions should be excused, but I'd also hate to see him automatically vilified as some kind of race-hate advocate when he could have been merely pushing the wrong buttons with disastrous results.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,317
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    cybergirl3 wrote:
    If his comments don't make him racist then I don't know what will.
    Picking up a stethoscope and listening to someone's heart doesn't make me a doctor either. It certainly wasn't the best way to deal with the situation, but there's no reason to believe he's a racist... unless you really, really want to.
    Agamemnon wrote:
    He was pissed off with an audience member who was black and wanted to piss the guy off and forgot that by using that word in the way that he did he would be pissing off more than just that person. But he was only attacking the arsehole who was heckling him.

    That's my reading of it anyway.

    And until black rap stars and comedians start getting seriously ignored or told off when they use that word repeatedly as they so often do, I think it's perfectly fair for anyone else to.

    Ice Cube comes out with all sorts of racial slurs on some of his albums, yet seems to be allowed to get away with it, or even celebrated for it because he's black.
    Exactly. Good post. There's far too much hypocrisy and hysteria surrounding these issues.
  • pxd867pxd867 Posts: 11,489
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    NathalieR wrote:
    Also IF the audience members were racist to him (hasnt been comfirmed) it still does not excuse what he said.
    It's not an IF- it is recorded.

    It was said in response to what he said, it is not clear whether they made these comments before it kicked off.

    They had certainly been making their opinions known beforehand on the show and were pretty annoying apparently.

    Like I say, with there being a few black people in the audience, I think it was meant to be humour.
  • NathalieRNathalieR Posts: 16,004
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    I'm not sure anyone is particularly looking to excuse what he said - nobody can deny how it was just plain wrong - but it seemed to escalate to a point where there was no going back. The biggest problem I had with it was although he's going off at some hecklers, what he's doing is offending people on the periphery also. Apparently he went back and apologised to everybody he can find, but the damage had been done (in more ways than one)


    There's no way his actions should be excused, but I'd also hate to see him automatically vilified as some kind of race-hate advocate when he could have been merely pushing the wrong buttons with disastrous results.

    Well i dont know the guy so I wouldnt just vilify the guy etc etc but what he said was out of order and the critiscm he will get is justified imo. When you are in the public eye you just cannot say things like that. (or ever really!)
  • spankyplugsspankyplugs Posts: 14,596
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    NathalieR wrote:
    Well i dont know the guy so I wouldnt just vilify the guy etc etc but what he said was out of order and the critiscm he will get is justified imo. When you are in the public eye you just cannot say things like that. (or ever really!)

    I'm not going to disagree that he deserves criticism, just not to be labelled alongside Klan members (I've seen this already, although it was hopefully in jest)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 528
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    It all begs the question... can there be reparation / forgiveness / rehabilitation for these incidents? No matter how abhorrent his remarks (I haven't read them in full), I find remarks in the press along the lines of 'his media career is probably over' really worrying - I'd be interested to know what others on this forum think
  • NathalieRNathalieR Posts: 16,004
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Picking up a stethoscope and listening to someone's heart doesn't make me a doctor either. It certainly wasn't the best way to deal with the situation, but there's no reason to believe he's a racist... unless you really, really want to.QUOTE]

    Ok cool so do you agree that all the back rappers are not racist when they say similar things in their lyrics for example?
  • NathalieRNathalieR Posts: 16,004
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    WatfordKev wrote:
    It all begs the question... can there be reparation / forgiveness / rehabilitation for these incidents? No matter how abhorrent his remarks (I haven't read them in full), I find remarks in the press along the lines of 'his media career is probably over' really worrying - I'd be interested to know what others on this forum think

    I dont agree with his career being over, just the same as i totally was against Big Ron's career allegedly being over but in whatever way, he should be made accountable for his actions like anyone else would and should.
  • InkblotInkblot Posts: 26,889
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    WatfordKev wrote:
    It all begs the question... can there be reparation / forgiveness / rehabilitation for these incidents? No matter how abhorrent his remarks (I haven't read them in full), I find remarks in the press along the lines of 'his media career is probably over' really worrying - I'd be interested to know what others on this forum think
    He looked absolutely haunted on the Letterman clip, I think he realised the scale of the problem but at the same time he was also appalled that he had lost control so badly and that will have damaged his confidence. If he can get more film or theatre roles, I'm sure the controversy will be good box-office, but he'll have to convince producers he's worth the risk.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,317
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    WatfordKev wrote:
    It all begs the question... can there be reparation / forgiveness / rehabilitation for these incidents? No matter how abhorrent his remarks (I haven't read them in full), I find remarks in the press along the lines of 'his media career is probably over' really worrying - I'd be interested to know what others on this forum think
    I don't know what kind of a clown would say that, considering that his media career was for all intents and purposes over once Seinfeld finished. This won't make a great deal of difference in the grand scheme of things.
    NathalieR wrote:
    Ok cool so do you agree that all the back rappers are not racist when they say similar things in their lyrics for example?
    No, I think you've missed the point, if you think that's how it works. Unlike some people around here, I don't make sweeping generalisations. I look at each case and draw my conclusions from the evidence that's available to me, so I can't say that all the black rappers are not racist. I'm quite sure some of them are, and that some of them are not, and I'm certainly not convinced that Richards is.
  • spankyplugsspankyplugs Posts: 14,596
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    I'm certain that a career could continue. Elvis Costello being a prime example;



    Costello's success in the U.S. was bruised for a time in the late 1970s when, during a drunken argument with Stephen Stills and Bonnie Bramlett in a Columbus, Ohio, Holiday Inn hotel bar, Costello referred to James Brown as a "jive-ass ******," then upped the ante by pronouncing Ray Charles a "blind, ignorant ******."

    Bramlett and friends had evidently been baiting Costello with derisive comments about British rock music in general and "sawed-off Limey"-type comments aimed at him in particular. A contrite Costello apologised at a New York City press conference a few days later, claiming that he had been drunk and had been attempting to be obnoxious in order to bring the conversation to a swift conclusion, not anticipating that Bramlett would bring his comments to the press. According to Costello, "it became necessary for me to outrage these people with about the most obnoxious and offensive remarks that I could muster." In his liner notes for the expanded version of Get Happy!!, Costello writes that some time after the incident he had declined an offer to meet Charles out of guilt and embarrassment, though Charles himself had graciously forgiven Costello ("Drunken talk isn't meant to be printed in the paper").
  • NathalieRNathalieR Posts: 16,004
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    I don't know what kind of a clown would say that, considering that his media career was for all intents and purposes over once Seinfeld finished. This won't make a great deal of difference in the grand scheme of things.

    No, I think you've missed the point, if you think that's how it works. Unlike some people around here, I don't make sweeping generalisations. I look at each case and draw my conclusions from the evidence that's available to me, so I can't say that all the black rappers are not racist. I'm quite sure some of them are, and that some of them are not, and I'm certainly not convinced that Richards is.

    I dont think I've missed the point at all, just asked you a simple question which you answered.

    I can get angry beyond belief at people if attacked, and if they happen to be of a different race than myself I still just wouldnt think to say the things he came out with. It just wouldnt enter my mind frame to go on like he did, a real rant not even just the one word abuse, and i think anyone who, when pushed or otherwise, comes out with all of that, you have to think where does that come from and why would they think to say that when there are a hundred of other ways to insult someone without being racist. I think im afraid people will probably label him a racist now and the only person he has to blame about that is himself.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,317
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    NathalieR wrote:
    I can get angry beyond belief at people if attacked, and if they happen to be of a different race than myself I still just wouldnt think to say the things he came out with. It just wouldnt enter my mind frame to go on like he did, a real rant not even just the one word abuse, and i think anyone who, when pushed or otherwise, comes out with all of that, you have to think where does that come from and why would they think to say that when there are a hundred of other ways to insult someone without being racist.
    But are those other ways as effective? I actually don't think he was deliberately reaching for the "biggest gun", as it were, but if you have ever seen his act, it's not particularly funny, and it's very much all over the place, and what he was doing seemed to be consistent with that process. He just threw something out there and went too far down the wrong road. A better comedian or a smarter person would have come up with something more intelligent, but Richards doesn't seem to be smart or a good comedian.
    NathalieR wrote:
    I think im afraid people will probably label him a racist now and the only person he has to blame about that is himself.
    Indeed, but that doesn't make the label or accusation any more true.
  • NathalieRNathalieR Posts: 16,004
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    But are those other ways as effective? I actually don't think he was deliberately reaching for the "biggest gun", as it were, but if you have ever seen his act, it's not particularly funny, and it's very much all over the place, and what he was doing seemed to be consistent with that process. He just threw something out there and went too far down the wrong road. A better comedian or a smarter person would have come up with something more intelligent, but Richards doesn't seem to be smart or a good comedian.

    Indeed, but that doesn't make the label or accusation any more true.

    I dont have any idea why he chose to say what he said, probably only he will know, despite all our speculating but im also sure that people that are racist all have their own reasons as to why they say/do certain things.

    I think some calling him a racist after saying what he did is justified. If I had a rant about homosexuals, calling them derogatory names that you would only ever link to homosexuals, people would view me as being homophobic which would be fair enough. Like i said, it says alot about him that in a fit of anger (or trying to be funny, which ever way it was) he chose to go down that route. The people heckling him seem like they were bang out of order but im sure he could have thrown alot of insults at them without metioning race and as a result offending probably a hell of a lot of people. I dont want to see a man lose his career over it or anything like that, but im afraid he will have to accept that many people will now label him a racist and he has nothing to complain about if people do label him as such even if harsh.
Sign In or Register to comment.