Options
Army Of Ghosts/Doomsday
daveyboy7472
Posts: 16,421 Forum Member
✭✭
For all sorts of reasons, this 2-Parter for me is the best New Who Story ever with Doomsday being the best episode and imo this is how a finale should be, it really lives up to the Series Finale's I'd come accustomed to from watching Buffy and other Series.
There is just such a wide range of emotions experienced from watching the story. Surprises, humour, sentiment, tension, drama, excitement, emotion, you name it, it was probably in there.
With Army Of Ghosts, the main enjoyment of the episode in hindsight is how it gradual builds up from just a simple visit home for Rose to visit Jackie to a blockbuster of a cliffhanger. Straight away we are introduced to the story with what is apparently Rose's dead Grandfather come to visit in Ghost Form, but this soon rouses The Doctor's suspicions as he sets about trying to find the source point of the ghosts. What I love here is that during all this Jackie addresses her concerns to Rose about her future with The Doctor, which Rose tries to fob off. However, the action soon takes precedence again as The Doctor travels to Torchwood. Here all the strands from earlier in the Series come together as we learn exactly what Queen Victoria has done in creating Torchwood. (Love the use of the theme from Torchwood in the incidental music as well). Here we are introduced to the very sexy Yvonne Hartman and a sneak peak to the next series with Freema Agyeman as one of the workers. (Which she played quite well, I thought)
I simply loved Jackie pretending to be Rose with The Doctor mocking her at every opportunity. I also loved the scene where The Doctor stares Yvonne out as she is about to carry out the latest Ghost Shift and she eventually succumbs to his way of thinking.
The rest of the episode just cranks up the tension. The Cybermen are gradually introduced as the ghosts are revealed to be them plus Mickey returns and the Sphere starts to activate. I just love the way Mickey is given dialogue to deflect from the true occupants of the Sphere by speculating it could be a Cyber Controller etc. RTD then pulls of the same trick as Parting Of the Ways by having The Cybermen declare the Sphere is not their design(As with the Dalek emperor declaring he knows nothing about Bad Wolf)
Cue for me one of the best surprise cliffhangers ever. Though I'd read months before the Daleks and The Cybermen might appear together it is something I didn't think would happen and here they are. Even watching this yesterday, that cliffhanger stills gives me chills. It was simply superb. As a Classic Series Fan it was something I always wanted to happen and here it was!
Just when I thought it couldn't get any better we had Doomsday. The first meeting of the Daleks and The Cybermen was brilliantly done as was the resulting battle, the mystery over the Genesis arc and it's revelation. The trips between the parallel worlds and the reintroduction of Jake and Pete were another surprise. Pete meeting Jackie in the corridor, just simply an emotional moment for Rose and a great scene. Yvonne Hartman getting converted into a Cyberman and still managing to serve Queen and Country by being on the good side.
The action sequences, they were superbly directed again by Graeme Harper. The Cybermen Theme , one of my favourites and really backed up the action. The pace was fantastic, just as a finale should be.
Finally, we had the resolution of The Doctor sucking all the Daleks and Cybermen into the void, losing Rose in the process. Again these scenes as Rose struggles to hold on and finally lets go as she is sucked into the void are amazing. This is followed by Rose's departure theme which I love and these scenes are again quite emotional as they are forced apart. But RTD doesn't let it go there and soon we end up in the overused location(not at that time though) that is Bad Wolf bay. Here RTD really puts the viewer through the wringer by having an emotional good bye. Yes it was overly sentimental but it wasn't exactly as if Rose had been telling The Doctor she loved him all Series. It had always been unsaid and it was just implied by her reactions to different situations. Now she had one last chance to say it and she did, and then RTD pulls of the ultimate by having The Doctor disappear before he has chance to reply back to her. It really was a heart wrencher, it even had my stone cold ex in tears and for me, Amy and Rory's departure wasn't a patch on this.
Then before we even had chance to recover, Catherine Tate suddenly turns up in the TARDIS in readiness for the Xmas Special. Not sure if this worked so quickly after Rose's goodbye, it did seem a bit sudden.
I just loved the way this final setup of Jackie, Pete, Mickey and Rose all together again had been setup all through the Series. It was an amazing piece of writing and as I said the other day, how a writer who does something as good as this can come up with crap like Love And Monsters is a mystery.
Any quibbles I have about this two-parter are few. Mickey I didn't really see the point of him being there, he was just there for the sake of the final resolution. Not sure how Pete knew how to turn up when Rose was about to be sucked into the void and off course the major gripe is that The Cybermen didn't put up much of a fight against the Daleks and had their asses seriously kicked. Aside from one scene where they attack the Daleks they were pretty useless overall against them.
However, these negatives are far outweighed by the positives. Only Stolen Earth/Journey's End came anywhere close to being as good as this finale. It was a fantastic conclusion to what was for me a fantastic series(2 awful episodes aside) 8 superb episodes out of a possible 13, that's why it's my favourite and this Finale just finishes it off in style.
There is just such a wide range of emotions experienced from watching the story. Surprises, humour, sentiment, tension, drama, excitement, emotion, you name it, it was probably in there.
With Army Of Ghosts, the main enjoyment of the episode in hindsight is how it gradual builds up from just a simple visit home for Rose to visit Jackie to a blockbuster of a cliffhanger. Straight away we are introduced to the story with what is apparently Rose's dead Grandfather come to visit in Ghost Form, but this soon rouses The Doctor's suspicions as he sets about trying to find the source point of the ghosts. What I love here is that during all this Jackie addresses her concerns to Rose about her future with The Doctor, which Rose tries to fob off. However, the action soon takes precedence again as The Doctor travels to Torchwood. Here all the strands from earlier in the Series come together as we learn exactly what Queen Victoria has done in creating Torchwood. (Love the use of the theme from Torchwood in the incidental music as well). Here we are introduced to the very sexy Yvonne Hartman and a sneak peak to the next series with Freema Agyeman as one of the workers. (Which she played quite well, I thought)
I simply loved Jackie pretending to be Rose with The Doctor mocking her at every opportunity. I also loved the scene where The Doctor stares Yvonne out as she is about to carry out the latest Ghost Shift and she eventually succumbs to his way of thinking.
The rest of the episode just cranks up the tension. The Cybermen are gradually introduced as the ghosts are revealed to be them plus Mickey returns and the Sphere starts to activate. I just love the way Mickey is given dialogue to deflect from the true occupants of the Sphere by speculating it could be a Cyber Controller etc. RTD then pulls of the same trick as Parting Of the Ways by having The Cybermen declare the Sphere is not their design(As with the Dalek emperor declaring he knows nothing about Bad Wolf)
Cue for me one of the best surprise cliffhangers ever. Though I'd read months before the Daleks and The Cybermen might appear together it is something I didn't think would happen and here they are. Even watching this yesterday, that cliffhanger stills gives me chills. It was simply superb. As a Classic Series Fan it was something I always wanted to happen and here it was!
Just when I thought it couldn't get any better we had Doomsday. The first meeting of the Daleks and The Cybermen was brilliantly done as was the resulting battle, the mystery over the Genesis arc and it's revelation. The trips between the parallel worlds and the reintroduction of Jake and Pete were another surprise. Pete meeting Jackie in the corridor, just simply an emotional moment for Rose and a great scene. Yvonne Hartman getting converted into a Cyberman and still managing to serve Queen and Country by being on the good side.
The action sequences, they were superbly directed again by Graeme Harper. The Cybermen Theme , one of my favourites and really backed up the action. The pace was fantastic, just as a finale should be.
Finally, we had the resolution of The Doctor sucking all the Daleks and Cybermen into the void, losing Rose in the process. Again these scenes as Rose struggles to hold on and finally lets go as she is sucked into the void are amazing. This is followed by Rose's departure theme which I love and these scenes are again quite emotional as they are forced apart. But RTD doesn't let it go there and soon we end up in the overused location(not at that time though) that is Bad Wolf bay. Here RTD really puts the viewer through the wringer by having an emotional good bye. Yes it was overly sentimental but it wasn't exactly as if Rose had been telling The Doctor she loved him all Series. It had always been unsaid and it was just implied by her reactions to different situations. Now she had one last chance to say it and she did, and then RTD pulls of the ultimate by having The Doctor disappear before he has chance to reply back to her. It really was a heart wrencher, it even had my stone cold ex in tears and for me, Amy and Rory's departure wasn't a patch on this.
Then before we even had chance to recover, Catherine Tate suddenly turns up in the TARDIS in readiness for the Xmas Special. Not sure if this worked so quickly after Rose's goodbye, it did seem a bit sudden.
I just loved the way this final setup of Jackie, Pete, Mickey and Rose all together again had been setup all through the Series. It was an amazing piece of writing and as I said the other day, how a writer who does something as good as this can come up with crap like Love And Monsters is a mystery.
Any quibbles I have about this two-parter are few. Mickey I didn't really see the point of him being there, he was just there for the sake of the final resolution. Not sure how Pete knew how to turn up when Rose was about to be sucked into the void and off course the major gripe is that The Cybermen didn't put up much of a fight against the Daleks and had their asses seriously kicked. Aside from one scene where they attack the Daleks they were pretty useless overall against them.
However, these negatives are far outweighed by the positives. Only Stolen Earth/Journey's End came anywhere close to being as good as this finale. It was a fantastic conclusion to what was for me a fantastic series(2 awful episodes aside) 8 superb episodes out of a possible 13, that's why it's my favourite and this Finale just finishes it off in style.
0
Comments
These episodes had everything I want in DW - pacy, funny, sad, romantic, an amazing cliffhanger.
I loved the humour in it - the exchange between the Daleks and the Cybermen was priceless, especially with Mickey's aside "Stephen Hawkins meets the speaking clock".
I liked the way it was action packed (a lot of running; I know I've said this before, but watching the Tenth Doctor running was infinitely pleasurable for me
I liked the inclusion of Mickey. It showed how far he'd come since our first meeting with him.
The ending was heartbreaking, (I thought the Ponds' departure was equally sad, but then I've got a thing for Rory
I know a lot of people didn't like the Doctor being so sad and lovelorn, but for me it added another dimension to his character. I loved the last scene, with the Doctor in tears, and then the sudden appearance of Donna jolting him back to the present.
As I type, I'm remembering all the little scenes which were so good "A million Cybermen? No problem. One Doctor? Now you're scared!"
Absolutely wonderful, from start to finish.:)
Now I'm not someone who normally lets a few plot issues ruin my enjoyment but those mentioned above to me makes Rose depeature seem so unnecessary and almost like the Doctor wanted her to **** off, which is clealry not what I'm meant to be thinking!
The first episode builds well to what is one of the programmes finest cliffhangers (shame I had it spoiled in the trailer at the end of Fear Her). Mickey comes full circle and it's good to see how his character has developed. At the time I personally would have had him save Rose rather than Pete - but respectively Mickey not saving her makes more sense with what happened later.
I loved the bitch off between the Daleks and the Cybermen...
The banter as The Doctor tries to pass off Jackie as Rose was fantastic. And her ending up with the alt-universe Pete was a great way to end her character's arc.
Only thing that got me is I'm not sure about how the ghost Cybermen managed to convince people they where long lost relatives. - this is a minor quibble.
Donna turning up right at the end was a mistake and took away the dramatic impact of the last scenes (thankfully they didn't do this with Journey's End).
And yes Yvonne Hartman was very very hot!
:eek:Are you disagreeing with me Granny?!;):D
Seriously though, I know you like the Impossible Planet 2-Parter but it didn't work for me and New Earth I thought was okay but not as good as the episodes that followed. With Love And Monsters/Fear Her as well, they were the 5 episodes I thought weren't as good as the rest.
One thing I forgot to mention(as usual:rolleyes:) is that this is exactly the sort of Finale that Tennant should have had as his swansong. Had he decided to do an Eccleston and quit after one year it would have been an excellent story to go out on, even without Rose's departure at the end. It's a shame The End Of Time lacked the excitement and pace of this story and indeed of all the other Finales before that point.
Also agree the Jackie/Pete scene was a nice break from the episode that didn't disrupt it too much and that line from Mickey was a good one. Adding that Missus and the Ex line from School Reunion, Mickey certainly had some great dialogue on his time in the show!
However, though, admittedly, I've written a lot, my critiicisms of this story dont outweigh the good points and overall, it's a really enjoyable story, and the 10th Doctor at his best. The Dalek reveal is just superb. I always knew the Cybermen would be returning for the finale (though their return, with the Doctor and Yvonnes discovery of them, and all the Ghosts turning into Cybermen, was done brilliantly) but I never expected the Daleks to turn up and was flabbergasted when they did. Really shocking, and the slow reveal, with everyone wondering what was inside the sphere. I must admit, at the close of Army of Ghosts, I did think Doomsday might be a bit shit as I was worried that Daleks vs. Cybermen might end up a bit like Alien vs. Predator, just the 2 monsters going up against each other for no real reason. But Doomsday is brilliant and the Dalek vs. Cybermen scenes are Amazing. I didnt think you could get much more epic than in Parting of the Ways at the time, seems I was wrong. The genesis Arc is really clever as well, I never expected millions of Daleks to be flying out (though doesent that kinda **** up continuity? If you had a Dalek invasion of Earth in 2007, then hhow come no one knows what a Dalek is in 2012 in the story "Dalek?" Does that even happen now? It really is Doomsday this story, war has arrived and you really feel like it's the end of the Earth, and no one will be able to stop it.
Of course the Doctor does stop it (though again we have another moment where we must suspend our disbeleif (all those Daleks and Cybermen etc flying through just that ONE OFFICE WINDOW??!)) but at the cost of Rose. Now Rose was never my favourite companion (that honour must go to Amy/Rory) and at times she was a bit of a bitch (much much prefer Martha) and all her "romance" scenes with the Doctor bloody irritated me (just cos, at the time, I thouht thats not what the Doctor should be like, really cringed at that last "I love you" from Rose) but I do still think those last scenes are bloody good writing from RTD (though the guy who really makes/steals this scene is Murray Gold), even if, like with almost all companions departures except for a few e.g. Martha's (or Peri's which is more shocking than sad), it does try a little hard to be sad and get us all crying. Oh, and another problem with this episode (I'm finding lots pf problems arent I, I started off saying I liked it!!) is that, like with Donna, I cant help but feel Rose's departure is a bit of a cop out. Again we have RTD being to excited. Time and time again, throughout the entire story, we're told she's going to die, she'll die, she's going to die, she's about to die, she'll die... And then she doesent. Yes, yes I know, she's on the official list of the dead, and her life with the Doctor's over. But she's not dead really is she? Not really. And to worsen matters, they then bring her back in series 4! I fyou aske me that was a real mistake. RTD said himself why, then conveniently forgot. Originally the BBC was considering a spin off about Rose in the parallell world, but RTD said no, as it would take away the sense that that was it, it was over, she was stuck on another Earth and we cant see her again. We shouldnt. The point of the companion is their gone, we cant see them again. So the spin off was ditched, but THEN, 2 years later, RTD eats his own words, ruins that, ruins the good ending for Rose, and brings her back! :mad:
All in all, it is an enjoyable episode, but mainly cos of the epicness that is the Daleks and the Cybermen. However there are lots of problems with it and, while I loved it on first viewing (which is why I still do enjoy it now), I dont think it's really that good, and really think it's a bit far to kill it the best story ever. In my opinion theres lots far better, it's not even the best series finale...
Donna's good in this though. I dont think her scene is really to sudden etc, the whole point is to have made us cry, but then to make us laugh again, like with Parting of the Ways to remind us the story does go on
The thing is (and I'm not trying to chastise RTD for not being perfect, and I doubt I could do a much better job), but surely, for a really good plot, you shouldnt need to put drama+emotion etc before logic and a plot thqt makes sense, surely, in the best stories, their both their. It's a big criticism of the big series finales these days. Not only this, but The Stolen Earth/Journeys End, The End of Time and The Wedding of Rier Song, all have massive epicness, there all really good character dirven dramatic stories, but there'll be lots of stuff where the plot isnt so good. It shouldnt need to be like that, you can have both, a really good, thought through plot and good, relateable characters with epic moments. Take, for example, my favourite series finale, the Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang, that has all the epicness of every single monster ever, the TARDIS exploding, the end of the universe, but at the same time, we have all the little stuff which had been driving all series 5, the girln who waited deciding between the Doctor and Rory etc. It was the same for RTD's better finales, Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways, or Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords. We had all the little emotional stuff like Rose saving the Doctor, or the Doctor/Master relationship and Martha finding independence, yet at the same time, we have massive armies of Daleks flying through space, the last battle of the time war, the year that never was. The plot should be strong cos the characters are part of the plot and if the plots strong, then they should be strong to...
Edit: Just a mention of series 2 as a whole, pretty dire single parters but I enjoyed all the two-parters, and this was the highlight by a very large margin.
Explained in Series 4 where we learn the Torchwood of Pete's World have the ability to view other dimensions.
It's fairly clear Jackie would have wanted to go back for Rose so Pete tells her he can show her that Rose is fine. Of course when they tune the Device in they see Rose about to be sucked into the Void so Pete goes and rescues her.
I agree, never bettered.
The build up is superb, but hey what a adrenaline thumping cliffhanger, at the point of hopelessness as the Cybermen swarm all over the Earth. The void sphere spills out the Daleks bang on top of it. Epic. I agree a bit of a fantasy for Classic era fans.
The dialogue and the way the Daleks and Cybermen react to each other is fascinating. The Cybermen see the Daleks as a powerful way of upgrading the universe. While the Daleks see the Cybermen as unimportant to their current plans.
Love the Genesis arc part of the plot. When Mickey asks why the Timelords built that, and the Doctor realises it is a prison ship still gives me a tingle when I watch that bit, Daleks spewing out into the London skyline.
The whole void and lever thing and Rose getting sucked nearly into it is awesome.
Overall, I love this story and I admit to a tear in my eyes (not something I do often) with the end on Bad Wolf Bay, amazingly powerful scenes.
As for series two, I have a fondness of the whole series, but I think I have of the first three series actually. But it only dips for a couple of the episodes, I think it did a lot to take the series forward after the brilliant reintroduction, it was full of quality moments, concepts and stories, and took the character of the Doctor a new one on a lot.
Why wait until Series 4 though? An immediate explanation would have been nice!
I think that first meeting between the Daleks and The Cybermen is amazing. the build upto it is perfect. Both of them have visuals to see what's going on and from the Cyberman perspective, it takes a few moments before the Dalek suddenly glides into view, building the tension. It was amazing stuff.
The only small thing that bugged me about is The Doctor's reaction. You thought he may have been a bit more astonished at seeing The Daleks there together at the same time as the Cybermen but his reaction was very subdued.
You can argue that his subsequent ones suffered a bit from each having to top the previous, but Doomsday remains great.
Lots of action, drama, comedy and tragedy. This would have made a brilliant 90-minute TV Movie!!
Nothing bad to say about this. 10/10
Shame they can't repeat this sort of thing now.
Got to agree with everything here Davey. I love these episodes so much. As you say it builds up gradually and we get some real pleasing fan moments finding out more about Torchwood, seeing the Daleks do their plunger death thing on Dr Singh, Rose's link to the Daleks, All the mysteries are unravelled one by one as the Cybermen are revealed to be the ghosts and then just when you think thats it the cult of Skaro appear from the sphere and the mystery of the genesis ark!
Its all very satisfying as the genesis ark is revealed to be timelord origin and I love the conversation between the Doctor and the Daleks. David Tennant is on top form in this story and its feels like he has really found his Doctor.
The pace is fantastic on the action scenes and bravo to Graeme Harper. Why wont they get him for Moffats episodes ?
I loved the Peter Tyler and Jackie reunion and the scenes of Rose almost being sucked into the void had me holdimg my breath in an OMG moment. . I felt for Rose as the void closed and her heart broke.I have to be honest I think I replayed the last 5 minutes about 20 times at the time.
Regarrding the final scene on the beach I am glad that the Doctor didnt get a chance to say he loved her as I think that would have made him feel too mortal and human. Just implication is enough.
We are so used to companions leaving after seven years but Rose was the first of the Nu Who companions and the Doctor loved her. It felt to me it was a brave move of RTD to seperate them in this way and it seemed so final and sad at the time. Billie deserves like all plaudits for bringing the companion into the 21st century in such a proactive way over 2 years.
One tiny gripe is watching Freema as Martha's cousin in Army of Ghosts she is a bit boring and wooden so i am a little surprised that they choose her as a companion for the following Season. But to be fair to her she did improve in Season 3 as an actress.
My only proviso, it the addition of Catherine Tate right at the end, which totally undercuts everything that has come before - it wasn't needed (thankfully they made a different decision when it was time for Tate to leave).
Just wonderful wide-screen entertainment.
Don't get me wrong; as I say, I like it. It was great to see Mickey back, and so obviously more mature and confident than the Mickey we left in Age of Steel, never mind the buffoon we first met in Rose. The cliffhanger with the Daleks appearing was a real shock. But on the minus side, the Cybermen vs Daleks was a bit of a damp squib, the battle was so one-sided. And I hated some of the stuff in Army of Ghosts with the "ghosts" appearing in EastEnders; I just find these popular culture references tacky and intrusive, and RTD liked them a sight too much.
The one bit of the story that did rise to greatness for me was the ending; the parting of Rose and the Doctor. Both Billie and David played this so well, and the poignant sadness of them being parted forever was really genuinely emotional. (Until RTD pissed all over it in Stolen Earth/Journey's End, but that's another story)
I do love reading your posts, Dave! They are always so against the grain!
What I was going to say was though you're obviously entitled to your opinion, how can you be at a loss as to why others think it's a great story when they've explained their reasons for liking it so much?
As for the culture references, I do and don't agree with you on that. On one hand it's quite amusing seeing all the various TV programmes referenced, the problem was they were overdone, as with all the News Coverage.
You look at The Power Of Three recently, this type of episode was very RTD-esque in nature with all the news reports and Alan Sugar appearing but it wasn't OTT. It was just right and this how RTD should have done it-in small doses. Instead, he had The Doctor flicking through umpteen channels when one or two would have been enough.
I also do agree that Rose's departure is a lot better than Amy & Rory's (I personally thought theirs was a happy ending) as Rose lost the man she loved and Amy & Rory had each other. However, I think Donna's departure was the most tragic out of the lot at least Rose had her memories.
Series 2 was overall, pretty good (with a couple of dud episodes) and it ended in the best way possible.
Then RTD completely ruined it by doing the complete opposite by giving them a teary face-to-face farewell where Rose gets to declare her love. I may not have hated it so much if RTD hadn't ended it so perfectly only moments earlier. It felt like he wasn't convinced people would get a good enough emotional reaction out of the more subtle ending, so added on a "club you about the head with raw emotions until you cry," ending, just in case.
I also really felt like it came across as tacked-on - like it was never a part of the final shooting script, but was hastily added late in the day. Similar to how many people react at the end of "The Return of the King," it seemed the story had already reached its conclusion, but then carried on beyond its obvious finishing point.
And I'm sure Dave said he thought it was good too, so don't everyone go slagging us off for saying this episode was crap. First viewing reaction was amazing, but after I saw it a couple more times there were certain things that just weren't right.
If I was watching this tonight I'd probably turn off after Rose gets zapped to the parallel universe. Yawn. Give me some more plot over wasted screen time (like showing someones face close to tears for 2 minutes straight) any day. Poor Mickey, what must he have been thinking.
The Dalek Cybermen battle was a bit rubbish in the end really. Great build up to it and all, but the actual fight wasn't much. Plus they were all defeated a bit easily. Not quite with the wave of a sonic but not the best solution either. And as others have said, what about all the people on the planet then waking up the next day. Especially the ones hurt or losing relatives in the fighting. Did they just think "what happened again yesterday? Can't remember- oh well must have been a boring day. Wait- how did I loose my arm? What are Fraleks and Kybermeens anyway?". I think the REAL cool sci fi plot is that the human race has been inflicted with some alien disease that means they can't remember stuff. That was a big flaw I think in RTD's time- having the human race get more and more exposed to alien stuff, while continuing to forget anything ever happened, seemingly the very next day. Maybe that's why I liked the finale with the Master better (apart from the Jesus bit although I don't think it's as bad as some people say). There was a plot mechanism there that allowed everyone on the planet to 'forget' and explained everything, while keeping the story intact.
Tracy-Ann Cyberman was alright I thought. Kind of sets up an explainable reason for what happens at the end of Closing Time.
Overall the plot is fairly decent and there are good action scenes, and as I've said it is a very good episode(s). The points I've mentioned are just little niggles in there that come out when you think too much about it