Reading some of the posts in this thread, I can't understand why some/quite a few meat eaters and vegetarians/vegans feel the need to go lecturing others about what they eat. Meat eaters should be able to eat meat without being lectured about how an animal died to feed them, and vegetarians and vegans should be free to eat plant based food without being told that they need meat. People in this world aren't the same when it comes to the choices they make. That's the good thing about a lot of people in this world, they're different.
One of my best friends is vegan. She's the healthiest person I know. Doesn't look even remotely pasty.
My uncle would eat a meal unless it's half meat. He's diabetic, overweight and suffers terribly with gout.
Why? Because she eats a healthy varied diet that happens to contain no meat and he over does it with everything and eats too much red meat.
Your diet can be unhealthy no matter what dietary lifestyle you decide to go with.
I'm veggie. My diet is crap. But that's because I don't like food, I see it as an annoyance. Having to stop what I'm doing to make food because I'm hungry annoys me. So I always go for the quick option. Hence my diet not being balanced and healthy.
I'm the opposite. Even though I'm not overweight, I love sitting down and getting ready to have my meal. I enjoy every mouthful I take. I must have sensitive tastebuds because I can taste all the salt, the tomato stuff in baked beans, the tomatoes and other things. But yeah, I love meal times. I don't go mad eating though, I just have a typical adult-sized meal.
You do realise don't you that the issue you've raised is an argument to go vegan not the other way around? It is actually one of the main arguments for going vegan (or more accurately mostly vegan), if you don't realise this I suggest you think about it a bit more deeply than you have already.
It's not an argument to go vegan at all. There are pros and cons of the vegan way as far as environmental impact is concerned but many ignore the cons. Soy is probably the most widely known one. Many vegans will now no longer eat it because of the negative impact it's having particularly in South America. The World Wildlife Fund did a study and found that one of their greatest concerns about the growing popularity of these animal protein replacements was that the likes of soy, chickpeas and lentils require a huge amount of land to be farmed in the quantities required to feed human demand, particularly because chickpeas and lentils are very low yield. Similarly there's some interesting articles out there about whether we could realistically stop using leather, wool and silk and claim this was more environmentally conscious (many believe that the resulting upsurge in the cotton and synthetics industry would be disastrous).
I have been vegan for more years than I care to remember and I can tell you, there's nothing pastey about me. I look and feel healthy because I eat a varied and healthy diet !
It's not an argument to go vegan at all. There are pros and cons of the vegan way as far as environmental impact is concerned but many ignore the cons. Soy is probably the most widely known one. Many vegans will now no longer eat it because of the negative impact it's having particularly in South America. The World Wildlife Fund did a study and found that one of their greatest concerns about the growing popularity of these animal protein replacements was that the likes of soy, chickpeas and lentils require a huge amount of land to be farmed in the quantities required to feed human demand, particularly because chickpeas and lentils are very low yield. Similarly there's some interesting articles out there about whether we could realistically stop using leather, wool and silk and claim this was more environmentally conscious (many believe that the resulting upsurge in the cotton and synthetics industry would be disastrous).
You also need to think about this. Eating animals is a secondary source of food as the animals have to eat plants to grow for humans to eat them, this process is very inefficient. Forget about 100% grass fed that is a tiny minority of the meat or dairy eaten.
Eating animals means more land being put over to agriculture than eating plants. By far the majority of soya grown is used to feed animals, primarily beef cattle.
Raising animals also uses a large amount of energy and water compared to eating the plants directly and is a significant contribution to climate change.
You also need to think about this. Eating animals is a secondary source of food as the animals have to eat plants to grow for humans to eat them, this process is very inefficient. Forget about 100% grass fed that is a tiny minority of the meat or dairy eaten.
Eating animals means more land being put over to agriculture than eating plants. By far the majority of soya grown is used to feed animals, primarily beef cattle.
Raising animals also uses a large amount of energy and water compared to eating the plants directly and is a significant contribution to climate change.
A sheep can graze wild on hillsides and pastures where no crops could be grown.
Reading some of the posts in this thread, I can't understand why some/quite a few meat eaters and vegetarians/vegans feel the need to go lecturing others about what they eat. Meat eaters should be able to eat meat without being lectured about how an animal died to feed them, and vegetarians and vegans should be free to eat plant based food without being told that they need meat. People in this world aren't the same when it comes to the choices they make. That's the good thing about a lot of people in this world, they're different.
I totally agree. People should eat what they want without being judged or having to deal with sermons
But unless I've missed a post somewhere I haven't seen anyone in this thread lecturing about how an animal died to feed them.
but how much meat can be produced by using land like that?
Quite a lot globally. Just illustrating the point that a sheep being raised on Welsh hillside has far less of an environmental impact than the destruction of pristine Amazon rainforest for the production of soya. Not all meat rearing is bad for the environment.
most, maybe all, soya that comes from South America, goes to feed farm animals.
I'm not sure that using non-farmable land across the world would provide much meat per meat eater.
most, maybe all, soya that comes from South America, goes to feed farm animals.
I'm not sure that using non-farmable land across the world would provide much meat per meat eater.
Its not all. Much of it goes on human food and bio fuel too.
Unless you eat only local organic food, the environmental impact of your diet maybe huge. Who knows what natural environment has been destroyed for farmland, what pesticides or fertilisers have been used and those thousands of air miles to import the food.
I'm not vegan, I am vegetarian though. I used to find comments like that irritating, now I just think it comes across as uninformed and quite frankly airs on the ridiculous.
Just an excuse to make disparaging remarks simply because some people differ in their diet to others.
Well, precisely. I've been a pescatarian for many years (non-land-animal meat eating but occasional consumer of fish). Before this I was a vegetarian. I am on the cusp of becoming a vegan because of what I have seen happens to the animals (including fish) in the process of becoming meat/giving us milk/eggs. (For instance, they keep cows pregnant to utilise their milk, and kill the male calves almost right away; cattle are kept in horrendous conditions irrespective of how legislation tries to ensure thay are not and male chicks (those cute little creatures we see on easter egss and the likes) are mangled and crushed at birth because they are of little use to an egg-producing farmer).
I'm sorry, but I do not want any animal to suffer on my behalf. Animals have just as much right to a pleasant life as we do. We are all animals (yes, humans are animals too) and we would not stand for this if we did the same to human babies. Mankind is probably the worst plague on the planet, with the arrogance to imagine that just because we can speak and have greater 'intelligence', it gives us carte blanche to torture, maim and brutally kill those species who do not have the means to tell us how they are feeling (and animals feel pain, they have some form of emotion and they can be stressed just like us). I actually loathe the human species for what we do to animals and this planet.
And yes, I AM one of those 'tub-thumping' vegetarians - although I don't lecture my workmates/colleagues about it and would not stand up in a restaurant and call all the meat eaters names! I keep it confined to places like this, where I can express my opinion, or my FB page where I share information from sources who are fighting against these injustices.
And frankly, i don't care what anyone thinks of my stance!
I doubt these "vegan friends" exist. And, if they do, they need to choose their friends better. I'm pretty sure none of my friends would go to a message board and talk about how bad they think I look / mock my lifestyle to strangers online.
I have lots of friends but i honestly couldnt ever say "many of my friends are vegan" and truth be told neither could you really
I have two friends who are completely vegan; they buy all their vegetables from an ethical source (they checked) and have found substitutes for all the vegetarian foods they used to eat (cheese, eggs, milk etc).
I am a Vegan. I am also very fair but I don't look pasty and have quite a good color. I am also not skinny and my partner eats meat and so do my kids and most of my friends so I regularly cook non Vegan meals. I am never ill and never even get colds when everyone else has them.
However, I know several pasty and unfit looking people who eat meat, fish and cheese etc, who regularly seem to get ill. Perhaps I should start a thread entitled---- meat eaters, why do they look so pasty and ill?
Me too. There are faddy eaters who ascribe to every diet. I watch 'Come Dine with me' and the number of people who appear on there who don't eat certain foods makes me wonder why on earth they appear, knowing they're going to be eating different things throughout the week!
Likewise why do my friends who can't be arsed to cook and love macdonalds and KFC look so fat and gross?
Why do my friends who'd rather drink their calories in wine than eat look so tired and lack energy all the time?
Why does my friend who only eats meat, hates vegetables fart so bad?
And as for veggie restaurants not serving meat - well I get annoyed when going to a fish restaurant there's no steak and what about Thai restaurants that don't serve pasta? What is wrong with these places
I am the only Vegan I know. I know a lot of Vegetarians and some Pistacarians and meat eaters and I am healthier than any of them. The last time I saw a Doctor was 3 years ago and then it was to take some pills in that my late Father no longer needed.
I do however, know a number of unfit meat eaters.
Me too.
Did you mean pescatarians? I was one for a number of years!
To answer your question there are four main reasons that I can think of and it can be a single one or any combination. I'm not getting into a a discussion about the rights and wrongs, just giving you the reasons.
1. Health: It's generally healthier though of course it does depend on exactly what you eat.
2. Ethics: If people believe it is wrong to eat animals or use animals products then they don't so so.
3. The environment: Eating meat is a major factor in climate change, water and energy use.
4. Some people don't actually like the taste of meat.
The above options are why I am verging on the cusp of veganism and why I have been a pescatarian/vegetarian for so many years.
One of my best friends is vegan. She's the healthiest person I know. Doesn't look even remotely pasty.
My uncle would eat a meal unless it's half meat. He's diabetic, overweight and suffers terribly with gout.
Why? Because she eats a healthy varied diet that happens to contain no meat and he over does it with everything and eats too much red meat.
Your diet can be unhealthy no matter what dietary lifestyle you decide to go with.
I'm veggie. My diet is crap. But that's because I don't like food, I see it as an annoyance. Having to stop what I'm doing to make food because I'm hungry annoys me. So I always go for the quick option. Hence my diet not being balanced and healthy.
I used to be like that but now I have some amazing vegetarian and vegan cookbooks and have been experimenting and am quite enjoying myself - and enjoying my food!
Quite a lot globally. Just illustrating the point that a sheep being raised on Welsh hillside has far less of an environmental impact than the destruction of pristine Amazon rainforest for the production of soya. Not all meat rearing is bad for the environment.
Quite a lot globally. Just illustrating the point that a sheep being raised on Welsh hillside has far less of an environmental impact than the destruction of pristine Amazon rainforest for the production of soya. Not all meat rearing is bad for the environment.
The vast majority of Amazonian soya goes to feed animals, the fact that a small percentage is used to feed humans directly doesn't alter the main point.
As I said in my post the 100% grass fed animal is a very small percentage. Even a Welsh hill sheep has an environmental footprint and overgrazing is a problem in some areas as is flooding downland caused by raising sheep in areas they shouldn't be.
If you compare the environmental impacts of the best of animal production (sheep on hill farms) with the worst of plant farming (the small amount of Amazonian soya used for humans) then obviously you will get a different result than from more representative comparisons.
You don't get many fat vegans, they all tend to be pretty skinny from what I have seen. It's hard to gain a decent amount of muscle mass on a long term vegan diet, that's enough to put me off!
I am a size 16 vegan.I know plenty of chunky vegans, we still are allowed to love food you know
Unless you eat only local organic food, the environmental impact of your diet maybe huge. Who knows what natural environment has been destroyed for farmland, what pesticides or fertilisers have been used and those thousands of air miles to import the food.
You won't get any argument from me about the advantages of local which is often better (there are always exceptions), the point is that more natural environment is used for farming if you consume secondary protein (animals) rather than primary protein (plants) because of the inefficiencies of food conversion.
You don't get many fat vegans, they all tend to be pretty skinny from what I have seen. It's hard to gain a decent amount of muscle mass on a long term vegan diet, that's enough to put me off!
That's an advantage to most people, being skinny is much healthier and the major health problems in the UK come from being over rather than under weight.
there seem to be vegan body builders. I don't know any of their names.
I'm sure there is enough protein in plants like legumes, to be a body builder.
How many grams of protein does a body builder need each day?
We've had this discussion with Pumping Iron before. He says (and I don't have the expertise to contradict) that they are not large compared to others who eat meat. I must say they look large to me but I'm not a body builder.
There are a lot of hormones in meat and dairy so it may be that helps build the huge muscles, the protein intake shouldn't matter as you can easily get more than enough vegan. Of course you do have to realise that a lot of body builders are on steroids (a lot aren't as well before I get picked up). I don't want the hormones in me so if there is an affect I'd rather have slightly smaller muscles whereas body builders are a bit obsessed with size (a lot actually:)).
Comments
I'm the opposite. Even though I'm not overweight, I love sitting down and getting ready to have my meal. I enjoy every mouthful I take. I must have sensitive tastebuds because I can taste all the salt, the tomato stuff in baked beans, the tomatoes and other things. But yeah, I love meal times. I don't go mad eating though, I just have a typical adult-sized meal.
It's not an argument to go vegan at all. There are pros and cons of the vegan way as far as environmental impact is concerned but many ignore the cons. Soy is probably the most widely known one. Many vegans will now no longer eat it because of the negative impact it's having particularly in South America. The World Wildlife Fund did a study and found that one of their greatest concerns about the growing popularity of these animal protein replacements was that the likes of soy, chickpeas and lentils require a huge amount of land to be farmed in the quantities required to feed human demand, particularly because chickpeas and lentils are very low yield. Similarly there's some interesting articles out there about whether we could realistically stop using leather, wool and silk and claim this was more environmentally conscious (many believe that the resulting upsurge in the cotton and synthetics industry would be disastrous).
You also need to think about this. Eating animals is a secondary source of food as the animals have to eat plants to grow for humans to eat them, this process is very inefficient. Forget about 100% grass fed that is a tiny minority of the meat or dairy eaten.
Eating animals means more land being put over to agriculture than eating plants. By far the majority of soya grown is used to feed animals, primarily beef cattle.
Raising animals also uses a large amount of energy and water compared to eating the plants directly and is a significant contribution to climate change.
A sheep can graze wild on hillsides and pastures where no crops could be grown.
I totally agree. People should eat what they want without being judged or having to deal with sermons
But unless I've missed a post somewhere I haven't seen anyone in this thread lecturing about how an animal died to feed them.
but how much meat can be produced by using land like that?
Quite a lot globally. Just illustrating the point that a sheep being raised on Welsh hillside has far less of an environmental impact than the destruction of pristine Amazon rainforest for the production of soya. Not all meat rearing is bad for the environment.
I'm not sure that using non-farmable land across the world would provide much meat per meat eater.
Its not all. Much of it goes on human food and bio fuel too.
Unless you eat only local organic food, the environmental impact of your diet maybe huge. Who knows what natural environment has been destroyed for farmland, what pesticides or fertilisers have been used and those thousands of air miles to import the food.
Well, precisely. I've been a pescatarian for many years (non-land-animal meat eating but occasional consumer of fish). Before this I was a vegetarian. I am on the cusp of becoming a vegan because of what I have seen happens to the animals (including fish) in the process of becoming meat/giving us milk/eggs. (For instance, they keep cows pregnant to utilise their milk, and kill the male calves almost right away; cattle are kept in horrendous conditions irrespective of how legislation tries to ensure thay are not and male chicks (those cute little creatures we see on easter egss and the likes) are mangled and crushed at birth because they are of little use to an egg-producing farmer).
I'm sorry, but I do not want any animal to suffer on my behalf. Animals have just as much right to a pleasant life as we do. We are all animals (yes, humans are animals too) and we would not stand for this if we did the same to human babies. Mankind is probably the worst plague on the planet, with the arrogance to imagine that just because we can speak and have greater 'intelligence', it gives us carte blanche to torture, maim and brutally kill those species who do not have the means to tell us how they are feeling (and animals feel pain, they have some form of emotion and they can be stressed just like us). I actually loathe the human species for what we do to animals and this planet.
And yes, I AM one of those 'tub-thumping' vegetarians - although I don't lecture my workmates/colleagues about it and would not stand up in a restaurant and call all the meat eaters names! I keep it confined to places like this, where I can express my opinion, or my FB page where I share information from sources who are fighting against these injustices.
And frankly, i don't care what anyone thinks of my stance!
Well, quite.
I have two friends who are completely vegan; they buy all their vegetables from an ethical source (they checked) and have found substitutes for all the vegetarian foods they used to eat (cheese, eggs, milk etc).
Me too. There are faddy eaters who ascribe to every diet. I watch 'Come Dine with me' and the number of people who appear on there who don't eat certain foods makes me wonder why on earth they appear, knowing they're going to be eating different things throughout the week!
I'd got for the latter.
Me too.
Did you mean pescatarians? I was one for a number of years!
The above options are why I am verging on the cusp of veganism and why I have been a pescatarian/vegetarian for so many years.
I used to be like that but now I have some amazing vegetarian and vegan cookbooks and have been experimenting and am quite enjoying myself - and enjoying my food!
https://woods.stanford.edu/environmental-venture-projects/consequences-increased-global-meat-consumption-global-environment
An interesting take on the dangers of too much meat consumption on the environment.
The vast majority of Amazonian soya goes to feed animals, the fact that a small percentage is used to feed humans directly doesn't alter the main point.
As I said in my post the 100% grass fed animal is a very small percentage. Even a Welsh hill sheep has an environmental footprint and overgrazing is a problem in some areas as is flooding downland caused by raising sheep in areas they shouldn't be.
If you compare the environmental impacts of the best of animal production (sheep on hill farms) with the worst of plant farming (the small amount of Amazonian soya used for humans) then obviously you will get a different result than from more representative comparisons.
I am a size 16 vegan.I know plenty of chunky vegans, we still are allowed to love food you know
You won't get any argument from me about the advantages of local which is often better (there are always exceptions), the point is that more natural environment is used for farming if you consume secondary protein (animals) rather than primary protein (plants) because of the inefficiencies of food conversion.
That's an advantage to most people, being skinny is much healthier and the major health problems in the UK come from being over rather than under weight.
I'm sure there is enough protein in plants like legumes, to be a body builder.
How many grams of protein does a body builder need each day?
We've had this discussion with Pumping Iron before. He says (and I don't have the expertise to contradict) that they are not large compared to others who eat meat. I must say they look large to me but I'm not a body builder.
There are a lot of hormones in meat and dairy so it may be that helps build the huge muscles, the protein intake shouldn't matter as you can easily get more than enough vegan. Of course you do have to realise that a lot of body builders are on steroids (a lot aren't as well before I get picked up). I don't want the hormones in me so if there is an affect I'd rather have slightly smaller muscles whereas body builders are a bit obsessed with size (a lot actually:)).