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Should Lord Reynard apologise ?

JELLIES0JELLIES0 Posts: 6,709
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Amidst demands from Lib Dem colleagues and others should Lord Reynard apologise for sexual harrassment in spite of an inquiry finding insufficient evidence to condemn him ?

There was an interesting exchange on the Today programme this morning between John Humphreys and a party worker.

Party worker "Lord Reynard has failed to show that he is innocent"
JH "The trouble is, in this country it's up to someone else to show that you are guilty"
Party worker "That's where the whole thing goes pear shaped ....."

In the words of that esteemed journalist Richard Littlejohn "you couldn't make it up"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25747951
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    smudges dadsmudges dad Posts: 36,989
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    It seems bizarre. Clegg is doing himself no favours by pandering to one group in the party. Reynard denies he has done anything wrong and there is insufficient evidence even for an internal hearing, let alone a court, but Clegg insists he should apologise. Are the Lib Dems heading towards an Animal Farm scenario?
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    AnnsyreAnnsyre Posts: 109,504
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    It seems bizarre. Clegg is doing himself no favours by pandering to one group in the party. Reynard denies he has done anything wrong and there is insufficient evidence even for an internal hearing, let alone a court, but Clegg insists he should apologise. Are the Lib Dems heading towards an Animal Farm scenario?

    Liberals take a far more laid back approach in such matters. Clegg did nothing about it when the allegations first circulated and he is in a mire of his own making.

    At least one of the females involved has vowed to leave the Party (presumably with as much publicity as possible) if Reynard is allowed to carry on in his present position.

    Not everything can be judged in court case terms. When several women complained over a period of time that Reynard is a sex pest then the matter should have become a matter of internal Party disciplinary proceedings then and there.

    Perhaps Clegg is just thankful that no dogs or an attempted murder were involved.
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    JELLIES0JELLIES0 Posts: 6,709
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    Annsyre wrote: »
    Liberals take a far more laid back approach in such matters. Clegg did nothing about it when the allegations first circulated and he is in a mire of his own making.

    At least one of the females involved has vowed to leave the Party (presumably with as much publicity as possible) if Reynard is allowed to carry on in his present position.

    Not everything can be judged in court case terms. When several women complained over a period of time that Reynard is a sex pest then the matter should have become a matter of internal Party disciplinary proceedings then and there.

    Perhaps Clegg is just thankful that no dogs or an attempted murder were involved.

    The independent inquiry concluded that there is insufficient evidence against Lord Reynard to satisfy even the standard of a civil action let alone a criminal prosecution. It should be the end of the story as far as I can see, unless further hard evidence emerges.
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    flagpoleflagpole Posts: 44,641
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    he says he is innocent.

    why the **** should he apologise.
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    Auld SnodyAuld Snody Posts: 15,171
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    flagpole wrote: »
    he says he is innocent.

    why the **** should he apologise.

    Other people, say he is guilty.
    Why doesn't he apologise.
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    smudges dadsmudges dad Posts: 36,989
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    Auld Snody wrote: »
    Other people, say he is guilty.
    Why doesn't he apologise.

    Would you apologise for something you haven't done?
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    AnnsyreAnnsyre Posts: 109,504
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    JELLIES0 wrote: »
    The independent inquiry concluded that there is insufficient evidence against Lord Reynard to satisfy even the standard of a civil action let alone a criminal prosecution. It should be the end of the story as far as I can see, unless further hard evidence emerges.

    I have just said that not everything can be judged in court case terms. Within a group, the group itself determines what is acceptable and what is unacceptable ( e.g. the Brownies, a golf club, a political party) If within the group a person behaves unacceptably then they should be warned and if necessary thrown out.

    Reynard's behaviour over a period of time was unacceptable to members of the party, they complained and their complaints at the time were either ignored or not taken seriously. The fact that these unacceptable behaviours happened over a long period of time shows either that he thinks it is appropriate to touch women or that the LibDem does not value what its female members are saying.

    There will be resignations and more bad publicity.
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    AnnsyreAnnsyre Posts: 109,504
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    Would you apologise for something you haven't done?

    Reynard does not think that his behaviour towards women is unacceptable and consequently he does not think that he has done anything wrong. That is the dilemma. The women whom he offended do think that he has something wrong which is why they complained in the first place.
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    DM AndyDM Andy Posts: 2,828
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    Sorry for being pedantic, but the guy's name is Chris Rennard, Lord Rennard if you really want but not Reynard.

    Don't have a view on whether he should apologise as haven't read the report.
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    AnnsyreAnnsyre Posts: 109,504
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    DM Andy wrote: »
    Sorry for being pedantic, but the guy's name is Chris Rennard, Lord Rennard if you really want but not Reynard.

    Don't have a view on whether he should apologise as haven't read the report.

    Oops! Apologies.:blush:
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    jcafcwjcafcw Posts: 11,282
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    I think that when a number of women have made complaints about your behaviour then it is time to look in the mirror and wonder if you have to modify it.
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    nanscombenanscombe Posts: 16,588
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    Auld Snody wrote: »
    Other people, say he is guilty.
    Why doesn't he apologise.

    Why doesn't he just ... "Prove it!"
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    AnnsyreAnnsyre Posts: 109,504
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    jcafcw wrote: »
    I think that when a number of women have made complaints about your behaviour then it is time to look in the mirror and wonder if you have to modify it.

    I agree. But if you are an individual but also a member of a group e.g. a political party then how you behave also has wider implications and if it contravenes the party's rules then it is more serious. The dilemma seems to be that some women in the party find his behaviour unacceptable and he doesn't.

    Clegg is now on the horns of the dilemma.
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    droogiefretdroogiefret Posts: 24,117
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    jcafcw wrote: »
    I think that when a number of women have made complaints about your behaviour then it is time to look in the mirror and wonder if you have to modify it.

    I can't help but be struck by the parallels between these allegations and those being faced in Court by Dave Lee Travis.
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    warlordwarlord Posts: 3,292
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    Auld Snody wrote: »
    Other people, say he is guilty.
    Why doesn't he apologise.
    Lord Rennard has not been allowed to see the Webster report. If he were now to follow Mr Clegg’s call and “do the decent thing” by admitting he had done some indecent things, he would be saying sorry without exactly knowing what he was saying sorry for. He would be contradicting his own witnesses, some of whom actually saw some of the incidents complained of and have testified that he did nothing wrong. He would also lay himself open to civil damages in actions brought by all the women. He would be ruined, morally and financially.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/liberaldemocrats/10579983/Lord-Rennard-Even-podgy-Liberal-Democrat-peers-deserve-justice-Nick-Clegg.html
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    Andy2Andy2 Posts: 11,949
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    He should say sorry only if it is proven that he did something in the first place. Telling someone to apologise for something they haven't done is ludicrous.
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    RaferRafer Posts: 14,231
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    Andy2 wrote: »
    He should say sorry only if it is proven that he did something in the first place. Telling someone to apologise for something they haven't done is ludicrous.

    Is tantamount to making a confession for something you didn't do.
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    JELLIES0JELLIES0 Posts: 6,709
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    Annsyre wrote: »
    I have just said that not everything can be judged in court case terms. Within a group, the group itself determines what is acceptable and what is unacceptable ( e.g. the Brownies, a golf club, a political party) If within the group a person behaves unacceptably then they should be warned and if necessary thrown out.

    Reynard's behaviour over a period of time was unacceptable to members of the party, they complained and their complaints at the time were either ignored or not taken seriously. The fact that these unacceptable behaviours happened over a long period of time shows either that he thinks it is appropriate to touch women or that the LibDem does not value what its female members are saying.

    There will be resignations and more bad publicity.

    What is better placed to judge than a court of law, or failing that an independent inquiry ?

    The women from the Take A Break advert perhaps ?
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    angarrackangarrack Posts: 5,493
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    I can't help but be struck by the parallels between these allegations and those being faced in Court by Dave Lee Travis.

    Similar but essentially different.

    Most of the Travis complainants were very young girls at the time. Young naive girls were unlikely to get far with complaints of that nature.

    The Rennard complainants are all mature women and supposedly intelligent with some status in the Party. The question is why didn't they feel their complaints would be believed. Or did they hold back for fear of jeopardising their political career?
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    AnnsyreAnnsyre Posts: 109,504
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    JELLIES0 wrote: »
    What is better placed to judge than a court of law, or failing that an independent inquiry ?

    The women from the Take A Break advert perhaps ?

    You have missed my point entirely.

    What he has done is an internal matter for his Party to deal with. That is because the women concerned took their complaints to the Party.

    The fall out is going to be very damaging for all those who did not act when the complaints were first raised.
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    AnnsyreAnnsyre Posts: 109,504
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    angarrack wrote: »
    Similar but essentially different.

    Most of the Travis complainants were very young girls at the time. Young naive girls were unlikely to get far with complaints of that nature.

    The Rennard complainants are all mature women and supposedly intelligent with some status in the Party. The question is why didn't they feel their complaints would be believed. Or did they hold back for fear of jeopardising their political career?

    But they did complain at the time and were not taken seriously, possibly because Rennard was so good at helping the LibDems win seats.
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    Biffo the BearBiffo the Bear Posts: 25,859
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    Perhaps the Liberal Democrats should apologise to all the people they betrayed who voted for them in 2010 first.
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    AnnsyreAnnsyre Posts: 109,504
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    Perhaps the Liberal Democrats should apologise to all the people they betrayed who voted for them in 2010 first.

    Fair comment. Many LibDems still feel aggrieved although I can't help but admire them for making sure that the tax allowance has been raised putting money into people's pockets which the otherwise would not have received.
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    AnnsyreAnnsyre Posts: 109,504
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    Clegg's response

    Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg has said Lord Rennard should not rejoin the party's group in the House of Lords unless he apologises to female activists over allegations of sexual harassment.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25788034
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    flagpoleflagpole Posts: 44,641
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    Perhaps the Liberal Democrats should apologise to all the people they betrayed who voted for them in 2010 first.

    if they should apologise for anything i would rather it were campaigning to have someone elected as PM when they knew he was an alcoholic.

    which i view as disgraceful.
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