Peeps are hampered I agree, but that's what I'm saying about paying the price. Don't we all have to weigh up the price of going along with the majority even when we disagree. Not that we will always pipe up (because there's a price to pay), but that we'll at least evaluate the cost and benefit by reference to our personal morality, and not just take the path of least resistance with society's morality.
And that's why I mentioned 1930s Germany, cos that's a real life example where people chose to put first their own jobs, family and standing in society, rather than really evaluate the growing evidence around them and pay the price which anyone with decent personal standards imo should have.
The real difficulty I see is that because so many of us have made so many compromises on this point in lots of small areas of our daily lives (for all the good reasons you've indicated), if there ever was a massive dilemma (like 1930s) I doubt many would be equipped to face it because they're so used to flowing with the majority. And relying on politicians to change public opinion for the better (a la Churchill) isn't something I'd put much faith in. Hence my pessimism about the hypothetical outcome!
I do take your point though that some have more freedom than others to eschew party lines eg, because of financial or personal circumstances. But personally, I'd still hope everybody has defined lines which they wouldn't be prepared to cross, whatever public opinion or financial rewards might be. And in the context of the book, mistreating servants really ought to be one of those.
Fantastic post Alex - I agree it's so important to maintain standards in the little things, both for themselves, but also because in that way we keep up a personal and social standard which we would need in case of major crisis. The building blocks of civilisation and all that....
And concerning servants, a lot of us have 'help' even today - in fact the service industries are growing. How many of us employ cleaners, gardeners, childminders / nannies, window cleaners, odd job men, etc? The organisation is different in the UK but we still have 'help'.
So I haven't read the book, not sure whether I'm qualified to comment . . . . but some interesting stuff here. So if it's permitted, here are a couple of observations:
Q3: my answer is no. Lindy focused on the willingness to forgive and I agree with that bit, but I want to focus on what I see is more the sentiment behind the question which is a willingness to stand apart from cultural norms. This is something I've always felt strongly about and look to surround myself with peeps who have the strength to do likewise . . . not the permanent rebels for rebellion's sake, but rather those who have a mind of their own and are willing to pay the price, including being 'ostracised' from the mainstream sometimes. So yes I'm sure it's understandable that the majority cluster together for security and many will feel there's safety in numbers, but in my book that doesn't excuse them. I expect peeps to have their own inbuilt standards which should defy the changing times and one's own personal advantage. So that if the conditions of 1930s Germany were ever repeated, the outcome might be different this time. Personally, I'm not optimistic on that score!
Q5: In response to what kfb said, I was wondering how much of this might actually not always be a colour thing, more the master/servant dynamic in operation. I'm sure some people pay their money and think that gives them the right to forget the normal standards of respect and decency towards a fellow human being. If they're insecure and inadequate in the first place, it might even make them feel better about themselves. For anyone who watches Mad Men, the dynamic between Betty (insecure white housewife) and Carla (black maid) was an interesting one. Undertones of racism in it (in line with the standards of the 1960s), but really more about Betty's snobbish insecurity tbh.
Q3: I agree with you, Alex. Having had parents who had to flee the Nazis, I wonder if I'd have been able to stand out from the crowd and stand up for what I believe. Both my parents' families were made up of 2 'sides': one Jewish, the other Baptists - even though my parents met in England. The Baptist side of both families protected the Jewish side of the family - I don't know how, but they did, and all my relatives survived the war. Pretty remarkable! And that was in Berlin and Hamburg.
I'm sure some of you have read The Reader or seen the film with Kate Winslett. I think that throws up these issues very keenly and made me think that if I'd been a mother with children, for instance, would I have been able to risk my family? I don't know because I've never ever been in that life or death situation. I've been in situations where I've stuck my neck out to stand up for someone being bullied or abused on the street - but whether I'd go further than that, I don't know.
In The Help, it's the black women who take the risks - of losing their homes, of themselves and their families being harassed, even strung up maybe ('Strange Fruit' by Billie Holliday). Not Skeeter, the young white would be journalist trying to make it big in media world. Yes, she may have been ostracised for her actions but she'd be able to leave and make her home and career elsewhere.
Q5: Re Alex's point above. I agree. We see that situation in homes, offices, schools, all sorts of places of work. Bullying, tyranny - whatever you wish to call it. We would hope that people would behave with courtesy and respect to other people, whatever their position in our hierarchical society. I was shocked to read Lindy's story about a very simple situation. We know that a lot of people are still racist but most people in their day to day living manage not to make it so obvious.
THE HELP - KATHRYN STOCKETT
Set in Jackson, Mississippi in the 1960s
5. Do you think that there are still vestiges of prejudice in relationships where people of colour or different races work for one other?
This question is a mine field...and places like radio 5 live...exploit it on a daily basis...in their phone ins.....:D
But Yes unfortunately I do..... not on an individual basis....cos i think most people are aware enough to not discriminate against people they actually know and like.....
but I do think there are vestiges around.....
for instance although I think my kids generation, and the prevalent attitude of society, is much more tolerant as a general rule....and prejudice is much less overt and more frowned upon......
if you scratch the surface...there are still some quite deep seated objections.....that are almost allowed to fester and become worse...because we arent allowed to openly discuss the issues raised.....
here in the east.. for instance .there are huge potential issues about the migrants from eastern europe...who come over to the uk to do farm work etc.....
I personally like the idea of a multicultural society....and to me Britain has always been a county with massive immigration which has led to our huge cultural diversity......so I dont have any problem at all with it......
....but.......I have heard so many people complain that they take the low paid farming jobs. at less than the legal minimum wage....so that UK residents lose out on employment opportunities..... for me to not think that this is an issue that needs to be addressed.
the issue is that Unscrupulous farmers do seem to be by passing english law....and getting in cheap labour from abroad..... but it doesnt take much to slant that into an anti emigration feeling....
and then there is also the issue of how much extra pressure economic migrants place on stretched resources of the National Health service and Education services....
im sure these issues wouldnt matter nearly so much in a time of economic plenty...
But at the moment.........sadly they might....
I'd love to agree with you about our children's generation being more accepting of living among people from different cultures. Wouldn't that be wonderful? Unfortunately, I don't think it's generally the case. I think that publicly definitely there is less racism than among our parents' generation, for instance. People in cities are on the whole generally open to new experiences brought to them by different cultures. The world has opened up through travel and TV. But I know there are pockets in the UK - rural and urban- where there is a high degree of racism - some very overt. I agree with you, Augusta, also that in times of economic difficulties, any subdued elements of racism are likely to break out and be used by extremist groups for their own ends. That is, after all,, what happened under the Nazis. In times of recession/depression spread fear and loathing of a group who seem better off than you. Divide and rule.
Fortunately we now have laws in this country that preclude such behaviour officially and I think people are much more able to gather together and stand up for what they believe in. You only have to look at what is happening in Arab societies where you would never have believed such revolutions could ever happen. And surprise, surprise, a lot of them are led or populated by women - the most oppressed in those societies. All helped by modern technology - not quite so easy to control as physical borders.
First of all, could I say that I loved The Help I found it moving, exciting, tense and even very funny in parts (eg the toilets dumped outside Miss Hilly's house, and the whole thing about the pie ) The scenes of the white ladies at coffee mornings as reported by the servants were satire of a very high order.
The novel was about human and social issues, but cracked along at a great pace - I think it was mostly written in the present tense, and this made it feel very immediate. Oh, and I also loved the accents. On the first page, I thought I might be irritated - but no, the way the dialogue was written, I felt I could hear every character separately, as though I were in the room with them.
I felt that the most admirable character was Abilene - she embodied all the kinds of virtues I'd like to have myself, but could never live up to. The relationsip that I enjoyed most, however, was the one that developed between Minnie and Miss Celia, the 'poor white trash' girl who was if anything more at sea than the black servants, having left her home community and not found another one where she was accepted. I found her story very touching. And Minnie's protection of her, despite everything, even more so.
I feel the same as you about the book, Lindy. I found myself immediately hearing the voices in my head of all the characters. I thought they were all wonderful. Yes, Miss Hilly was perhaps a caricature. But I bet there are loads of her around in the Southern states.
Have been reading through in fascination - haven't had a chance to read all of The Help yet. However, it does take me back to my childhood, in that we had maids, a cook, a nanny for a while, a gardener.
Growing up in the Foreign Office - at least when you are abroad (when you are at home the diplomat is a low-paid civil servant, abroad it's a different scenario) - you are provided with a nice home, various servants depending upon where you live (in my case Africa initially and then Mexico). Servants (my mother and I shudder in shame to even say we had a maid) were provided and paid for by the Diplomatic Service and it was, at that time, the norm.
As a child you see things differently, my memories are of those working in our house being our friends - my older brother was never anywhere but at our gardener's (Shaka was his name) side, although I doubt the relationship with my parents was quite like that. My parents were very uncomfortable about having servants around and brought me up to understand and know that we were all equal no matter what me might hear elsewhere. I know that there were some familes that took to this kind of life more easily than others and my parents never quite got used to the situation.
In Mexico we had a maid (Estella) who lived with us during the week and went home to her children at weekends. At night she would go to hairdressing classes as she wanted to work in a job where she could be with her family, who didn't live in the City. She was a wonderful woman and we loved her so much. I look back now and wonder how things went with her after we left, and think about how hard if must have been to be separated from her children all week. I remember her telling me that my Dad was the only boss who had bought the maid a TV for their room, of all the others that she knew. Again, I do look back in shame that we had servants and yet I wonder why I'm ashamed, when I talk to my parents about it they told me how happy Estella was to have regular full-time work, earn enough to learn hairdressing and the time off to go to school. She said not everybody in her town was so lucky. Must have been awful for her taking me and my brother to see the Osmonds don't know why I thought of that
Well that was totally irrelevant except that all the book discussion reminded me of those times, and make me glad that I came out of that experience with an absolute hatred of any kind of class or racist talk. Another memory is of being hit several times by a couple of Mexican girls who thought I was American, and I remember shouting through my tears that I was English, not American. They backed off after that, but it sticks with me cause that itself was a racist act.
Anyway, sorry for the ramble, it just brought back some memories.
For sure the basic human need to "belong" is central to so much of human life, and how groups are controlled and manipulated. I see it in the workplace everyday, often in a bad way. I guess the positive side of the human need to belong is that it's the glue needed for a cohesive society. Getting the balance right between commonality of values (to bind society) and independence of views (to stop abuse of power) is always a tricky one. But it's the latter which invariably needs the most help imo!
Once you've reached a point of critical mass in the mainstream, you can then start to make people feel excluded from the latest club, or trend, or whatever it is . . . . and make them decide whether to change and jump on board the departing bus. So for example you have Hollywood defining a set of values along the lines of US public opinion and then exporting it globally.
Comparing UK with US, I doubt the need to belong is much different here, although perhaps institutionally we're a bit less straight-jacketed than say your example of the Southern States. After all, historically we've benefited from a healthy brand of eccentricity and irreverence towards authority . . . and Thatcher's 'revolution' against the old style clubs.
this is such a valid point.......
certain people have always been the arbiters of taste and opinion......
and it writers and lawyers etc who are often those who challenge or question these values....
look at the recent action in the leverson enquiry...finally questioning the way some members of the gutter press have been operating for years......by bugging phones and putting pressure to bear on people...to encourage them to say something in a particular way:(:(
Q3: I agree with you, Alex. Having had parents who had to flee the Nazis, I wonder if I'd have been able to stand out from the crowd and stand up for what I believe. Both my parents' families were made up of 2 'sides': one Jewish, the other Baptists - even though my parents met in England. The Baptist side of both families protected the Jewish side of the family - I don't know how, but they did, and all my relatives survived the war. Pretty remarkable! And that was in Berlin and Hamburg.
I'm sure some of you have read The Reader or seen the film with Kate Winslett. I think that throws up these issues very keenly and made me think that if I'd been a mother with children, for instance, would I have been able to risk my family? I don't know because I've never ever been in that life or death situation. I've been in situations where I've stuck my neck out to stand up for someone being bullied or abused on the street - but whether I'd go further than that, I don't know.
In The Help, it's the black women who take the risks - of losing their homes, of themselves and their families being harassed, even strung up maybe ('Strange Fruit' by Billie Holliday). Not Skeeter, the young white would be journalist trying to make it big in media world. Yes, she may have been ostracised for her actions but she'd be able to leave and make her home and career elsewhere.
Q5: Re Alex's point above. I agree. We see that situation in homes, offices, schools, all sorts of places of work. Bullying, tyranny - whatever you wish to call it. We would hope that people would behave with courtesy and respect to other people, whatever their position in our hierarchical society. I was shocked to read Lindy's story about a very simple situation. We know that a lot of people are still racist but most people in their day to day living manage not to make it so obvious.
re the BIB I noticed this as well.........its skeeter that raises it, and who basically takes the credit...but its the black maids who are risking almost everything........
its so unfair.....:(.
and I saw the film 'The Reader' as well, which raised so many questions.......and made it so obvious how hard it must have been.....to challenge things.....
strange how it was almost seen that not being able to read...was seen as being worse...and less easy to explain...than being a prison guard and not caring at all for your prisoners......
and there was so much in there of scapegoating the outsider...or the ignorant.....so that blame can be shifted away from some onto others....
even though ive studied the period of history within Nazi Germany, ive never properly understood the holocaust....
I almost think a film like 'cabaret'.....gets closest......showing a country on the edge of desperation because of the relentless economic depression....searching desperately for a way out....and following blindly the Nazi party... who were offering some kind of strong leadership.......
Why so many people chose to follow the nazis so blindly I have no idea.....
Have been reading through in fascination - haven't had a chance to read all of The Help yet. However, it does take me back to my childhood, in that we had maids, a cook, a nanny for a while, a gardener.
Growing up in the Foreign Office - at least when you are abroad (when you are at home the diplomat is a low-paid civil servant, abroad it's a different scenario) - you are provided with a nice home, various servants depending upon where you live (in my case Africa initially and then Mexico). Servants (my mother and I shudder in shame to even say we had a maid) were provided and paid for by the Diplomatic Service and it was, at that time, the norm.
As a child you see things differently, my memories are of those working in our house being our friends - my older brother was never anywhere but at our gardener's (Shaka was his name) side, although I doubt the relationship with my parents was quite like that. My parents were very uncomfortable about having servants around and brought me up to understand and know that we were all equal no matter what me might hear elsewhere. I know that there were some familes that took to this kind of life more easily than others and my parents never quite got used to the situation.
In Mexico we had a maid (Estella) who lived with us during the week and went home to her children at weekends. At night she would go to hairdressing classes as she wanted to work in a job where she could be with her family, who didn't live in the City. She was a wonderful woman and we loved her so much. I look back now and wonder how things went with her after we left, and think about how hard if must have been to be separated from her children all week. I remember her telling me that my Dad was the only boss who had bought the maid a TV for their room, of all the others that she knew. Again, I do look back in shame that we had servants and yet I wonder why I'm ashamed, when I talk to my parents about it they told me how happy Estella was to have regular full-time work, earn enough to learn hairdressing and the time off to go to school. She said not everybody in her town was so lucky. Must have been awful for her taking me and my brother to see the Osmonds don't know why I thought of that
Well that was totally irrelevant except that all the book discussion reminded me of those times, and make me glad that I came out of that experience with an absolute hatred of any kind of class or racist talk. Another memory is of being hit several times by a couple of Mexican girls who thought I was American, and I remember shouting through my tears that I was English, not American. They backed off after that, but it sticks with me cause that itself was a racist act.
Anyway, sorry for the ramble, it just brought back some memories.
but the arguement goes....you did the servants a favour...by employing them.....
.ive heard a similar arguement even today...from people who work in India and automatically employ servants .....as its the done thing......
I hate the idea of using servants.....and would prefer if possible to do things for myself......and its one of the reasons I dont really want to work full time.....
to me......Just becasue im intelligent and can use my brain doesnt mean that I should need someone else to clean up after me....I should be capable of doing this for myself....
and it also is about not valuing some aspects of daily life.....surely things like childcare and cleaning and cooking and gardening etc...should be valued .....and not just given to someone of a lower social or economic status....simply cos I dont want to get my hands dirty......!!!!
but im not sure that many of my friends would necessarily agree with me on this!!!;)
but the arguement goes....you did the servants a favour...by employing them.....
.ive heard a similar arguement even today...from people who work in India and automatically employ servants .....as its the done thing......
I hate the idea of using servants.....and would prefer if possible to do things for myself......and its one of the reasons I dont really want to work full time.....
to me......Just becasue im intelligent and can use my brain doesnt mean that I should need someone else to clean up after me....I should be capable of doing this for myself....
and it also is about not valuing some aspects of daily life.....surely things like childcare and cleaning and cooking and gardening etc...should be valued .....and not just given to someone of a lower social or economic status....simply cos I dont want to get my hands dirty......!!!!
but im not sure that many of my friends would necessarily agree with me on this!!!;)
I expect to do my own cleaning too, augusta, but for different reasons from you. (Tbh, OH does most of it now while I'm at work). I wouldn't be able to afford a cleaner. And anyway, I'd be one of those going around cleaning the house up so the cleaner wouldn't see how dirty it gets. :rolleyes: I had a childminder for a few years while I worked part-time but for me that was a personal choice to continue working but even that had to stop because it became too expensive. To employ people to do those jobs if you can afford it is sharing your wealth enabling women to do jobs that fit in with their own lives, especially women or men with low skill levels. Unfortunately there are people who don't see these roles as 'service jobs' which they are but take advantage of their need for work by paying them very little, expecting a lot of commitment at their convenience and behaving badly towards them. On the other hand, there are many who don't behave like this.
Like Ali, our family lived abroad - only for a year - in India while my father worked there. We had servants who became family friends. We visited their families in their villages. (I was only 9 at the time but I remember it well.) This was a relief for my mother who was unable to cook but was expected to lay on dinners for work colleagues. It was a relief to her too not to spend every minute of her day washing and cleaning up after us all. I think she considered it one of the best years of her life because it gave her time to do what she wanted with her time instead of what she was expected to do.
but the arguement goes....you did the servants a favour...by employing them.....
.ive heard a similar arguement even today...from people who work in India and automatically employ servants .....as its the done thing......
I hate the idea of using servants.....and would prefer if possible to do things for myself......and its one of the reasons I dont really want to work full time.....
to me......Just becasue im intelligent and can use my brain doesnt mean that I should need someone else to clean up after me....I should be capable of doing this for myself....
and it also is about not valuing some aspects of daily life.....surely things like childcare and cleaning and cooking and gardening etc...should be valued .....and not just given to someone of a lower social or economic status....simply cos I dont want to get my hands dirty......!!!!
but im not sure that many of my friends would necessarily agree with me on this!!!;)
Just got back from mum's - have speed-read the discussion - good to have so much to read back on
Just on this issue of 'servants' or 'help'.....I agree with you Augusta that tasks such as cooking, cleaning and childcare should be highly valued, and the people carrying them out treated with respect. However, I do think there are circumstances where it can be right to employ help eg I had to work for financial reasons when my girls were little, so I decided to do my best to arrange child care that was of the highest quality, and which provided as nearly as possible seamless transitions with my care. I got to know a local nanny personally before offering her a job, and then split my pay 50/50 with her. That way I felt no-one was exploited, and the kids came first
Similarly, when I had bronchitis, I had to have help with the cleaning. It's all a matter of degree and circumstance, I think
Referring back to your earlier post about east European immigration, we had Romanian cleaners when I was still at work. Lots of people felt it was impossible to communicate with them - but in fact their written English turned out to be fine, so we evolved a system of leaving written messages rather than letting frustrations build up about lack of hand gel or whatever......;)
Anyway, off for a cup of tea now, may be back later.
but the arguement goes....you did the servants a favour...by employing them.....
.ive heard a similar arguement even today...from people who work in India and automatically employ servants .....as its the done thing......
I hate the idea of using servants.....and would prefer if possible to do things for myself......and its one of the reasons I dont really want to work full time.....
to me......Just becasue im intelligent and can use my brain doesnt mean that I should need someone else to clean up after me....I should be capable of doing this for myself....
and it also is about not valuing some aspects of daily life.....surely things like childcare and cleaning and cooking and gardening etc...should be valued .....and not just given to someone of a lower social or economic status....simply cos I dont want to get my hands dirty......!!!!
but im not sure that many of my friends would necessarily agree with me on this!!!;)
I do think augusta these observations are because you have never lived in a society where it is practice.It is not as simple as you are putting it.The help you are referring to in your home it is done by the cooker,the dish washer,the hoover,the washing machine,the microwave.You have never lived without running water or electricity or use fire wood for cooking.Your children have never had to dig before going to school or carried pots of water from a well.The two lifestyles are very different.People are chasing living costs,medical bills with no welfare or NHS.They cant afford to sit at home and do housework or look after children,it doesnt work like that and it is not an issue.My upbringing always had maids and we were trained along side them to do housework by my mother.My father taughts us how to dig and grow food during the holidays.They worked full time and we all went to boarding schools,until I came to the UK I never knew that going to boarding school is a big deal and you are 'abandoned' by your parents. I was very shocked to hear that because I went at 6yrs and no one in Uganda thinks like that.The best you can do for your kids is send them to boarding school.You cant judge a community you have never lived in.I am sure that is what your friends thought before they moved to India.Once they reached there,it was a very different story.
Also helpers are usually live in and get acccomodation,food and medicals as part of the job.So the rewards are not only in cash terms.If they stay long,they more or less become members of the family.We had a few who are close up to now,there is one who got married from our home and we see her and her kids.One had 2 kids in our home and we all helped in raising them.
I do think augusta these observations are because you have never lived in a society where it is practice.It is not as simple as you are putting it.The help you are referring to in your home it is done by the cooker,the dish washer,the hoover,the washing machine,the microwave.You have never lived without running water or electricity or use fire wood for cooking.Your children have never had to dig before going to school or carried pots of water from a well.The two lifestyles are very different.People are chasing living costs,medical bills with no welfare or NHS.They cant afford to sit at home and do housework or look after children,it doesnt work like that and it is not an issue.My upbringing always had maids and we were trained along side them to do housework by my mother.My father taughts us how to dig and grow food during the holidays.They worked full time and we all went to boarding schools,until I came to the UK I never knew that going to boarding school is a big deal and you are 'abandoned' by your parents. I was very shocked to hear that because I went at 6yrs and no one in Uganda thinks like that.The best you can do for your kids is send them to boarding school.You cant judge a community you have never lived in.I am sure that is what your friends thought before they moved to India.Once they reached there,it was a very different story.
Interesting post - thanks ucra There are jobs to be done, and every society arranges things differently. So long as there is true mutual respect, I think that's fine. The problem in The Help was that respect had gone out of the window!
Just a thought before I head off to bed. I did love the way The Help finished, even though it slightly stretched credulity that so many of the main characters had such a happy ending
For example, there was
- Miss Celia in an more honest relationship with her Mister Johnny
- Minny leaving her abusive husband
- the 'helps' being more financially well off than they'd ever been, which gave them choices in life
- Aibileen becoming the new problem page writer for the local newspaper
- Skeeter getting a job in New York
I know not everyone was in this situation - but for me, the tension of the narrative was resolved in a very happy ending To quote Aibileen:
'Maybe I ain't too old to start over, I think and laugh and cry at the same time at this. Cause last night I thought I was finished with everything new' She wasn't
And just because I like it, the writer's favourite line in the book:
'Wasn't that the point of the book? For women to realise, We are just two people. Not that much separates us. Not nearly as much as I'd thought'
Glad we had such a good discussion about the book - really stretches my thinking, don't know about you.
The next book is DARK FIRE by C J Sansome and this will be discussed in early August - I think we said 8 but it can be the 10th if that's easier for people.
See there is no news of John yet so we will have to hope. Very very blowy here.
Hope everyone has a very good day and weekend. Thanks to everyone for the interesting discussion.
Glad we had such a good discussion about the book - really stretches my thinking, don't know about you.
The next book is DARK FIRE by C J Sansome and this will be discussed in early August - I think we said 8 but it can be the 10th if that's easier for people.
See there is no news of John yet so we will have to hope. Very very blowy here.
Hope everyone has a very good day and weekend. Thanks to everyone for the interesting discussion.
Morning nyannie
Thanks so much for putting up the questions. It's great when people who haven't read the book contribute as well - and that's because your questions enabled the discussion to leap away from the book, if necessary. Anyway our book group is always like that, going off at many tangents - sometimes as above into really fruitful and interesting discussions and sometimes into not so interesting cul-de-sacs.
Loved reading everyone's posts. Thanks.
Looking forward to Dark Fire by someone who I have never read but who is highly rated as a Tudor crime writer.
I do think augusta these observations are because you have never lived in a society where it is practice.It is not as simple as you are putting it.The help you are referring to in your home it is done by the cooker,the dish washer,the hoover,the washing machine,the microwave.You have never lived without running water or electricity or use fire wood for cooking.Your children have never had to dig before going to school or carried pots of water from a well.The two lifestyles are very different.People are chasing living costs,medical bills with no welfare or NHS.They cant afford to sit at home and do housework or look after children,it doesnt work like that and it is not an issue.My upbringing always had maids and we were trained along side them to do housework by my mother.My father taughts us how to dig and grow food during the holidays.They worked full time and we all went to boarding schools,until I came to the UK I never knew that going to boarding school is a big deal and you are 'abandoned' by your parents. I was very shocked to hear that because I went at 6yrs and no one in Uganda thinks like that.The best you can do for your kids is send them to boarding school.You cant judge a community you have never lived in.I am sure that is what your friends thought before they moved to India.Once they reached there,it was a very different story.
Also helpers are usually live in and get acccomodation,food and medicals as part of the job.So the rewards are not only in cash terms.If they stay long,they more or less become members of the family.We had a few who are close up to now,there is one who got married from our home and we see her and her kids.One had 2 kids in our home and we all helped in raising them.
good points.........
every community is different.........but even within your description...you are saying that your parents joined
in ...and worked as part of a team with the servants....so it wasnt a kind of them and us...kind of mentality, which is ho
w I see it described in programmes like Upstairs downstairs
I think lindy probably explained the way I think best... and I do agree that if you are too busy.......then there isnt really a problem with employing people to help you....
but I do think somewhere what im thinking is that I dont want to devalue menial tasks too much or to think that we dont need to do them.....
Just a thought before I head off to bed. I did love the way The Help finished, even though it slightly stretched credulity that so many of the main characters had such a happy ending
For example, there was
- Miss Celia in an more honest relationship with her Mister Johnny
- Minny leaving her abusive husband
- the 'helps' being more financially well off than they'd ever been, which gave them choices in life
- Aibileen becoming the new problem page writer for the local newspaper
- Skeeter getting a job in New York
I know not everyone was in this situation - but for me, the tension of the narrative was resolved in a very happy ending To quote Aibileen:
'Maybe I ain't too old to start over, I think and laugh and cry at the same time at this. Cause last night I thought I was finished with everything new' She wasn't
And just because I like it, the writer's favourite line in the book:
'Wasn't that the point of the book? For women to realise, We are just two people. Not that much separates us. Not nearly as much as I'd thought'
:D
lovely summary ....wouldnt if be lovely if real life could end up with all the problems resolved????
every community is different.........but even within your description...you are saying that your parents joined
in ...and worked as part of a team with the servants....so it wasnt a kind of them and us...kind of mentality, which is ho
w I see it described in programmes like Upstairs downstairs
I think lindy probably explained the way I think best... and I do agree that if you are too busy.......then there isnt really a problem with employing people to help you....
but I do think somewhere what im thinking is that I dont want to devalue menial tasks too much or to think that we dont need to do them.....
You cant treat servants as them and us,you cant keep them.They are not under contract and can go to someone else.A programme on TV in the West will show that because it is what sells and that is what people want to see.It is like 'Africa is all poverty'which is far from the reality.You need to realise that you let servants into your home,your bedroom and your life and have to trust them even to cook for you.You cant get that loyalty by treating them that way.As Kay said they got to know their families and homes.There are lots of things you can do which are not necessarily working along side them.Their salaries are usually an addition to other benefits.
The small tasks you are referring to in this country involve only flicking a swtich to do most things but can you imagine if you have to prepare breakfast on fire wood in Uganda and go to work for 8 am or handwash all the beddings and children's clothes,then cook and clean the floor using a cloth?You just cant physically do all the chores and a 9-5 job or any job.
isnt it windy............hope not too many trees get uprooted...
so no news from John.........He was meant to be in the UK for June, I wonder if he is here yet? Or if we will every know....
I've just been out staking our tomatoes. I got soaked and the wind is incredible!
I think I agree with you augusta about whether we will ever know if John is in the UK. Anyway, off to make a cup of tea, I've done the ironing, put yet more washing on, finished and submitted my column, finished my invoices and now hands and back hurt so will settle down and watch Cash in the Attic before o/h comes home. Wonder what he has planned for my birthday tomorrow - he has been very secretive.
Comments
Fantastic post Alex - I agree it's so important to maintain standards in the little things, both for themselves, but also because in that way we keep up a personal and social standard which we would need in case of major crisis. The building blocks of civilisation and all that....
And concerning servants, a lot of us have 'help' even today - in fact the service industries are growing. How many of us employ cleaners, gardeners, childminders / nannies, window cleaners, odd job men, etc? The organisation is different in the UK but we still have 'help'.
Q3: I agree with you, Alex. Having had parents who had to flee the Nazis, I wonder if I'd have been able to stand out from the crowd and stand up for what I believe. Both my parents' families were made up of 2 'sides': one Jewish, the other Baptists - even though my parents met in England. The Baptist side of both families protected the Jewish side of the family - I don't know how, but they did, and all my relatives survived the war. Pretty remarkable! And that was in Berlin and Hamburg.
I'm sure some of you have read The Reader or seen the film with Kate Winslett. I think that throws up these issues very keenly and made me think that if I'd been a mother with children, for instance, would I have been able to risk my family? I don't know because I've never ever been in that life or death situation. I've been in situations where I've stuck my neck out to stand up for someone being bullied or abused on the street - but whether I'd go further than that, I don't know.
In The Help, it's the black women who take the risks - of losing their homes, of themselves and their families being harassed, even strung up maybe ('Strange Fruit' by Billie Holliday). Not Skeeter, the young white would be journalist trying to make it big in media world. Yes, she may have been ostracised for her actions but she'd be able to leave and make her home and career elsewhere.
Q5: Re Alex's point above. I agree. We see that situation in homes, offices, schools, all sorts of places of work. Bullying, tyranny - whatever you wish to call it. We would hope that people would behave with courtesy and respect to other people, whatever their position in our hierarchical society. I was shocked to read Lindy's story about a very simple situation. We know that a lot of people are still racist but most people in their day to day living manage not to make it so obvious.
I'd love to agree with you about our children's generation being more accepting of living among people from different cultures. Wouldn't that be wonderful? Unfortunately, I don't think it's generally the case. I think that publicly definitely there is less racism than among our parents' generation, for instance. People in cities are on the whole generally open to new experiences brought to them by different cultures. The world has opened up through travel and TV. But I know there are pockets in the UK - rural and urban- where there is a high degree of racism - some very overt. I agree with you, Augusta, also that in times of economic difficulties, any subdued elements of racism are likely to break out and be used by extremist groups for their own ends. That is, after all,, what happened under the Nazis. In times of recession/depression spread fear and loathing of a group who seem better off than you. Divide and rule.
Fortunately we now have laws in this country that preclude such behaviour officially and I think people are much more able to gather together and stand up for what they believe in. You only have to look at what is happening in Arab societies where you would never have believed such revolutions could ever happen. And surprise, surprise, a lot of them are led or populated by women - the most oppressed in those societies. All helped by modern technology - not quite so easy to control as physical borders.
I feel the same as you about the book, Lindy. I found myself immediately hearing the voices in my head of all the characters. I thought they were all wonderful. Yes, Miss Hilly was perhaps a caricature. But I bet there are loads of her around in the Southern states.
For me it is, definitely
Sorry wrong thread:)
Haha was going to say, you must be standing in the doorway one foot in either room
Growing up in the Foreign Office - at least when you are abroad (when you are at home the diplomat is a low-paid civil servant, abroad it's a different scenario) - you are provided with a nice home, various servants depending upon where you live (in my case Africa initially and then Mexico). Servants (my mother and I shudder in shame to even say we had a maid) were provided and paid for by the Diplomatic Service and it was, at that time, the norm.
As a child you see things differently, my memories are of those working in our house being our friends - my older brother was never anywhere but at our gardener's (Shaka was his name) side, although I doubt the relationship with my parents was quite like that. My parents were very uncomfortable about having servants around and brought me up to understand and know that we were all equal no matter what me might hear elsewhere. I know that there were some familes that took to this kind of life more easily than others and my parents never quite got used to the situation.
In Mexico we had a maid (Estella) who lived with us during the week and went home to her children at weekends. At night she would go to hairdressing classes as she wanted to work in a job where she could be with her family, who didn't live in the City. She was a wonderful woman and we loved her so much. I look back now and wonder how things went with her after we left, and think about how hard if must have been to be separated from her children all week. I remember her telling me that my Dad was the only boss who had bought the maid a TV for their room, of all the others that she knew. Again, I do look back in shame that we had servants and yet I wonder why I'm ashamed, when I talk to my parents about it they told me how happy Estella was to have regular full-time work, earn enough to learn hairdressing and the time off to go to school. She said not everybody in her town was so lucky. Must have been awful for her taking me and my brother to see the Osmonds
Well that was totally irrelevant except that all the book discussion reminded me of those times, and make me glad that I came out of that experience with an absolute hatred of any kind of class or racist talk. Another memory is of being hit several times by a couple of Mexican girls who thought I was American, and I remember shouting through my tears that I was English, not American. They backed off after that, but it sticks with me cause that itself was a racist act.
Anyway, sorry for the ramble, it just brought back some memories.
this is such a valid point.......
certain people have always been the arbiters of taste and opinion......
and it writers and lawyers etc who are often those who challenge or question these values....
look at the recent action in the leverson enquiry...finally questioning the way some members of the gutter press have been operating for years......by bugging phones and putting pressure to bear on people...to encourage them to say something in a particular way:(:(
re the BIB I noticed this as well.........its skeeter that raises it, and who basically takes the credit...but its the black maids who are risking almost everything........
its so unfair.....:(.
and I saw the film 'The Reader' as well, which raised so many questions.......and made it so obvious how hard it must have been.....to challenge things.....
strange how it was almost seen that not being able to read...was seen as being worse...and less easy to explain...than being a prison guard and not caring at all for your prisoners......
and there was so much in there of scapegoating the outsider...or the ignorant.....so that blame can be shifted away from some onto others....
even though ive studied the period of history within Nazi Germany, ive never properly understood the holocaust....
I almost think a film like 'cabaret'.....gets closest......showing a country on the edge of desperation because of the relentless economic depression....searching desperately for a way out....and following blindly the Nazi party... who were offering some kind of strong leadership.......
Why so many people chose to follow the nazis so blindly I have no idea.....
It can be so scary.......
but the arguement goes....you did the servants a favour...by employing them.....
.ive heard a similar arguement even today...from people who work in India and automatically employ servants .....as its the done thing......
I hate the idea of using servants.....and would prefer if possible to do things for myself......and its one of the reasons I dont really want to work full time.....
to me......Just becasue im intelligent and can use my brain doesnt mean that I should need someone else to clean up after me....I should be capable of doing this for myself....
and it also is about not valuing some aspects of daily life.....surely things like childcare and cleaning and cooking and gardening etc...should be valued .....and not just given to someone of a lower social or economic status....simply cos I dont want to get my hands dirty......!!!!
but im not sure that many of my friends would necessarily agree with me on this!!!;)
I expect to do my own cleaning too, augusta, but for different reasons from you. (Tbh, OH does most of it now while I'm at work). I wouldn't be able to afford a cleaner. And anyway, I'd be one of those going around cleaning the house up so the cleaner wouldn't see how dirty it gets. :rolleyes: I had a childminder for a few years while I worked part-time but for me that was a personal choice to continue working but even that had to stop because it became too expensive. To employ people to do those jobs if you can afford it is sharing your wealth enabling women to do jobs that fit in with their own lives, especially women or men with low skill levels. Unfortunately there are people who don't see these roles as 'service jobs' which they are but take advantage of their need for work by paying them very little, expecting a lot of commitment at their convenience and behaving badly towards them. On the other hand, there are many who don't behave like this.
Like Ali, our family lived abroad - only for a year - in India while my father worked there. We had servants who became family friends. We visited their families in their villages. (I was only 9 at the time but I remember it well.) This was a relief for my mother who was unable to cook but was expected to lay on dinners for work colleagues. It was a relief to her too not to spend every minute of her day washing and cleaning up after us all. I think she considered it one of the best years of her life because it gave her time to do what she wanted with her time instead of what she was expected to do.
Just got back from mum's - have speed-read the discussion - good to have so much to read back on
Just on this issue of 'servants' or 'help'.....I agree with you Augusta that tasks such as cooking, cleaning and childcare should be highly valued, and the people carrying them out treated with respect. However, I do think there are circumstances where it can be right to employ help eg I had to work for financial reasons when my girls were little, so I decided to do my best to arrange child care that was of the highest quality, and which provided as nearly as possible seamless transitions with my care. I got to know a local nanny personally before offering her a job, and then split my pay 50/50 with her. That way I felt no-one was exploited, and the kids came first
Similarly, when I had bronchitis, I had to have help with the cleaning. It's all a matter of degree and circumstance, I think
Referring back to your earlier post about east European immigration, we had Romanian cleaners when I was still at work. Lots of people felt it was impossible to communicate with them - but in fact their written English turned out to be fine, so we evolved a system of leaving written messages rather than letting frustrations build up about lack of hand gel or whatever......;)
Anyway, off for a cup of tea now, may be back later.
Thanks again for a great read
I do think augusta these observations are because you have never lived in a society where it is practice.It is not as simple as you are putting it.The help you are referring to in your home it is done by the cooker,the dish washer,the hoover,the washing machine,the microwave.You have never lived without running water or electricity or use fire wood for cooking.Your children have never had to dig before going to school or carried pots of water from a well.The two lifestyles are very different.People are chasing living costs,medical bills with no welfare or NHS.They cant afford to sit at home and do housework or look after children,it doesnt work like that and it is not an issue.My upbringing always had maids and we were trained along side them to do housework by my mother.My father taughts us how to dig and grow food during the holidays.They worked full time and we all went to boarding schools,until I came to the UK I never knew that going to boarding school is a big deal and you are 'abandoned' by your parents. I was very shocked to hear that because I went at 6yrs and no one in Uganda thinks like that.The best you can do for your kids is send them to boarding school.You cant judge a community you have never lived in.I am sure that is what your friends thought before they moved to India.Once they reached there,it was a very different story.
Also helpers are usually live in and get acccomodation,food and medicals as part of the job.So the rewards are not only in cash terms.If they stay long,they more or less become members of the family.We had a few who are close up to now,there is one who got married from our home and we see her and her kids.One had 2 kids in our home and we all helped in raising them.
Interesting post - thanks ucra
Just a thought before I head off to bed. I did love the way The Help finished, even though it slightly stretched credulity that so many of the main characters had such a happy ending
For example, there was
- Miss Celia in an more honest relationship with her Mister Johnny
- Minny leaving her abusive husband
- the 'helps' being more financially well off than they'd ever been, which gave them choices in life
- Aibileen becoming the new problem page writer for the local newspaper
- Skeeter getting a job in New York
I know not everyone was in this situation - but for me, the tension of the narrative was resolved in a very happy ending
'Maybe I ain't too old to start over, I think and laugh and cry at the same time at this. Cause last night I thought I was finished with everything new' She wasn't
And just because I like it, the writer's favourite line in the book:
'Wasn't that the point of the book? For women to realise, We are just two people. Not that much separates us. Not nearly as much as I'd thought'
Lindy x
Glad we had such a good discussion about the book - really stretches my thinking, don't know about you.
The next book is DARK FIRE by C J Sansome and this will be discussed in early August - I think we said 8 but it can be the 10th if that's easier for people.
See there is no news of John yet so we will have to hope. Very very blowy here.
Hope everyone has a very good day and weekend. Thanks to everyone for the interesting discussion.
Morning nyannie
Thanks so much for putting up the questions. It's great when people who haven't read the book contribute as well - and that's because your questions enabled the discussion to leap away from the book, if necessary. Anyway our book group is always like that, going off at many tangents - sometimes as above into really fruitful and interesting discussions and sometimes into not so interesting cul-de-sacs.
Loved reading everyone's posts. Thanks.
Looking forward to Dark Fire by someone who I have never read but who is highly rated as a Tudor crime writer.
good points.........
every community is different.........but even within your description...you are saying that your parents joined
in ...and worked as part of a team with the servants....so it wasnt a kind of them and us...kind of mentality, which is ho
w I see it described in programmes like Upstairs downstairs
I think lindy probably explained the way I think best... and I do agree that if you are too busy.......then there isnt really a problem with employing people to help you....
but I do think somewhere what im thinking is that I dont want to devalue menial tasks too much or to think that we dont need to do them.....
lovely summary ....wouldnt if be lovely if real life could end up with all the problems resolved????
isnt it windy............hope not too many trees get uprooted...
so no news from John.........He was meant to be in the UK for June, I wonder if he is here yet? Or if we will every know....
You cant treat servants as them and us,you cant keep them.They are not under contract and can go to someone else.A programme on TV in the West will show that because it is what sells and that is what people want to see.It is like 'Africa is all poverty'which is far from the reality.You need to realise that you let servants into your home,your bedroom and your life and have to trust them even to cook for you.You cant get that loyalty by treating them that way.As Kay said they got to know their families and homes.There are lots of things you can do which are not necessarily working along side them.Their salaries are usually an addition to other benefits.
The small tasks you are referring to in this country involve only flicking a swtich to do most things but can you imagine if you have to prepare breakfast on fire wood in Uganda and go to work for 8 am or handwash all the beddings and children's clothes,then cook and clean the floor using a cloth?You just cant physically do all the chores and a 9-5 job or any job.
I've just been out staking our tomatoes. I got soaked and the wind is incredible!
I think I agree with you augusta about whether we will ever know if John is in the UK. Anyway, off to make a cup of tea, I've done the ironing, put yet more washing on, finished and submitted my column, finished my invoices and now hands and back hurt so will settle down and watch Cash in the Attic before o/h comes home. Wonder what he has planned for my birthday tomorrow - he has been very secretive.
See you later I hope.