I liked Aaron the first night but the sulking in my opinion, ruined the atmosphere of the house not only for the other people living there but for the viewers as well.
Deana. One of the most boring housemates ever. It was only the antics of Connor that kept her in the house as long as she was.
Aaron was probably the first player to openly admit to playing a game. As we know, HM's that tend to play the game are usually highly disliked. But I think since his win, it's become more acceptable. Dexter played the game this year, although not as well as Aaron IMO. ...
What do you think Aaron did that was playing a, or the, game? What about Dexter?
I think the mere phrase "playing a game" is more confusing than helpful, because it's used with a range of incompatible meanings.
Anyway, traditionally a HM who came clean in the DR about how they were playing the BB game were popular. It was, supposedly, the ones who didn't come clean (and so were trying to play the viewers too) who weren't.
I can't really see how. Even if you didn't like her, she wasn't a very dominant character - no one really took over BB13 and Deana was pretty quiet for a lot of it.
Well, what good / interesting / enjoyable things did you see in bb13 that didn't involve Deana? (That means you can't count any of the "soldiers" stuff, even if Deana wasn't physically present at the time, any of the prayers and karma stuff, and so on.)
Then consider the effects her presence had on viewers, such as in this forum. How a HM was towards Deana became by far the most important thing. Consider Sara. She did a bit of Deana defending at one point, and suddenly she was a great HM. A thread said she'd done more for Deana than all of the outsiders put together. A theory appeared that Deana and Sara had a friendship that had developed over a long period but had been hidden from us by a biased edit. Then when Sara clashed with Deana, there was a huge turn against her. It was ridiculous and irritating and made it difficult to discuss the show.
Deana looked down on most, if not all, of the other HMs. Deana's way of arguing was annoying and was intended to be. Her tactic was to get the other person more and more irritated and loud, so that they'd be the one who looked bad -- a tactic traditionally, and imo rightly, despised.
She had a slyly spiteful and vindictive side that was shown not only against Luke S. I eventually realised that the insiders were in some ways right about Deana. She was sneaky. She was like a ghost much of the time, and while ghosts can just be kinda there, they can still cast a pall.
Well, what good / interesting / enjoyable things did you see in bb13 that didn't involve Deana? (That means you can't count any of the "soldiers" stuff, even if Deana wasn't physically present at the time, any of the prayers and karma stuff, and so on.)
Then consider the effects her presence had on viewers, such as in this forum. How a HM was towards Deana became by far the most important thing. Consider Sara. She did a bit of Deana defending at one point, and suddenly she was a great HM. A thread said she'd done more for Deana than all of the outsiders put together. A theory appeared that Deana and Sara had a friendship that had developed over a long period but had been hidden from us by a biased edit. Then when Sara clashed with Deana, there was a huge turn against her. It was ridiculous and irritating and made it difficult to discuss the show.
Deana looked down on most, if not all, of the other HMs. Deana's way of arguing was annoying and was intended to be. Her tactic was to get the other person more and more irritated and loud, so that they'd be the one who looked bad -- a tactic traditionally, and imo rightly, despised.
She had a slyly spiteful and vindictive side that was shown not only against Luke S. I eventually realised that the insiders were in some ways right about Deana. She was sneaky. She was like a ghost much of the time, and while ghosts can just be kinda there, they can still cast a pall.
Deana was really quite a nasty, sly person and just hopeless as a housemate, so I think Aaron wins hands down.
What do you think Aaron did that was playing a, or the, game? What about Dexter?
I think the mere phrase "playing a game" is more confusing than helpful, because it's used with a range of incompatible meanings.
It's a terrible term. Afaik Aaron is the only housemate to have put in the public domain details of how he manipulated other housemates; and it is not easy to think of other housemates who would have done the same, even if they had taken to an online forum to discuss it. (Victor was hardly in a position to do so since he was out so early).
The interesting thing about bb is the totemic nature of the word 'real'. Evictee after evictee has been asked, "do you think you were real/ yourself in there?" - and I literally can't think of anyone who has said no. Aaron said he wanted to walk off with no interview at all, just a "and that's how you win Big brother', but if he really did fantasise about doing that, he didn't carry it out. I would be interested if anyone can think of a housemate who has said no, they weren't real/ themselves in there. It would be entirely reasonable imo.
Well, what good / interesting / enjoyable things did you see in bb13 that didn't involve Deana? (That means you can't count any of the "soldiers" stuff, even if Deana wasn't physically present at the time, any of the prayers and karma stuff, and so on.)
I did think Deana was funny (which is not answering your question, but just putting in an obvious reason why people liked her). It wasn't a humour filled series, but she gave us several of what funny moments we got.
I am a bit reluctant to try and list good/ interesting/ enjoyable things from that series because they are so subjective. You would be quite likely to say that you hated them all. I really did enjoy Luke and Adam's friendship, and, for example, the time when Adam picked Luke and Lauren up, one in each arm, and they all burst out laughing. They were cheering and often fun together, and even the 'prayers stuff' was funny because of Luke and Adam's mixture of politeness, awkwardness and scepticism, not because of Deana per se.
Then consider the effects her presence had on viewers, such as in this forum. How a HM was towards Deana became by far the most important thing. Consider Sara. She did a bit of Deana defending at one point, and suddenly she was a great HM. A thread said she'd done more for Deana than all of the outsiders put together. A theory appeared that Deana and Sara had a friendship that had developed over a long period but had been hidden from us by a biased edit. Then when Sara clashed with Deana, there was a huge turn against her. It was ridiculous and irritating and made it difficult to discuss the show.
Oh I agree. It was ridiculous, as it always is when groups of fans use their beloved as a kind of measuring gauge determining whether someone is worthy or not. (Though one of the amusing things - perhaps the only amusing thing - about late BB14 was watching the problems Gina's fans had with promoting her friendship with Sam as proof of her charming, kind and amusing personality without doing anything positive for the reputation of her big rival). Overly belligerent fan groups can really put you off someone.
Deana looked down on most, if not all, of the other HMs. Deana's way of arguing was annoying and was intended to be. Her tactic was to get the other person more and more irritated and loud, so that they'd be the one who looked bad -- a tactic traditionally, and imo rightly, despised.
I don't really remember that, or thinking that she looked down on the other housemates. She seemed really delighted when Becky came in and singled her out as her best friend, then delighted all over again when Sara did the same. I do think part of Ashleigh's venom towards her was based on the supposition that Deana was looking down on her, but it is not easy to see which came first, the venom or the looking down. (Certainly Deana did look down on her in the end; but so did I.)
It's a terrible term. Afaik Aaron is the only housemate to have put in the public domain details of how he manipulated other housemates; and it is not easy to think of other housemates who would have done the same, even if they had taken to an online forum to discuss it. (Victor was hardly in a position to do so since he was out so early).
The interesting thing about bb is the totemic nature of the word 'real'. Evictee after evictee has been asked, "do you think you were real/ yourself in there?" - and I literally can't think of anyone who has said no. Aaron said he wanted to walk off with no interview at all, just a "and that's how you win Big brother', but if he really did fantasise about doing that, he didn't carry it out. I would be interested if anyone can think of a housemate who has said no, they weren't real/ themselves in there. It would be entirely reasonable imo.
I did think Deana was funny (which is not answering your question, but just putting in an obvious reason why people liked her). It wasn't a humour filled series, but she gave us several of what funny moments we got.
I am a bit reluctant to try and list good/ interesting/ enjoyable things from that series because they are so subjective. You would be quite likely to say that you hated them all. I really did enjoy Luke and Adam's friendship, and, for example, the time when Adam picked Luke and Lauren up, one in each arm, and they all burst out laughing. They were cheering and often fun together, and even the 'prayers stuff' was funny because of Luke and Adam's mixture of politeness, awkwardness and scepticism, not because of Deana per se.
Oh I agree. It was ridiculous, as it always is when groups of fans use their beloved as a kind of measuring gauge determining whether someone is worthy or not. (Though one of the amusing things - perhaps the only amusing thing - about late BB14 was watching the problems Gina's fans had with promoting her friendship with Sam as proof of her charming, kind and amusing personality without doing anything positive for the reputation of her big rival). Overly belligerent fan groups can really put you off someone.
I don't really remember that, or thinking that she looked down on the other housemates. She seemed really delighted when Becky came in and singled her out as her best friend, then delighted all over again when Sara did the same. I do think part of Ashleigh's venom towards her was based on the supposition that Deana was looking down on her, but it is not easy to see which came first, the venom or the looking down. (Certainly Deana did look down on her in the end; but so did I.)
Early on they actually got on fairly well. I think that it was when Deana voiced the opinion that her relationship with Luke S was fake on his part, that Ashleigh turned against her.
These are my two favourite HM's of all time. I voted Aaron, as he had slightly more presence and more likely to stand out in any series, whereas I agree that part of Deana's appeal was comparing her with the pond-scum she was up against, but I love both of them.
It's a terrible term. Afaik Aaron is the only housemate to have put in the public domain details of how he manipulated other housemates; and it is not easy to think of other housemates who would have done the same, even if they had taken to an online forum to discuss it. (Victor was hardly in a position to do so since he was out so early).
The interesting thing about bb is the totemic nature of the word 'real'. Evictee after evictee has been asked, "do you think you were real/ yourself in there?" - and I literally can't think of anyone who has said no. Aaron said he wanted to walk off with no interview at all, just a "and that's how you win Big brother', but if he really did fantasise about doing that, he didn't carry it out. I would be interested if anyone can think of a housemate who has said no, they weren't real/ themselves in there. It would be entirely reasonable imo.
I don't think Aaron said that - or rather not in the sense that I think you're trying to pass off. Then again you seem to interpret Aaron saying that part of him was glad Mark walked into him inwardly doing celebratory dances and feigning sadness so it's not really suprising.:rolleyes:
(Even if it was accurate I don't think he'd have said it. I actualy think that after he got some harsh for his initial posts here he generaly sugarcoated the rest of his responses.)
We know that Aaron at times attempted to manipulate the HMs to aid his game he didn't need to tell us that in hindsight he said it at the time such as manipulating the open talk noms. The only real argument is whether he did it much more than your average HM?
Think about it; Jay and Anton did the same. They attempted a block vote from the off "the Wolfpack own nominations", "if we can get rid a Aaron we can pick the rest off like flys" - that was Jay's words (paraphrased from memory).
We saw them both talk in the Crypt about using what they learned as well as their position of credibility to manipulate the others. We saw Jay lie (and we know he did lie about things) to stir up trouble for a group of housemates he called his friends. (Even if you believe Aaron was fair game I don't think Faye or Jem should have been put through the wringer but he didn't stop even after the friends and family noms). Did Aaron ever do anywhere near that bad?
Jay admitted he wasn't real in the house when questioned over the presents. In the sense that he wasn't just modifying his behavior but doing things he wouldn't normaly do to appeal to the public and/or his fellow HMs.
Obviously if you asked him he'd swear blind he was not a gameplayer or was anything but 100% genuine which brings up a more interesting question for me; how certain HMs seem to be able turn on and off whether BB is a gameshow with tactics designed to outwit the others or a reality show were the most genuine person wins and seem to remember their behavior to suit those terms.
An even more interesting question than that is how some HMs can seemingly get away with it whereas others don't.
As for the other topic of discussion I'd say Glyn is probably the closest to someone who has after the show admitted to being a gameplayer.
Then again plenty have stated that they played up to a character at times or used tactics at times.. I think you could argue that's as good as saying 'I played a game at times"
Yes, me too. I thought Faye and Aaron deserved each other.
Hmm that's not a sentiment I recall you expressing at the time. If I recall you seemed to be in the camp that Faye was an otherwise nice girl that was being used by the abusive Aaron. I vividly remember you expressing that Aaron was going to bleed dry the fans by conning them with a media relationship.
A laughable claim when we consider you're a consistent defender of that odious Gibson woman who ended up doing both of those things.
IOh I agree. It was ridiculous, as it always is when groups of fans use their beloved as a kind of measuring gauge determining whether someone is worthy or not. (Though one of the amusing things - perhaps the only amusing thing - about late BB14 was watching the problems Gina's fans had with promoting her friendship with Sam as proof of her charming, kind and amusing personality without doing anything positive for the reputation of her big rival). Overly belligerent fan groups can really put you off someone.
)
You really are irritating. Disliking a HM I understand, but attacking Gina's fans - is that really necessary?
I don't think Aaron said that - or rather not in the sense that I think you're trying to pass off. Then again you seem to interpret Aaron saying that part of him was glad Mark walked into him inwardly doing celebratory dances and feigning sadness so it's not really suprising.:rolleyes:
(Even if it was accurate I don't think he'd have said it. I actualy think that after he got some harsh for his initial posts here he generaly sugarcoated the rest of his responses.)
We know that Aaron at times attempted to manipulate the HMs to aid his game he didn't need to tell us that in hindsight he said it at the time such as manipulating the open talk noms. The only real argument is whether he did it much more than your average HM?
Think about it; Jay and Anton did the same. They attempted a block vote from the off "the Wolfpack own nominations", "if we can get rid a Aaron we can pick the rest off like flys" - that was Jay's words (paraphrased from memory).
We saw them both talk in the Crypt about using what they learned as well as their position of credibility to manipulate the others. We saw Jay lie (and we know he did lie about things) to stir up trouble for a group of housemates he called his friends. (Even if you believe Aaron was fair game I don't think Faye or Jem should have been put through the wringer but he didn't stop even after the friends and family noms). Did Aaron ever do anywhere near that bad?
Jay admitted he wasn't real in the house when questioned over the presents. In the sense that he wasn't just modifying his behavior but doing things he wouldn't normaly do to appeal to the public and/or his fellow HMs.
Obviously if you asked him he'd swear blind he was not a gameplayer or was anything but 100% genuine which brings up a more interesting question for me; how certain HMs seem to be able turn on and off whether BB is a gameshow with tactics designed to outwit the others or a reality show were the most genuine person wins and seem to remember their behavior to suit those terms.
An even more interesting question than that is how some HMs can seemingly get away with it whereas others don't.
As for the other topic of discussion I'd say Glyn is probably the closest to someone who has after the show admitted to being a gameplayer.
Then again plenty have stated that they played up to a character at times or used tactics at times.. I think you could argue that's as good as saying 'I played a game at times"
Hmm that's not a sentiment I recall you expressing at the time. If I recall you seemed to be in the camp that Faye was an otherwise nice girl that was being used by the abusive Aaron. I vividly remember you expressing that Aaron was going to bleed dry the fans by conning them with a media relationship.
A laughable claim when we consider you're a consistent defender of that odious Gibson woman who ended up doing both of those things.
I did like Faye to start with but I went off her towards the end. Her taste in men left an awful lot to be desired;)
I never liked Aaron and I still don't, he was so full of himself one minute and then crying in a corner the next minute.
By the way, I wasn't really a fan of Josie, she was called such vile things on here I felt the need to stick up for her. Many on here also found it necessary to ridicule her fans on here. It was not a nice time to be on DS.
I did like Faye to start with but I went off her towards the end. Her taste in men left an awful lot to be desired;)
I never liked Aaron and I still don't, he was so full of himself one minute and then crying in a corner the next minute.
By the way, I wasn't really a fan of Josie, she was called such vile things on here I felt the need to stick up for her. Many on here also found it necessary to ridicule her fans on here. It was not a nice time to be on DS.
A quick skim of the search results it seems that your opinion changed fairly late on. I'm going to hazard a guess that your opinion changed around the time it became obvious that Faye would not turn on Aaron once she was evicted like many pinned their hopes on. Warm? Cold?
Seems a bit odd that you would judge Faye soley on her being with Aaron but I suppose to each their own.
Many vile things have been said about many HMs including many about Aaron which in hindshight have been proven untrue. Surely as someone who claims not to like a gang mentality would think twice about joining in with that?
Also it seems that odd that in the past you admonish Aaron for behavior you wrongfully predicted he would do but routinely defend (fan or not) a HM who is very guilty of that very same behavior.
I don't think Aaron said that - or rather not in the sense that I think you're trying to pass off. Then again you seem to interpret Aaron saying that part of him was glad Mark walked into him inwardly doing celebratory dances and feigning sadness so it's not really suprising.:rolleyes:
I said no such thing. Don't try to put words in my mouth. I was rather shocked because Aaron looked SO distraught when Mark was walking out, lying on the floor by the door to the diary room, then what he actually said about the incident was,
At the time I was torn as he was a great buddy and made my time in there better, but I was aware he'd be popular outside so it was almost like an easier route to winning without him there.
We know that Aaron at times attempted to manipulate the HMs to aid his game he didn't need to tell us that in hindsight he said it at the time such as manipulating the open talk noms. The only real argument is whether he did it much more than your average HM?
Yes, he did, of course he did. I am amazed that anyone would even suggest that he didn't. Manipulating the other housemates to get a desired result requrires perceptiveness, social skills and intelligence. Aaron was very happy in the chapter of his prospective book to show off those qualities. Who else do you think has done anything similar and would be happy to discuss it?
Think about it; Jay and Anton did the same. They attempted a block vote from the off "the Wolfpack own nominations", "if we can get rid a Aaron we can pick the rest off like flys" - that was Jay's words (paraphrased from memory).
In your anxiety in case someone is getting at Aaron I think you have forgotten what was being discussed in the first place. I posted:
Afaik Aaron is the only housemate to have put in the public domain details of how he manipulated other housemates; and it is not easy to think of other housemates who would have done the same, even if they had taken to an online forum to discuss it.
In what imaginable world do jay and Anton come into this category? They have clearly not put in the public domain details of how they manipulated other housemates; indeed, Anton got down on his knees in the diary room and said he wanted to admit defeat. I was not discussing who was 'a gameplayer', which seems a meaningless and pointless term. I was discussing how very rare it is for people to be happy to say, after the show, that they were 'not real'. If you can find other examples of post-BB housemates bragging about how cleverly they manipulated other people, feel free to bring them to the table. You will not find Jay and Anton among their number.
I said no such thing. Don't try to put words in my mouth. I was rather shocked because Aaron looked SO distraught when Mark was walking out, lying on the floor by the door to the diary room, then what he actually said about the incident was,
I've seen you describe this to a number of posters that hadn't read the thread Aaron posted on here or the relevant posts and I'd say my description is fairly accurate to how it comes across.
I don't know whether it's how you actualy interpreted what he said on here or if it's a deliberate distortion on your part but the part of me that has debated with you often knows that you're very clever in your use of words that you have to know what picture you often paint with them.
Yes, he did, of course he did. I am amazed that anyone would even suggest that he didn't. Manipulating the other housemates to get a desired result requrires perceptiveness, social skills and intelligence. Aaron was very happy in the chapter of his prospective book to show off those qualities. Who else do you think has done anything similar and would be happy to discuss it?
No one is arguing he didn't.
My point is that he was at least somewhat open about it on the show itself.
My other point was that I don't think it was anywhere near the degree his detractors including you incessantly make out. I'd argue he did it no more than your average BB HM.
In your anxiety in case someone is getting at Aaron I think you have forgotten what was being discussed in the first place. I posted:
In what imaginable world do jay and Anton come into this category? They have clearly not put in the public domain details of how they manipulated other housemates; indeed, Anton got down on his knees in the diary room and said he wanted to admit defeat. I was not discussing who was 'a gameplayer', which seems a meaningless and pointless term. I was discussing how very rare it is for people to be happy to say, after the show, that they were 'not real'. If you can find other examples of post-BB housemates bragging about how cleverly they manipulated other people, feel free to bring them to the table. You will not find Jay and Anton among their number.
Apart from maybe Nasty Nick I don't think there's one. Aaron didn't say here or anywhere else that he was not "real" (another meaningless term in the context of BB). That's another distortion that you continualy perpetuate on this subject.
On the contrary he argued on here that from his perspective he was generaly himself at attempts to suggest he is wholly different on the outside. A rather ironic argument given some of the people from the same year.
Which of course brings me to the other HMs I mentioned. Jay himself mentioned on the show that he could manipulate people and events, he bragged about it. The fact that he would likely never concede this post show I find interesting as some HMs can get away with flip flopping on this issue whereas others are rather staunchly held to a few minor comments.
My point is that he was at least somewhat open about it on the show itself.
My other point was that I don't think it was anywhere near the degree his detractors including you incessantly make out. I'd argue he did it no more than your average BB HM.
Apart from maybe Nasty Nick I don't think there's one. Aaron didn't say here or anywhere else that he was not "real" (another meaningless term in the context of BB). That's another distortion that you continualy perpetuate on this subject.
On the contrary he argued on here that from his perspective he was generaly himself at attempts to suggest he is wholly different on the outside. A rather ironic argument given some of the people from the same year.
Which of course brings me to the other HMs I mentioned. Jay himself mentioned on the show that he could manipulate people and events, he bragged about it. The fact that he would likely never concede this post show I find interesting as some HMs can get away with flip flopping on this issue whereas others are rather staunchly held to a few minor comments.
Again, I think you are being quite unnecessarily defensive about something that was not an attack. I was not discussing whether Aaron was more manipulative or fake than other housemates. If you asked me who I thought was the most manipulative housemate, I guess I would say someone like Carole Vincent: she wept like a waterspout if anyone tried to disagree with her instead of engaging with their arguments,and guilt-tripped almost the whole house into saying that she should win because 'she needs the money'.
What I was discussing here was the extreme difficulty - impossibility even - housemates have in answering the question "do you think you were real/ yourself in there?" - with anything other than a fervent yes. I have said several times in the past that I would love someone to say no, and would think it a perfectly reasonable answer. I don't suppose many housemates have tried to create a totally false persona (BB14 was surely unusual in that respect) but there is no shame in being slightly different from usual because you are in a gameshow and on camera; indeed I should think a high percentage of housemates are. A housemate who failed in their schemes is hardly likely to come out of the BB house and discuss what they were: the chapter of Aaron's proposed book was the only example I can think of of someone being willing to reveal the mechanism of 'playing' BB. Aaron said that the boos as he came out of the house put him off his stride, but it would have been interesting to see what kind of interview he would have given if that hadn't happened but he had still gone ahead and done an interview. He is one of very few housemates I can imagine giving a more nuanced answer to the question; Lesley Brain might have done perhaps, though I can't remember if she was asked; I would if I was a housemate.
Amusingly, Jay DID hint that he was not 'real' in the BB house when he grumbled that being in there meant that he couldn't put shit in someone's kettle, raising the hair-raising possibility that in real life he is even coarser than he was in the house.
But it is still an odd fact that not being 'real' or 'playing a game' are two deadly insults in a gameshow where actually thoughtful strategy and a degree of deviousness can be very useful. On the whole I prefer my big brothers taken straight, as far away as possible from the American model, which is why I far prefer to see a Rachel or Sophie win rather than an Aaron; it is interesting that he nearly got into BB5 and 8, neither of which imo he would have won; he lucked into a series where all the non-strategic players were dislikeable or weak so he had a pretty clear run at things.
A quick skim of the search results it seems that your opinion changed fairly late on. I'm going to hazard a guess that your opinion changed around the time it became obvious that Faye would not turn on Aaron once she was evicted like many pinned their hopes on. Warm? Cold?
Seems a bit odd that you would judge Faye soley on her being with Aaron but I suppose to each their own.
Many vile things have been said about many HMs including many about Aaron which in hindshight have been proven untrue. Surely as someone who claims not to like a gang mentality would think twice about joining in with that?
Also it seems that odd that in the past you admonish Aaron for behavior you wrongfully predicted he would do but routinely defend (fan or not) a HM who is very guilty of that very same behavior.
That's rather hypocritical, don't you think?
Not at all, I defended Josie because she was treated appalling on here, she was called the most disgusting names and some fms wishing horrible things to happen to her. I might add that I considered these said fms to be quite intelligent people and was gobsmacked by their attitudes to her.
I think most fms are hypocritical at times, depending on who their favourite is at the time.
I wasn't aware that she bullied anyone, according to many on this forum Gina bullied Hazel, and that's ridiculous.
It's a terrible term. Afaik Aaron is the only housemate to have put in the public domain details of how he manipulated other housemates; and it is not easy to think of other housemates who would have done the same, even if they had taken to an online forum to discuss it. (Victor was hardly in a position to do so since he was out so early).
...
I'm struggling to make sense of that. Please say something more about what you think Aaron did (and where) that you think Victor wasn't in a position to do because he was out so early.
Re how Aaron "manipulated other housemates" -- what did he do and to what end? All I can remember him saying is about leading HMs to make certain nomination choices.
That seems to me legitimate tactics, rather than game-playing in the pejorative sense.
I did think Deana was funny (which is not answering your question, but just putting in an obvious reason why people liked her). It wasn't a humour filled series, but she gave us several of what funny moments we got.
I am a bit reluctant to try and list good/ interesting/ enjoyable things from that series because they are so subjective. You would be quite likely to say that you hated them all. I really did enjoy Luke and Adam's friendship, and, for example, the time when Adam picked Luke and Lauren up, one in each arm, and they all burst out laughing. They were cheering and often fun together, and even the 'prayers stuff' was funny because of Luke and Adam's mixture of politeness, awkwardness and scepticism, not because of Deana per se.
I'm asking you what things seemed good / interesting / enjoyable to you in bb13 that didn't involve Deana, so it's fine that it's subjective. Of course, I might hate it all. We'll see.
The prayers stuff doesn't count because it involved Deana. It doesn't matter that your reasons for finding it funny weren't because of Deana per se.
The context here is that you couldn't see how I could think "Deana went far towards ruining bb13", because (you said) "if you didn't like her, she wasn't a very dominant character - no one really took over BB13 and Deana was pretty quiet for a lot of it."
So let's take out all the things that involved Deana (not only when she was physically present) and see what's left, even for you.
Oh I agree. It was ridiculous, as it always is when groups of fans use their beloved as a kind of measuring gauge determining whether someone is worthy or not. ... Overly belligerent fan groups can really put you off someone.
Yes, but I don't think it's only a HM's fans who use them as a measuring gage. I wasn't trying to make a point about fans, but about the reaction in general.
I don't really remember that, or thinking that she looked down on the other housemates. She seemed really delighted when Becky came in and singled her out as her best friend, then delighted all over again when Sara did the same. I do think part of Ashleigh's venom towards her was based on the supposition that Deana was looking down on her, but it is not easy to see which came first, the venom or the looking down. (Certainly Deana did look down on her in the end; but so did I.)
I don't think Deana saw Sara as a friend. I think she saw Sara as someone she could do a Paxman on for her own amusement. As I said in the rest of that paragraph, "Deana's way of arguing was annoying and was intended to be. Her tactic was to get the other person more and more irritated and loud, so that they'd be the one who looked bad." She was happy to use those tactics against Sara.
I also think it was quite telling when Deana said (once Conor was off in the White Room) that she'd been able to show only half her character. When asked what the other half was like said she'd have gone wild if someone had spoken to her in the dismissive way Becky did.
I'm struggling to make sense of that. Please say something more about what you think Aaron did (and where) that you think Victor wasn't in a position to do because he was out so early.
Victor could hardly reveal his skill at playing the Big Brother game since he was out with nearly 50% of the votes in a four-way eviction. In fact it has always seemed to me that Victor was retrospectively recreated as a BB legend some time after the event. A lot of the time he was just moody and not entertaining at all. As a forum member he seems sharp and articulate, but I don't really remember that at the time.
Re how Aaron "manipulated other housemates" -- what did he do and to what end? All I can remember him saying is about leading HMs to make certain nomination choices.
That seems to me legitimate tactics, rather than game-playing in the pejorative sense.
Yes, absolutely legitimate. He played a difficult situation very well. I can't see any reason to blame him at all for it. You seem to be straying into farscape territory here in seeing a criticism where there was none. My point is that housemates are extremely reluctant to admit to any degree of tactics, strategies or game playing at ALL, even when it is no more than sensible. Aaron was the only person I can think of happy to say that, "I said x which tricked so and so into doing y". Other people will not say so because 'game playing' is considered a deadly insult, or because they don't want to disclose how utterly their attempts at playing a game failed.
I'm asking you what things seemed good / interesting / enjoyable to you in bb13 that didn't involve Deana, so it's fine that it's subjective. Of course, I might hate it all. We'll see.
Ok, though it is always a bit cringy to try and give a list of favourite moments - they are often trivial and may strike other people as either pointless, dull or emetic. But these are a few of the incidents I remember liking in BB13; some involved Deana but a lot didn't.
1. Caroline's relationship with Chris, especially their date.
2. Sara's bad dates task, with the others competing to see how quickly she would buzz them.
3. Benedict unbolting a chair and carrying it out of the house, stopping to tell Luke S to enjoy the curry powder.
4. Luke A's determination to lose the key task, inability to do so (I still think BB had fixed it so the other team had no winning keys), his attempt to look celebratory in the diary room afterwards and almost speechless relief when it was overturned.
5. The box task: Luke S, Adam, Luke A and Deana standing on the boxes for 13 hours, then Luke A getting off about three minutes after Luke S.
6. The magic potions task.
7. Caroline having to put her hand into three boxes in the diary room; her shrieks and tears, and saying, "that one had sperm in it!" and Luke saying "I hope not, I got some in my eye!"
8. Deana's relaxion tape in which someone was eaten by a crocodile.
9. The boats task, with Adam and Becky were put in the same boat, which rapidly sank to the music from the Titanic.
10. Luke A jumping clear over Adam to get away from a dive-bombing moth.
11. Deana praying to God to look after Luke and Adam, and Luke saying anxiously, "can you say Luke A please?"
12. The museum task, and the exhibits getting more and more out of control until they had the world's noisiest silent disco.
That'll do (pig).
t think Deana saw Sara as a friend. I think she saw Sara as someone she could do a Paxman on for her own amusement.
I did think Deana saw Sara as a friend at that time. I always thought Deana really wanted to be part of a gossipy girl group, trying on clothes and makeup etc. She seemed really happy when Sara seemed up for it. It took her a long time to accept that she really wasn't liked by the other girls, including, it seemed, Sara, so she had to ally herself with two men who liked talking about cars instead.
As I said in the rest of that paragraph, "Deana's way of arguing was annoying and was intended to be. Her tactic was to get the other person more and more irritated and loud, so that they'd be the one who looked bad." She was happy to use those tactics against Sara.
I don't remember it. I'm not disputing it, I just don't remember it. I do of course remember her tormenting of Luke S, but that is all.
Victor could hardly reveal his skill at playing the Big Brother game since he was out with nearly 50% of the votes in a four-way eviction. In fact it has always seemed to me that Victor was retrospectively recreated as a BB legend some time after the event. A lot of the time he was just moody and not entertaining at all. As a forum member he seems sharp and articulate, but I don't really remember that at the time.
I think that's mixing together a bunch of different things. It's hard to be sure what people mean when they talk of "playing a game" or "playing the game", but I thought the issue was about which HMs had openly admitted to playing -- and not about whether they could or did reveal skill at it, or whether they were entertaining.
Since it isn't clear what people mean when they talk of "playing a game" or "playing the game", I was asking what the HMS did or admitted to that was playing a/the game.
Victor has long had the reputation of having come clean in the DR (and so with viewers) about his strategy and tactics in the BB game. I can no longer remember quite what he said, but he did at least say something about it.
Another is Sezer. I can't recall quite what he said either, but there was at least something about how he was going to "bully" opinions out of Aisleyen so that Richard would defend her.
BTW, I don't understand why you're placing some much emphasis on "the public domain". Is it a way to make it not count if a HM says something in the BB house or in the DR, but only if they say it -- I don't know -- somewhere else, later?
Yes, absolutely legitimate. He played a difficult situation very well. I can't see any reason to blame him at all for it. You seem to be straying into farscape territory here in seeing a criticism where there was none. My point is that housemates are extremely reluctant to admit to any degree of tactics, strategies or game playing at ALL, even when it is no more than sensible. Aaron was the only person I can think of happy to say that, "I said x which tricked so and so into doing y". Other people will not say so because 'game playing' is considered a deadly insult, or because they don't want to disclose how utterly their attempts at playing a game failed.
You seemed to me lumping that sort of playing the BB game in with things like whether a HM was "real" / being themself or tried to create a false persona.
So far as I can recall without searching out old threads, Aaron said he'd created a persona in order to be selected as a HM -- something little different from what Callum said he'd done to get into bb14, or even Dawn said about getting into bb7, or what Aisleyne said in her book about acting like a ghetto princess (I'm not saying that's a complete list) -- and that he'd tricked some HMs about nominations. None of that would mean he hadn't been himself in the house.
Comments
I liked Aaron the first night but the sulking in my opinion, ruined the atmosphere of the house not only for the other people living there but for the viewers as well.
Deana. One of the most boring housemates ever. It was only the antics of Connor that kept her in the house as long as she was.
What sorts of things did Victor say that you think means he admitted to playing a game?
What do you think Aaron did that was playing a, or the, game? What about Dexter?
I think the mere phrase "playing a game" is more confusing than helpful, because it's used with a range of incompatible meanings.
Anyway, traditionally a HM who came clean in the DR about how they were playing the BB game were popular. It was, supposedly, the ones who didn't come clean (and so were trying to play the viewers too) who weren't.
Well, what good / interesting / enjoyable things did you see in bb13 that didn't involve Deana? (That means you can't count any of the "soldiers" stuff, even if Deana wasn't physically present at the time, any of the prayers and karma stuff, and so on.)
Then consider the effects her presence had on viewers, such as in this forum. How a HM was towards Deana became by far the most important thing. Consider Sara. She did a bit of Deana defending at one point, and suddenly she was a great HM. A thread said she'd done more for Deana than all of the outsiders put together. A theory appeared that Deana and Sara had a friendship that had developed over a long period but had been hidden from us by a biased edit. Then when Sara clashed with Deana, there was a huge turn against her. It was ridiculous and irritating and made it difficult to discuss the show.
Deana looked down on most, if not all, of the other HMs. Deana's way of arguing was annoying and was intended to be. Her tactic was to get the other person more and more irritated and loud, so that they'd be the one who looked bad -- a tactic traditionally, and imo rightly, despised.
She had a slyly spiteful and vindictive side that was shown not only against Luke S. I eventually realised that the insiders were in some ways right about Deana. She was sneaky. She was like a ghost much of the time, and while ghosts can just be kinda there, they can still cast a pall.
Deana was really quite a nasty, sly person and just hopeless as a housemate, so I think Aaron wins hands down.
The interesting thing about bb is the totemic nature of the word 'real'. Evictee after evictee has been asked, "do you think you were real/ yourself in there?" - and I literally can't think of anyone who has said no. Aaron said he wanted to walk off with no interview at all, just a "and that's how you win Big brother', but if he really did fantasise about doing that, he didn't carry it out. I would be interested if anyone can think of a housemate who has said no, they weren't real/ themselves in there. It would be entirely reasonable imo.
I did think Deana was funny (which is not answering your question, but just putting in an obvious reason why people liked her). It wasn't a humour filled series, but she gave us several of what funny moments we got.
I am a bit reluctant to try and list good/ interesting/ enjoyable things from that series because they are so subjective. You would be quite likely to say that you hated them all. I really did enjoy Luke and Adam's friendship, and, for example, the time when Adam picked Luke and Lauren up, one in each arm, and they all burst out laughing. They were cheering and often fun together, and even the 'prayers stuff' was funny because of Luke and Adam's mixture of politeness, awkwardness and scepticism, not because of Deana per se.
Oh I agree. It was ridiculous, as it always is when groups of fans use their beloved as a kind of measuring gauge determining whether someone is worthy or not. (Though one of the amusing things - perhaps the only amusing thing - about late BB14 was watching the problems Gina's fans had with promoting her friendship with Sam as proof of her charming, kind and amusing personality without doing anything positive for the reputation of her big rival). Overly belligerent fan groups can really put you off someone. I don't really remember that, or thinking that she looked down on the other housemates. She seemed really delighted when Becky came in and singled her out as her best friend, then delighted all over again when Sara did the same. I do think part of Ashleigh's venom towards her was based on the supposition that Deana was looking down on her, but it is not easy to see which came first, the venom or the looking down. (Certainly Deana did look down on her in the end; but so did I.)
Early on they actually got on fairly well. I think that it was when Deana voiced the opinion that her relationship with Luke S was fake on his part, that Ashleigh turned against her.
Yes, me too. I thought Faye and Aaron deserved each other.
I don't think Aaron said that - or rather not in the sense that I think you're trying to pass off. Then again you seem to interpret Aaron saying that part of him was glad Mark walked into him inwardly doing celebratory dances and feigning sadness so it's not really suprising.:rolleyes:
(Even if it was accurate I don't think he'd have said it. I actualy think that after he got some harsh for his initial posts here he generaly sugarcoated the rest of his responses.)
We know that Aaron at times attempted to manipulate the HMs to aid his game he didn't need to tell us that in hindsight he said it at the time such as manipulating the open talk noms. The only real argument is whether he did it much more than your average HM?
Think about it; Jay and Anton did the same. They attempted a block vote from the off "the Wolfpack own nominations", "if we can get rid a Aaron we can pick the rest off like flys" - that was Jay's words (paraphrased from memory).
We saw them both talk in the Crypt about using what they learned as well as their position of credibility to manipulate the others. We saw Jay lie (and we know he did lie about things) to stir up trouble for a group of housemates he called his friends. (Even if you believe Aaron was fair game I don't think Faye or Jem should have been put through the wringer but he didn't stop even after the friends and family noms). Did Aaron ever do anywhere near that bad?
Jay admitted he wasn't real in the house when questioned over the presents. In the sense that he wasn't just modifying his behavior but doing things he wouldn't normaly do to appeal to the public and/or his fellow HMs.
Obviously if you asked him he'd swear blind he was not a gameplayer or was anything but 100% genuine which brings up a more interesting question for me; how certain HMs seem to be able turn on and off whether BB is a gameshow with tactics designed to outwit the others or a reality show were the most genuine person wins and seem to remember their behavior to suit those terms.
An even more interesting question than that is how some HMs can seemingly get away with it whereas others don't.
As for the other topic of discussion I'd say Glyn is probably the closest to someone who has after the show admitted to being a gameplayer.
Then again plenty have stated that they played up to a character at times or used tactics at times.. I think you could argue that's as good as saying 'I played a game at times"
Hmm that's not a sentiment I recall you expressing at the time. If I recall you seemed to be in the camp that Faye was an otherwise nice girl that was being used by the abusive Aaron. I vividly remember you expressing that Aaron was going to bleed dry the fans by conning them with a media relationship.
A laughable claim when we consider you're a consistent defender of that odious Gibson woman who ended up doing both of those things.
You really are irritating. Disliking a HM I understand, but attacking Gina's fans - is that really necessary?
I did like Faye to start with but I went off her towards the end. Her taste in men left an awful lot to be desired;)
I never liked Aaron and I still don't, he was so full of himself one minute and then crying in a corner the next minute.
By the way, I wasn't really a fan of Josie, she was called such vile things on here I felt the need to stick up for her. Many on here also found it necessary to ridicule her fans on here. It was not a nice time to be on DS.
A quick skim of the search results it seems that your opinion changed fairly late on. I'm going to hazard a guess that your opinion changed around the time it became obvious that Faye would not turn on Aaron once she was evicted like many pinned their hopes on. Warm? Cold?
Seems a bit odd that you would judge Faye soley on her being with Aaron but I suppose to each their own.
Many vile things have been said about many HMs including many about Aaron which in hindshight have been proven untrue. Surely as someone who claims not to like a gang mentality would think twice about joining in with that?
Also it seems that odd that in the past you admonish Aaron for behavior you wrongfully predicted he would do but routinely defend (fan or not) a HM who is very guilty of that very same behavior.
That's rather hypocritical, don't you think?
I said no such thing. Don't try to put words in my mouth. I was rather shocked because Aaron looked SO distraught when Mark was walking out, lying on the floor by the door to the diary room, then what he actually said about the incident was,
Yes, he did, of course he did. I am amazed that anyone would even suggest that he didn't. Manipulating the other housemates to get a desired result requrires perceptiveness, social skills and intelligence. Aaron was very happy in the chapter of his prospective book to show off those qualities. Who else do you think has done anything similar and would be happy to discuss it?
In your anxiety in case someone is getting at Aaron I think you have forgotten what was being discussed in the first place. I posted:
In what imaginable world do jay and Anton come into this category? They have clearly not put in the public domain details of how they manipulated other housemates; indeed, Anton got down on his knees in the diary room and said he wanted to admit defeat. I was not discussing who was 'a gameplayer', which seems a meaningless and pointless term. I was discussing how very rare it is for people to be happy to say, after the show, that they were 'not real'. If you can find other examples of post-BB housemates bragging about how cleverly they manipulated other people, feel free to bring them to the table. You will not find Jay and Anton among their number.
I'm sorry; I had no idea the Princess and the pea was on the forum tonight.
I've seen you describe this to a number of posters that hadn't read the thread Aaron posted on here or the relevant posts and I'd say my description is fairly accurate to how it comes across.
I don't know whether it's how you actualy interpreted what he said on here or if it's a deliberate distortion on your part but the part of me that has debated with you often knows that you're very clever in your use of words that you have to know what picture you often paint with them.
No one is arguing he didn't.
My point is that he was at least somewhat open about it on the show itself.
My other point was that I don't think it was anywhere near the degree his detractors including you incessantly make out. I'd argue he did it no more than your average BB HM.
Apart from maybe Nasty Nick I don't think there's one. Aaron didn't say here or anywhere else that he was not "real" (another meaningless term in the context of BB). That's another distortion that you continualy perpetuate on this subject.
On the contrary he argued on here that from his perspective he was generaly himself at attempts to suggest he is wholly different on the outside. A rather ironic argument given some of the people from the same year.
Which of course brings me to the other HMs I mentioned. Jay himself mentioned on the show that he could manipulate people and events, he bragged about it. The fact that he would likely never concede this post show I find interesting as some HMs can get away with flip flopping on this issue whereas others are rather staunchly held to a few minor comments.
Again, I think you are being quite unnecessarily defensive about something that was not an attack. I was not discussing whether Aaron was more manipulative or fake than other housemates. If you asked me who I thought was the most manipulative housemate, I guess I would say someone like Carole Vincent: she wept like a waterspout if anyone tried to disagree with her instead of engaging with their arguments,and guilt-tripped almost the whole house into saying that she should win because 'she needs the money'.
What I was discussing here was the extreme difficulty - impossibility even - housemates have in answering the question "do you think you were real/ yourself in there?" - with anything other than a fervent yes. I have said several times in the past that I would love someone to say no, and would think it a perfectly reasonable answer. I don't suppose many housemates have tried to create a totally false persona (BB14 was surely unusual in that respect) but there is no shame in being slightly different from usual because you are in a gameshow and on camera; indeed I should think a high percentage of housemates are. A housemate who failed in their schemes is hardly likely to come out of the BB house and discuss what they were: the chapter of Aaron's proposed book was the only example I can think of of someone being willing to reveal the mechanism of 'playing' BB. Aaron said that the boos as he came out of the house put him off his stride, but it would have been interesting to see what kind of interview he would have given if that hadn't happened but he had still gone ahead and done an interview. He is one of very few housemates I can imagine giving a more nuanced answer to the question; Lesley Brain might have done perhaps, though I can't remember if she was asked; I would if I was a housemate.
Amusingly, Jay DID hint that he was not 'real' in the BB house when he grumbled that being in there meant that he couldn't put shit in someone's kettle, raising the hair-raising possibility that in real life he is even coarser than he was in the house.
But it is still an odd fact that not being 'real' or 'playing a game' are two deadly insults in a gameshow where actually thoughtful strategy and a degree of deviousness can be very useful. On the whole I prefer my big brothers taken straight, as far away as possible from the American model, which is why I far prefer to see a Rachel or Sophie win rather than an Aaron; it is interesting that he nearly got into BB5 and 8, neither of which imo he would have won; he lucked into a series where all the non-strategic players were dislikeable or weak so he had a pretty clear run at things.
Not at all, I defended Josie because she was treated appalling on here, she was called the most disgusting names and some fms wishing horrible things to happen to her. I might add that I considered these said fms to be quite intelligent people and was gobsmacked by their attitudes to her.
I think most fms are hypocritical at times, depending on who their favourite is at the time.
I wasn't aware that she bullied anyone, according to many on this forum Gina bullied Hazel, and that's ridiculous.
I'm struggling to make sense of that. Please say something more about what you think Aaron did (and where) that you think Victor wasn't in a position to do because he was out so early.
Re how Aaron "manipulated other housemates" -- what did he do and to what end? All I can remember him saying is about leading HMs to make certain nomination choices.
That seems to me legitimate tactics, rather than game-playing in the pejorative sense.
I'm asking you what things seemed good / interesting / enjoyable to you in bb13 that didn't involve Deana, so it's fine that it's subjective. Of course, I might hate it all. We'll see.
The prayers stuff doesn't count because it involved Deana. It doesn't matter that your reasons for finding it funny weren't because of Deana per se.
The context here is that you couldn't see how I could think "Deana went far towards ruining bb13", because (you said) "if you didn't like her, she wasn't a very dominant character - no one really took over BB13 and Deana was pretty quiet for a lot of it."
So let's take out all the things that involved Deana (not only when she was physically present) and see what's left, even for you.
Yes, but I don't think it's only a HM's fans who use them as a measuring gage. I wasn't trying to make a point about fans, but about the reaction in general.
I don't think Deana saw Sara as a friend. I think she saw Sara as someone she could do a Paxman on for her own amusement. As I said in the rest of that paragraph, "Deana's way of arguing was annoying and was intended to be. Her tactic was to get the other person more and more irritated and loud, so that they'd be the one who looked bad." She was happy to use those tactics against Sara.
I also think it was quite telling when Deana said (once Conor was off in the White Room) that she'd been able to show only half her character. When asked what the other half was like said she'd have gone wild if someone had spoken to her in the dismissive way Becky did.
Yes, absolutely legitimate. He played a difficult situation very well. I can't see any reason to blame him at all for it. You seem to be straying into farscape territory here in seeing a criticism where there was none. My point is that housemates are extremely reluctant to admit to any degree of tactics, strategies or game playing at ALL, even when it is no more than sensible. Aaron was the only person I can think of happy to say that, "I said x which tricked so and so into doing y". Other people will not say so because 'game playing' is considered a deadly insult, or because they don't want to disclose how utterly their attempts at playing a game failed. Ok, though it is always a bit cringy to try and give a list of favourite moments - they are often trivial and may strike other people as either pointless, dull or emetic. But these are a few of the incidents I remember liking in BB13; some involved Deana but a lot didn't.
1. Caroline's relationship with Chris, especially their date.
2. Sara's bad dates task, with the others competing to see how quickly she would buzz them.
3. Benedict unbolting a chair and carrying it out of the house, stopping to tell Luke S to enjoy the curry powder.
4. Luke A's determination to lose the key task, inability to do so (I still think BB had fixed it so the other team had no winning keys), his attempt to look celebratory in the diary room afterwards and almost speechless relief when it was overturned.
5. The box task: Luke S, Adam, Luke A and Deana standing on the boxes for 13 hours, then Luke A getting off about three minutes after Luke S.
6. The magic potions task.
7. Caroline having to put her hand into three boxes in the diary room; her shrieks and tears, and saying, "that one had sperm in it!" and Luke saying "I hope not, I got some in my eye!"
8. Deana's relaxion tape in which someone was eaten by a crocodile.
9. The boats task, with Adam and Becky were put in the same boat, which rapidly sank to the music from the Titanic.
10. Luke A jumping clear over Adam to get away from a dive-bombing moth.
11. Deana praying to God to look after Luke and Adam, and Luke saying anxiously, "can you say Luke A please?"
12. The museum task, and the exhibits getting more and more out of control until they had the world's noisiest silent disco.
That'll do (pig).
I did think Deana saw Sara as a friend at that time. I always thought Deana really wanted to be part of a gossipy girl group, trying on clothes and makeup etc. She seemed really happy when Sara seemed up for it. It took her a long time to accept that she really wasn't liked by the other girls, including, it seemed, Sara, so she had to ally herself with two men who liked talking about cars instead. I don't remember it. I'm not disputing it, I just don't remember it. I do of course remember her tormenting of Luke S, but that is all.
I think that's mixing together a bunch of different things. It's hard to be sure what people mean when they talk of "playing a game" or "playing the game", but I thought the issue was about which HMs had openly admitted to playing -- and not about whether they could or did reveal skill at it, or whether they were entertaining.
Since it isn't clear what people mean when they talk of "playing a game" or "playing the game", I was asking what the HMS did or admitted to that was playing a/the game.
Victor has long had the reputation of having come clean in the DR (and so with viewers) about his strategy and tactics in the BB game. I can no longer remember quite what he said, but he did at least say something about it.
Another is Sezer. I can't recall quite what he said either, but there was at least something about how he was going to "bully" opinions out of Aisleyen so that Richard would defend her.
BTW, I don't understand why you're placing some much emphasis on "the public domain". Is it a way to make it not count if a HM says something in the BB house or in the DR, but only if they say it -- I don't know -- somewhere else, later?
You seemed to me lumping that sort of playing the BB game in with things like whether a HM was "real" / being themself or tried to create a false persona.
So far as I can recall without searching out old threads, Aaron said he'd created a persona in order to be selected as a HM -- something little different from what Callum said he'd done to get into bb14, or even Dawn said about getting into bb7, or what Aisleyne said in her book about acting like a ghetto princess (I'm not saying that's a complete list) -- and that he'd tricked some HMs about nominations. None of that would mean he hadn't been himself in the house.