No. It's not how much information you know. It's your capacity to use what you know. The ability to implement what you know to solve problems in the real world. Just because you know what happens at the end of Tale of Two Cities does not mean that you know why it happened or that you can fully understand or apply the themes of the book to real world situations.
I was referring to factual books which explain why certain things happen.
I think the likelihood is no Oxbridge students would post here.(other than maybe the technical sections) I think this forum is very much Joe_public(and that includes me) which means we're a little bit of a drop in the ocean.
(we can still laugh at those Oxbridge students who jumped off a bridge into a shallow river though)
There may not be many Oxbridge students on DS but there is at least one Mum of one
It all depends on what you mean by intelligent. Those students who go to Oxbridge especially those from the state school sector are by and large amongst the most academic, some private schools though do tutor students specifically to get there.
However, many exceptional students also go elsewhere to study out of choice, or as some have already mentioned because their face didn't fit at the interview so they passed the exam requirements but were not offered a place.
Being academic does not make you intelligent and personally I set a much greater store by common sense and general knowledge. Oxbridge certainly has it's fair share of graduates who are very good at studying and knowledgeable about their subject, but not quite so capable and useful out in the real world. I know that from experience
When i was there, I was asked if I was from Scotland, because I had said I was from 'the North' In the eyes of many Oxford students it goes:
Scotland
Oxford
London
There is nothing further North in England...
There are of course intelligent people there. I would rate people from state schools at Oxford higher than those privately educated. Despite what they might like to say, they do not take equally from state and private schools. Not by a long shot.
I lived in Oxford for 20 years, having attended and worked in the university.
It is like another world within the university confines. A typical student could go to boarding school at 6, then go straight to university at 18 without seeing much of the 'real' world.
You need good grades to get in, so you need to be able to pass exams, but it is how you fit into their world that matters. After graduation, there is a good chance you will get work through your contacts.
As for being world wise, I would say no. Most of the time they don't look where they are going when they cross the road.
When i was there, I was asked if I was from Scotland, because I had said I was from 'the North' In the eyes of many Oxford students it goes:
Scotland
Oxford
London
There is nothing further North in England...
There are of course intelligent people there. I would rate people from state schools at Oxford higher than those privately educated. Despite what they might like to say, they do not take equally from state and private schools. Not by a long shot.
Some state schools in Oxford are right dives. Some of the private schools in Oxford look very good, however.
The grammar school I attended was really challenging and two years ahead of the non grammar state schools.
I lived in Oxford for 20 years, having attended and worked in the university.
It is like another world within the university confines. A typical student could go to boarding school at 6, then go straight to university at 18 without seeing much of the 'real' world.
You need good grades to get in, so you need to be able to pass exams, but it is how you fit into their world that matters. After graduation, there is a good chance you will get work through your contacts.
As for being world wise, I would say no. Most of the time they don't look where they are going when they cross the road.
Well, I must be the exception to the rule then. I hold a 1st class honours degree from Oxford, and yet I attended a bog-standard high school and college. I also happen to be pretty 'World wise' too thanks to having travelled pretty extensively.
Just for the record, I'm also the 1st member of my family to ever read anything at University too. My family and I are nothing else but pure working class.
Well, I must be the exception to the rule then. I hold a 1st class honours degree from Oxford, and yet I attended a bog-standard high school and college. I also happen to be pretty 'World wise' too thanks to having travelled pretty extensively.
Just for the record, I'm also the 1st member of my family to ever read anything at University too.
Of course you can, I was a pupil at 'Oakhill High School', which halfway through my time there merged with the local rival school 'Thistley Hough High School' and ended up being called 'Trent Valley High School'.
College was Newcastle College of Tertiary Education.
Of course you can, I was a pupil at 'Oakhill High School', which halfway through my time there merged with the local rival school 'Thistley Hough High School' and ended up being called 'Trent Valley High School'.
College was Newcastle College of Tertiary Education.
To bring it back to the OP, Oxbridge aren't exclusively the most intelligent, but they along with other Russell Group Uni's probably make up most of the upper percentile. But like life there will be exceptions for and against.
As for should they dominate the running of the country? Well I'd like a large portion of Parliament and the Civil Service to be well read, and proven to be able to assimilate detail, which seems to be a lot of what Uni study does (only a couple of O-level myself).
I'd also like to have people, who have worked in a variety of industries and vocations prior to the move to government, they might have never been to tertiary education, but they will have much to bring to their posts.
The other point that seems to always come up about access to Oxbridge being exclusive to the privilege few, I see fellow students of my daughter from all walks of life. The overseas students are mostly from privileged background due to the nature of the fees and loan system, but the UK ones are a from state schools, and private education.
If the state schools entrants are in a minority, that is more likely due to the state schools than Oxbridge entry methods.
For the record I not sure what social group we fall in to, and we don't wear our background like badge. I am the son of a
sheet metal worker and left state school with no qualifications, picking up a O-level at college. My kids went to state schools (incidentally moving schools often), one went to 6th form and one went to local college. Both are at Uni, one vocational studies, one academic. Both are extremely self motivated and self reliant.
It all depends on what you mean by intelligent. Those students who go to Oxbridge especially those from the state school sector are by and large amongst the most academic, some private schools though do tutor students specifically to get there.
However, many exceptional students also go elsewhere to study out of choice,
All good points. I remember the Standard reporting from the big Oxbridge outreach day in London where hundreds of state schools with no Oxbridge record were encouraged to send their brightest pupils along to have a look. The most common reason for them not applying seemed to be not so much lack of confidence as that they saw both Oxford and Cambridge as dull, small-town universities with no night life. Which for most students they are. I had two daughters at cambridge and neither of them set foot in a club of any kind (unless you count a college bar) in their entire three years.
Being academic does not make you intelligent and personally I set a much greater store by common sense and general knowledge. Oxbridge certainly has it's fair share of graduates who are very good at studying and knowledgeable about their subject, but not quite so capable and useful out in the real world. I know that from experience
Being 'academic' is a perfectly valid form of intelligence. Of course it may not go hand in hand with practical skills or common sense, but it surely shows an ability to analyse complex data and express difficult concepts clearly. If there is a problem with modern politicians it is surely not that they went to Oxbridge but that so many of them went straight from Oxbridge into politics without passing non-political life on the way.
Being 'academic' is a perfectly valid form of intelligence. Of course it may not go hand in hand with practical skills or common sense, but it surely shows an ability to analyse complex data and express difficult concepts clearly.
All I can say is you have not yet had the misfortune to meet my brother - he got a first class honours degree from Oxford and he can barely manage to process data as complex as turning on an oven or managing a bank account
Academically he can spout facts and figures 'til Kingdom come but ask him to change a lightbulb or get the weekly shopping in and he'll go to pieces. He has also never managed to settle down to a career or find a steady job, he drifts from one seat of learning to another with occasional "work" in between. Books and studying is all he seems capable of.
I'm not saying that being academic is not a valid form of inteligence - of course it is and we must have academics or else who will run the Universities in the first place ?
I am saying that there is more to being intelligent than academic ability alone. I also graduated from Oxford, though I only got a 2:1 - such a huge disappointment to my parents.
I am married to a man who never even sat O levels (he was not deemed bright enough) and on paper would not be classed as intelligent if you looked at results.
However he is an expert in his field (theatre and stage lighting and electrical effects) and has become very successful in what he does. I would class him as cleverer than my brother for all his A's and first class honours. At least he has a job for a start !
Brighter than average university students? Yes - competition for Oxbridge places means that (like any top university) they will be able to select the best
Are all the brightest students at Oxbridge? No. The best students at any top Uni, and in the best courses in most will be as able as the best of those who go to Oxbridge
This ^^^^
It's hard, although not impossible, to get into Oxbridge if you are not very bright, so when dealing with averages, they are very bright.
But there are many other universities, and particular degree subjects where they will accept only the brightest, many of whom could have got into Oxbridge if they had the inclination. Oxbridge graduates are not going to be any more intelligent than those.
On the other hand, there are some universities and certain subjects, where they are prepared to take less able students either because they aren't pretending to be part of the elite, or because they need to make up the numbers to fill a course. This is what brings down average intelligence for non-Oxbridge students. Or to put it another way, there is a great more variability in intelligence amongst students of non-Oxbridge universities.
That's without entering into the debate about non-academic intelligence where very capable people don't go to university at all.
I don't have a big problem with there being a number of people in influence educated within Oxbridge, especially when you remember that each university is made up of many colleges, but it is a concern that there are so many from that background. For all that they are high achievers, they have a restricted background that is too similar to each other to be able to represesent the country as a whole when they get together, especially when so many of them studied the same subjects. I have a similar concern about too many privately educated people in the cabinet. Nothing against any individual, but as a collective group, they don't have enough different experiences.
Comments
I was referring to factual books which explain why certain things happen.
Ditto
Plus one of the neighbours kids is at Harvard, and at least one other from W-s-M at Oxford.
It's probably statistically not that unusual, despite common beliefs.
You'd think by 16 they would have already taught you how averages work.
However, many exceptional students also go elsewhere to study out of choice, or as some have already mentioned because their face didn't fit at the interview so they passed the exam requirements but were not offered a place.
Being academic does not make you intelligent and personally I set a much greater store by common sense and general knowledge. Oxbridge certainly has it's fair share of graduates who are very good at studying and knowledgeable about their subject, but not quite so capable and useful out in the real world. I know that from experience
When i was there, I was asked if I was from Scotland, because I had said I was from 'the North' In the eyes of many Oxford students it goes:
Scotland
Oxford
London
There is nothing further North in England...
There are of course intelligent people there. I would rate people from state schools at Oxford higher than those privately educated. Despite what they might like to say, they do not take equally from state and private schools. Not by a long shot.
It is like another world within the university confines. A typical student could go to boarding school at 6, then go straight to university at 18 without seeing much of the 'real' world.
You need good grades to get in, so you need to be able to pass exams, but it is how you fit into their world that matters. After graduation, there is a good chance you will get work through your contacts.
As for being world wise, I would say no. Most of the time they don't look where they are going when they cross the road.
Some state schools in Oxford are right dives. Some of the private schools in Oxford look very good, however.
The grammar school I attended was really challenging and two years ahead of the non grammar state schools.
Well, I must be the exception to the rule then. I hold a 1st class honours degree from Oxford, and yet I attended a bog-standard high school and college. I also happen to be pretty 'World wise' too thanks to having travelled pretty extensively.
Just for the record, I'm also the 1st member of my family to ever read anything at University too. My family and I are nothing else but pure working class.
Can I ask which school you attended?
You sound to have the best of all worlds.
Congratulations on your achievement:)
Of course you can, I was a pupil at 'Oakhill High School', which halfway through my time there merged with the local rival school 'Thistley Hough High School' and ended up being called 'Trent Valley High School'.
College was Newcastle College of Tertiary Education.
Trent Valley High School is in Staffordshire
Yeah I know, it's literally just up the road from me and I'm not doing what most people do and misusing the term 'literally'.
Duh! Lack of sleep kicking in:o
I thought you went to a state school in Oxford(shire) like wot I did:D
As for should they dominate the running of the country? Well I'd like a large portion of Parliament and the Civil Service to be well read, and proven to be able to assimilate detail, which seems to be a lot of what Uni study does (only a couple of O-level myself).
I'd also like to have people, who have worked in a variety of industries and vocations prior to the move to government, they might have never been to tertiary education, but they will have much to bring to their posts.
The other point that seems to always come up about access to Oxbridge being exclusive to the privilege few, I see fellow students of my daughter from all walks of life. The overseas students are mostly from privileged background due to the nature of the fees and loan system, but the UK ones are a from state schools, and private education.
If the state schools entrants are in a minority, that is more likely due to the state schools than Oxbridge entry methods.
For the record I not sure what social group we fall in to, and we don't wear our background like badge. I am the son of a
sheet metal worker and left state school with no qualifications, picking up a O-level at college. My kids went to state schools (incidentally moving schools often), one went to 6th form and one went to local college. Both are at Uni, one vocational studies, one academic. Both are extremely self motivated and self reliant.
Being 'academic' is a perfectly valid form of intelligence. Of course it may not go hand in hand with practical skills or common sense, but it surely shows an ability to analyse complex data and express difficult concepts clearly. If there is a problem with modern politicians it is surely not that they went to Oxbridge but that so many of them went straight from Oxbridge into politics without passing non-political life on the way.
All I can say is you have not yet had the misfortune to meet my brother - he got a first class honours degree from Oxford and he can barely manage to process data as complex as turning on an oven or managing a bank account
Academically he can spout facts and figures 'til Kingdom come but ask him to change a lightbulb or get the weekly shopping in and he'll go to pieces. He has also never managed to settle down to a career or find a steady job, he drifts from one seat of learning to another with occasional "work" in between. Books and studying is all he seems capable of.
I'm not saying that being academic is not a valid form of inteligence - of course it is and we must have academics or else who will run the Universities in the first place ?
I am saying that there is more to being intelligent than academic ability alone. I also graduated from Oxford, though I only got a 2:1 - such a huge disappointment to my parents.
I am married to a man who never even sat O levels (he was not deemed bright enough) and on paper would not be classed as intelligent if you looked at results.
However he is an expert in his field (theatre and stage lighting and electrical effects) and has become very successful in what he does. I would class him as cleverer than my brother for all his A's and first class honours. At least he has a job for a start !
It's hard, although not impossible, to get into Oxbridge if you are not very bright, so when dealing with averages, they are very bright.
But there are many other universities, and particular degree subjects where they will accept only the brightest, many of whom could have got into Oxbridge if they had the inclination. Oxbridge graduates are not going to be any more intelligent than those.
On the other hand, there are some universities and certain subjects, where they are prepared to take less able students either because they aren't pretending to be part of the elite, or because they need to make up the numbers to fill a course. This is what brings down average intelligence for non-Oxbridge students. Or to put it another way, there is a great more variability in intelligence amongst students of non-Oxbridge universities.
That's without entering into the debate about non-academic intelligence where very capable people don't go to university at all.
I don't have a big problem with there being a number of people in influence educated within Oxbridge, especially when you remember that each university is made up of many colleges, but it is a concern that there are so many from that background. For all that they are high achievers, they have a restricted background that is too similar to each other to be able to represesent the country as a whole when they get together, especially when so many of them studied the same subjects. I have a similar concern about too many privately educated people in the cabinet. Nothing against any individual, but as a collective group, they don't have enough different experiences.