The entire reason apples (and other fruit) exist is because they hold the seeds, which need to be carried away from the plant in order to spread and grow and fruit has evolved to be tasty to a range of animals in order to entice them to eat it. The seeds are protected to survive the digestive systems of animals so that they pass through and where the animal defecates, the seeds will lie and hopefully grow. Fruit is made of several things, such as sugar and water which are biologically costly for the plant to create, but it is worth it in evolutionary terms for their genes to carry on and make new plants.
As for the original argument, I am an ex-vegetarian and I don't really understand pescetarianism. I do if it's for taste or health reasons but I can't see a moral reason for it. Having said that, I've never heard anyone give a moral reason for it, so perhaps most just do it for other reasons. I don't judge other people for choosing to do it though, mostly because I've never really met any.
I do agree that vegetarians who choose not to eat meat for moral reasons should really choose their animal products from ethical sources - so no battery eggs etc. One thing that many people don't realise is quite unethical in this sense is milk - someone recently opened my eyes to the milk industry and it is very difficult to get milk which has been taken from cows who are treated completely humanely.
A minor point, but it isn't that fruit (or anything else) evolved "in order" to do anything. Evolution doesn't fulfil a need. Both tasty and non-tasty fruit would have occurred but the non-tasty fruit hindered reproduction and died out, whereas the tasty fruit aided reproduction and survived.
Who cares? My gf is pescatarian. Vegans don't get a moral high ground just because they don't eat animal products.
I think they do.
I have a lot of deep respect for vegetarians but particularly vegans.
Fundamentally, using animals for meat or to make byproducts such as milk/eggs doesn't strike me as being very 'right' morally speaking given the industrial nature of these processes.
It's not so bad if you got eggs handpicked yourself laid on a real free-range farm, but nothing you pick up in Tesco with 'free range' on it is particularly free range. Again, cows used for milk aren't treated very well either unless it's from somebody like Yeo Valley who genuinely do have higher ethical standards.
Oh indeed, but the problem is I have is that I eat out virtually every day and I'm picky to the point of it being almost an an eating disorder.
No such thing as a vegetarian donner kebab and chips, or a (good) veggie McDonalds, Subway, KFC etc.
If I became veggie I'd probably end up living off cereal, pasta pots and cheesy chips.
The one option at McDonalds and Burger King are good enough. I don't have problems when I go to those places. I steer clear of Subway and KFC though.
I have a lot of deep respect for vegetarians but particularly vegans.
Fundamentally, using animals for meat or to make byproducts such as milk/eggs doesn't strike me as being very 'right' morally speaking given the industrial nature of these processes.
It's not so bad if you got eggs handpicked yourself laid on a real free-range farm, but nothing you pick up in Tesco with 'free range' on it is particularly free range. Again, cows used for milk aren't treated very well either unless it's from somebody like Yeo Valley who genuinely do have higher ethical standards.
Each to their own I actually look down on people who think they are superior to others based on their lifestyle decisions.
Each to their own I actually look down on people who think they are superior to others based on their lifestyle decisions.
You've royally missed my point. I don't 'look down' on people who aren't vegetarians/vegans, as I'm a meat eater myself.
I just particularly admire vegans and vegetarians for their progressive and enlightened stance - as well as the fact many must have impeccable self control, it has nothing to do with looking down on others at all.
It's amusingly illustrative that you turned such a positive into a negative.
Vegetarianism IMO is a very loose term and people adjust it to suit their own thinking and agendas. I still think being a vegan is the way forward in order to avoid animal products altogether. If you simply don't like the taste of red meat (beef, pork, lamb etc.) or the taste of white meat (chicken, turkey etc.), just say so instead of couching it up as vegetarianism, as in making a statement or it being a badge of honour.
Thing is, it doesn't need to be a "badge of honour". It doesn't need to be for ethical reasons. Even people who just don't like the taste of meat get to call themselves vegetarians, and they still get to look for the little "v" on a restaurant menu BECAUSE IT'S PRACTICAL.
OK- rest of this post not specifically aimed at you, but a more general point.
As I say, people choose their own diets, and draw their own ethical lines, based on whatever they want to.
Sure, calling yourself a "vegetarian who eats fish" is bullshit, and that's why we have the word "pescatarian".
To say (as some do) that there's no point being not eating meat if you wear leather, or no point being a vegetarian if you're not a vegan, or whatever, is ignoring the point that we all by necessity compromise our principles every day. By that logic, there's no point recycling if you use a computer with non-recycleable parts. There's no point getting a low-emission car if you get a car at all. There's no point opposing human rights abuses if you buy pretty much anything at all that contributes to the system that makes them profitable. Bollocks.
Of COURSE there's a point. Otherwise we may as well all give up having any kind of principles at all, because you can bet yer bum we're gonna compromise them at some point.
You've royally missed my point. I don't 'look down' on people who aren't vegetarians/vegans, as I'm a meat eater myself.
I just particularly admire vegans and vegetarians for their progressive and enlightened stance - as well as the fact many must have impeccable self control, it has nothing to do with looking down on others at all.
It's amusingly illustrative that you turned such a positive into a negative.
I didn't say you did, you've just taken it personally. I was speaking hypothetically. I look down on people who think they are superior to others based on a lifestyle choice.
You think a vegan is enlightened and progressive because they won't eat a free range egg, it's not an opinion I share.
A minor point, but it isn't that fruit (or anything else) evolved "in order" to do anything. Evolution doesn't fulfil a need. Both tasty and non-tasty fruit would have occurred but the non-tasty fruit hindered reproduction and died out, whereas the tasty fruit aided reproduction and survived.
Yes. That is evolution.
Of course evolution fulfils a need. That is what evolution is all about. That's why we as humans stand on two legs not walk on all fours and have opposing thumbs, as those were both useful developments. Otherwise we'd be behaving like other monkeys and still living in caves. Evolution meant we developed hand tools, harnessed controlled fire, have highly developed mental capacity and later on developed various other technology and is why I am able to be typing this at you.
4-5 billion years ago, life on planet Earth all started off as recycled star dust. The vast majority of life forms that have ever existed on Earth are now extinct. That's evolution in the main. Survival of the fittest in other words. Of course you get the odd catastrophic event, e.g. what put paid to the dinosaurs thrown into the mix.
The entire reason apples (and other fruit) exist is because they hold the seeds, which need to be carried away from the plant in order to spread and grow and fruit has evolved to be tasty to a range of animals in order to entice them to eat it. The seeds are protected to survive the digestive systems of animals so that they pass through and where the animal defecates, the seeds will lie and hopefully grow. Fruit is made of several things, such as sugar and water which are biologically costly for the plant to create, but it is worth it in evolutionary terms for their genes to carry on and make new plants.
As for the original argument, I am an ex-vegetarian and I don't really understand pescetarianism. I do if it's for taste or health reasons but I can't see a moral reason for it. Having said that, I've never heard anyone give a moral reason for it, so perhaps most just do it for other reasons. I don't judge other people for choosing to do it though, mostly because I've never really met any.
I do agree that vegetarians who choose not to eat meat for moral reasons should really choose their animal products from ethical sources - so no battery eggs etc. One thing that many people don't realise is quite unethical in this sense is milk - someone recently opened my eyes to the milk industry and it is very difficult to get milk which has been taken from cows who are treated completely humanely.
In what ways are they treated inhumanely? I know quite a bit about the dairy industry and those cows are treated better than many humans!
I am a Vegan and have been for about 5 years. Before that I was a Vegetarian. I don't care what other people eat and wouldn't dream of telling them not to eat certain things. What does irritate me though is pescatarians saying they are vegetarians. This has caused a certain confusion among some people who now appear to think that a vegetarian eats no meat but eats fish and a vegan is someone who doesn't eat meat or fish.
My 12 year old has now become a vegetarian. I became one about her age and haven't ever tried to influence my family in any dietary direction. However, I am never ill and never even get colds so my diet must be healthy.
Okay - I'll bite. Just show me one bit of credible information to support that bit of made up nonsense.
Good grief.. you make it sound like this is some sort of wild and controversial theory.
This article on Wiki cites a number of studies which have confirmed that fish feel pain by any reasonable definition.
Fish are obviously conscious creatures with a central nervous system. It's peculiar to me, that that people can treat them as different to cows, sheep or chicken based on an entirely socially arbitrary rule - they are living, breathing, conscious animals. 'Fish' as a term is negatively defined - so there are many types of fish, and some species quite easily demonstrate signs of intelligence.
There is a brief Wiki article on Fish Intelligence.
Of course evolution fulfils a need. That is what evolution is all about. That's why we as humans stand on two legs not walk on all fours and have opposing thumbs, as those were both useful developments. Otherwise we'd be behaving like other monkeys and still living in caves. Evolution meant we developed hand tools, harnessed controlled fire, have highly developed mental capacity and later on developed various other technology and is why I am able to be typing this at you.
4-5 billion years ago, life on planet Earth all started off as recycled star dust. The vast majority of life forms that have ever existed on Earth are now extinct. That's evolution in the main. Survival of the fittest in other words. Of course you get the odd catastrophic event, e.g. what put paid to the dinosaurs thrown into the mix.
Nothing evolves in order to fulfil a need or requirement, is the point I was making. Evolution is blind, it is not directed. Apples didn't develop taste so that animals would eat them; they blindly developed taste by chance, and this happened to make them desirable to animals, and this happened to aid their reproduction, thus tasty fruit becomes the norm.
I've no idea why you're trying to tell me about how life on planet earth began and developed. Don't forget, I was here.
I am a Vegan and have been for about 5 years. Before that I was a Vegetarian. I don't care what other people eat and wouldn't dream of telling them not to eat certain things. What does irritate me though is pescatarians saying they are vegetarians. This has caused a certain confusion among some people who now appear to think that a vegetarian eats no meat but eats fish and a vegan is someone who doesn't eat meat or fish.
My 12 year old has now become a vegetarian. I became one about her age and haven't ever tried to influence my family in any dietary direction. However, I am never ill and never even get colds so my diet must be healthy.
I don't eat meat but I eat fish and other seafood. I have never called myself a vegetarian but I am shocked by the amount of people who, when I say I don't eat meat but I do eat fish, say to me 'so you're a vegetarian then?'
I've said to people before that, no I'm not a vegetarian because I do eat fish and seafood and been told that I am still one because 'most' vegetarians eat fish and chicken. - This isn't a one off either and seems to be quite a widely held belief
In what ways are they treated inhumanely? I know quite a bit about the dairy industry and those cows are treated better than many humans!
It is fascinating to watch the cows in one of those automated rotary milking parlours. I had no idea such a thing existed until fairly recently. Very very interesting to watch the whole process.
I don't know much about these things but the cows all looked very relaxed about it.
Mastitis is the inflammation of the mammary gland and udder tissue, and is a major endemic disease of dairy cattle. It usually occurs as an immune response to bacterial invasion of the teat canal by variety of bacterial sources present on the farm, and can also occur as a result of chemical, mechanical, or thermal injury to the cow's udder.
Milk-secreting tissues and various ducts throughout the udder can be damaged by bacterial toxins, and sometimes permanent damage to the udder occurs. Severe acute cases can be fatal, but even in cows that recover there may be consequences for the rest of the lactation and subsequent lactations.
The illness is in most respects a very complex disease, affected by a variety of factors: it can be present in a herd subclinically, where few, if any, symptoms are present in most cows. Practices such as close attention to milking hygiene, the culling of chronically-infected cows, good housing management and effective dairy cattle nutrition to promote good cow health are essential in helping to control herd mastitis levels.
Mastitis is most often transmitted by contact with the milking machine, and through contaminated hands or other materials, in housing, bedding and other equipment. During the 1960s, a five-point plan was devised by the National Institute for Research into Dairying, aimed at providing a strategy for the reduction and control of mastitis at farm level, which in adapted form is still followed today.
Mastitis treatment and control is one of the largest costs to the dairy industry in the UK, and is also a significant factor in dairy cow welfare.
I don't eat meat but I eat fish and other seafood. I have never called myself a vegetarian but I am shocked by the amount of people who, when I say I don't eat meat but I do eat fish, say to me 'so you're a vegetarian then?'
I've said to people before that, no I'm not a vegetarian because I do eat fish and seafood and been told that I am still one because 'most' vegetarians eat fish and chicken. - This isn't a one off either and seems to be quite a widely held belief
I've found this as well. The conversation usually goes: "I don't eat meat",
"Oh so you're a Veggie then?"
"Well, sort of. I'm pretty much a Vegetarian, I only eat chicken and fish sometimes"
"So you're not a Veggie then?"
"Sometimes it's just hard to avoid meat"
I don't eat meat but I eat fish and other seafood. I have never called myself a vegetarian but I am shocked by the amount of people who, when I say I don't eat meat but I do eat fish, say to me 'so you're a vegetarian then?'
I've said to people before that, no I'm not a vegetarian because I do eat fish and seafood and been told that I am still one because 'most' vegetarians eat fish and chicken. - This isn't a one off either and seems to be quite a widely held belief
Yes, I agree this seems to be a widely held belief, rubbish though it is. I usually have to tell people what a vegan is because most people that I meet that don't know me, don't know what a vegan is. I have to tell them and then they nearly always say---what do you eat then?
This is mostly because of pescatarians telling people they are vegetarians because they don't know the correct term. I have met people who tell me they are a vegetarian and they eat fish and then I say--- so you're a pescatarian then? They have never heard the word before.
I've found this as well. The conversation usually goes: "I don't eat meat",
"Oh so you're a Veggie then?"
"Well, sort of. I'm pretty much a Vegetarian, I only eat chicken and fish sometimes"
"So you're not a Veggie then?"
"Sometimes it's just hard to avoid meat"
I have successfully avoided meat since I was 12, so it can't be that hard to do if I can do it.
I don't eat meat but I eat fish and other seafood. I have never called myself a vegetarian but I am shocked by the amount of people who, when I say I don't eat meat but I do eat fish, say to me 'so you're a vegetarian then?'
I've said to people before that, no I'm not a vegetarian because I do eat fish and seafood and been told that I am still one because 'most' vegetarians eat fish and chicken. - This isn't a one off either and seems to be quite a widely held belief
I've come across that too over the years. I've been offered fish as a vegetarian substitute, only to have the person in question raise their eyebrows when I've declined, and they've asked; "Are you SURE you don't eat fish ?".
Granted, that was some time back and things have changed since. Though there does seem to still be that strange, lingering belief amongst some people that vegetarians eat fish.
Comments
I think they do.
I have a lot of deep respect for vegetarians but particularly vegans.
Fundamentally, using animals for meat or to make byproducts such as milk/eggs doesn't strike me as being very 'right' morally speaking given the industrial nature of these processes.
It's not so bad if you got eggs handpicked yourself laid on a real free-range farm, but nothing you pick up in Tesco with 'free range' on it is particularly free range. Again, cows used for milk aren't treated very well either unless it's from somebody like Yeo Valley who genuinely do have higher ethical standards.
The one option at McDonalds and Burger King are good enough. I don't have problems when I go to those places. I steer clear of Subway and KFC though.
Each to their own
Don't you take that tone with me Cricket.
You've royally missed my point. I don't 'look down' on people who aren't vegetarians/vegans, as I'm a meat eater myself.
I just particularly admire vegans and vegetarians for their progressive and enlightened stance - as well as the fact many must have impeccable self control, it has nothing to do with looking down on others at all.
It's amusingly illustrative that you turned such a positive into a negative.
Thing is, it doesn't need to be a "badge of honour". It doesn't need to be for ethical reasons. Even people who just don't like the taste of meat get to call themselves vegetarians, and they still get to look for the little "v" on a restaurant menu BECAUSE IT'S PRACTICAL.
OK- rest of this post not specifically aimed at you, but a more general point.
As I say, people choose their own diets, and draw their own ethical lines, based on whatever they want to.
Sure, calling yourself a "vegetarian who eats fish" is bullshit, and that's why we have the word "pescatarian".
To say (as some do) that there's no point being not eating meat if you wear leather, or no point being a vegetarian if you're not a vegan, or whatever, is ignoring the point that we all by necessity compromise our principles every day. By that logic, there's no point recycling if you use a computer with non-recycleable parts. There's no point getting a low-emission car if you get a car at all. There's no point opposing human rights abuses if you buy pretty much anything at all that contributes to the system that makes them profitable. Bollocks.
Of COURSE there's a point. Otherwise we may as well all give up having any kind of principles at all, because you can bet yer bum we're gonna compromise them at some point.
It's like Jello Biafra said- "Where do you draw the line? I'm not telling you, I'm asking you".
I didn't say you did, you've just taken it personally. I was speaking hypothetically. I look down on people who think they are superior to others based on a lifestyle choice.
You think a vegan is enlightened and progressive because they won't eat a free range egg, it's not an opinion I share.
Yes. That is evolution.
Of course evolution fulfils a need. That is what evolution is all about. That's why we as humans stand on two legs not walk on all fours and have opposing thumbs, as those were both useful developments. Otherwise we'd be behaving like other monkeys and still living in caves. Evolution meant we developed hand tools, harnessed controlled fire, have highly developed mental capacity and later on developed various other technology and is why I am able to be typing this at you.
4-5 billion years ago, life on planet Earth all started off as recycled star dust. The vast majority of life forms that have ever existed on Earth are now extinct. That's evolution in the main. Survival of the fittest in other words. Of course you get the odd catastrophic event, e.g. what put paid to the dinosaurs thrown into the mix.
My 12 year old has now become a vegetarian. I became one about her age and haven't ever tried to influence my family in any dietary direction. However, I am never ill and never even get colds so my diet must be healthy.
Good grief.. you make it sound like this is some sort of wild and controversial theory.
This article on Wiki cites a number of studies which have confirmed that fish feel pain by any reasonable definition.
Fish are obviously conscious creatures with a central nervous system. It's peculiar to me, that that people can treat them as different to cows, sheep or chicken based on an entirely socially arbitrary rule - they are living, breathing, conscious animals. 'Fish' as a term is negatively defined - so there are many types of fish, and some species quite easily demonstrate signs of intelligence.
There is a brief Wiki article on Fish Intelligence.
Nothing evolves in order to fulfil a need or requirement, is the point I was making. Evolution is blind, it is not directed. Apples didn't develop taste so that animals would eat them; they blindly developed taste by chance, and this happened to make them desirable to animals, and this happened to aid their reproduction, thus tasty fruit becomes the norm.
I've no idea why you're trying to tell me about how life on planet earth began and developed. Don't forget, I was here.
I don't eat meat but I eat fish and other seafood. I have never called myself a vegetarian but I am shocked by the amount of people who, when I say I don't eat meat but I do eat fish, say to me 'so you're a vegetarian then?'
I've said to people before that, no I'm not a vegetarian because I do eat fish and seafood and been told that I am still one because 'most' vegetarians eat fish and chicken. - This isn't a one off either and seems to be quite a widely held belief
It is fascinating to watch the cows in one of those automated rotary milking parlours. I had no idea such a thing existed until fairly recently. Very very interesting to watch the whole process.
I don't know much about these things but the cows all looked very relaxed about it.
and at present, a lot of male calves are killed, after cows are impregnated to increase milk yields, as they aren't wanted.
I've found this as well. The conversation usually goes: "I don't eat meat",
"Oh so you're a Veggie then?"
"Well, sort of. I'm pretty much a Vegetarian, I only eat chicken and fish sometimes"
"So you're not a Veggie then?"
"Sometimes it's just hard to avoid meat"
Yes, I agree this seems to be a widely held belief, rubbish though it is. I usually have to tell people what a vegan is because most people that I meet that don't know me, don't know what a vegan is. I have to tell them and then they nearly always say---what do you eat then?
This is mostly because of pescatarians telling people they are vegetarians because they don't know the correct term. I have met people who tell me they are a vegetarian and they eat fish and then I say--- so you're a pescatarian then? They have never heard the word before.
I have successfully avoided meat since I was 12, so it can't be that hard to do if I can do it.
I've come across that too over the years. I've been offered fish as a vegetarian substitute, only to have the person in question raise their eyebrows when I've declined, and they've asked; "Are you SURE you don't eat fish ?".
Granted, that was some time back and things have changed since. Though there does seem to still be that strange, lingering belief amongst some people that vegetarians eat fish.
It's very easy in this day and age but I've talked to people who say it's hard. What it really means is they just give in to temptation.