Data published last year shows that the actual incidence of black or Asian people in England and Wales experiencing a stop and search is between 6 - 7 times greater than the incidence of white people undergoing the same experience, not 1000%, - although there are bound to be regional fluctuations.
So I'll ask the obvious question that nobody ever wants to ask.
What proportion of black men in areas where they are being stopped are likely to be carrying a weapon drugs compared to the rest of the population?
Or, what proportion of convicted criminals are black men in comparison to their proportion of men in the general population?
Black men are more likely to come from and live in a poor background. Perhaps if we look at the stats for working class white men compared to middleclass white men and their dealings with the police we would see some telling discrepancies.
Like it or not Police like any other workers will take the path of least resistance to get results. I notice that they are stopping mostly black men and not black women. Perhaps that is because they are a lot less likely to be carrying weapons or drugs. If it was purely down to racism they should be stopping women as much as men surely?
Anybody have a source for these figures?
Having said all that if I was a black lad who was minding my own business and not doing any thing illegal and was constantly getting stopped I would soon get pissed off too.
hmmm.... what are the actual statistics ? plus what are the actual statistics for crime?
as i see it, the police stop and search people who they think are likely to be implicated in a crime (such as carrying a weapon). here they stop chavs...
i guess we are talking about young people here, late teens early 20's... its all well and good twisting the stats to suggest blacks are 'picked on' more then whites... but for it to be accurate, its not a case of black vs white because there millions more white most of which (being old) wont be committing the type of crime young people do.
as a % what % of young black people committ crime compared with the % of young white people.... IF these % match the % of people being stopped.... then theres no problem. its a just %. i guess though we dont have these figures so its all about the ridiculous black vs white per se.
So I'll ask the obvious question that nobody ever wants to ask.
What proportion of black men in areas where they are being stopped are likely to be carrying a weapon drugs compared to the rest of the population?
Or, what proportion of convicted criminals are black men in comparison to their proportion of men in the general population?
Anybody have a source for these figures?
Ministry of justice quarterly figures indicate that the proportion of black/black British individuals who are aged 15yrs+ in the UK population is just over 2%, but constitute over 13% of the current prison population. I'll link this data later, just heading out.
Ministry of justice quarterly figures indicate that the proportion of black/black British individuals who are aged 15yrs+ in the UK population is just over 2%, but constitute over 13% of the current prison population. I'll link this data later, just heading out.
So if those figures are correct, that means that the earlier stats of blacks being 6 to 7 times more likely to be stopped are roughly in line with the MOJ figures.
If that is the case, why isn't it ever pointed out?
So if those figures are correct, that means that the earlier stats of blacks being 6 to 7 times more likely to be stopped are roughly in line with the MOJ figures.
If that is the case, why isn't it ever pointed out?
Because prison stats don't really prove anything- if white criminals are being overlooked then they're not gonna end up in prison in the first place.
If white guys carrying knives, whatever percentage of them there are (and as said above, though it may be smaller it's definitely not zero), are not being stopped, they don't get counted.
It's like Constable Savage on Spitting Image- "Why do you keep arresting this man?" "He's a jailbird, sir!"
I'm black (well, dark brown really) and it's a ****ing nightmare having to face up to the fact that in my experience I'm treated exactly the same as palefaces :::rolls black eyes:::
Said in jest or not, that comment is racially offensive to the indigenous population.
If you want to to know why people of ethnic backgrounds are concerned by the prospect of bad treatment by the police and of institutional racism as a whole, then you should read up on the Stephen Lawrence case.
That old chestnut.
Police have bent over backwards after that and it was 20 years ago.
People need to get over it and look inwards to their "communities". If you tolerate gun, knife crime and gang activity within your ethnic group and it becomes the predominant source of criminality in an area then I expect the police to target suspects.
I do not expect the police to have to work out quotas to randomly "deal" with people of another ethnic background just to appease those who tolerate criminality within their "community".
It seems some people want it both ways and they've had that for long enough.
So if those figures are correct, that means that the earlier stats of blacks being 6 to 7 times more likely to be stopped are roughly in line with the MOJ figures.
If that is the case, why isn't it ever pointed out?
I suspect you would get a clearer picture to the proportion of black people in prison if you combined it with social background.
If 90% of people in prison come from an economically deprived back ground, and 90% of black people come from an economically deprived background, then it stands to reason that the majority of people in prison will be black.
If you broke down the crime stats town by town then you would get a different picture altogether.
Because prison stats don't really prove anything- if white criminals are being overlooked then they're not gonna end up in prison in the first place.
If white guys carrying knives, whatever percentage of them there are (and as said above, though it may be smaller it's definitely not zero), are not being stopped, they don't get counted.
It's like Constable Savage on Spitting Image- "Why do you keep arresting this man?" "He's a jailbird, sir!"
Oh please. Few too many if's there pal.
I see the police dealing with crime all too frequently, they deal with the crime not the criminal.
If there are proportionately more people of a given background in prison it is because they a committing more crime than they represent as a share of the population.
White people represent 87.1% of the population, 67.1% of stop and searches, 79.5% of arrests, 83.9% of cautions, 73.2% of convictions and 70% of cases sentenced to custody.
Black people represent 3.1% of the population, 14.2% of stop and searches, 8.3% of arrests, 7.0% of cautions, 7.5% of convictions and 8.9% of cases sentenced to custody.
This indicates that even though they are stopped more (proportionately) than the white population, they are more likely to be arrested and jailed. Meaning the population is massively over-represented in its criminality.
If this was down to racism, then we would expect similar figures in other ethnic groups...
Asian people represent 6.4% of the population, 10.3% of stop and searches, 5.9% of arrests, 5.2% of cautions, 4.5% of convictions and 5.5% of cases sentenced to custody.
As it turns out, it is only people identified as belonging to the black group which is overrepresented in terms of criminality when it comes to their share of the population.
This tells me -
a). The police are right to target groups in particular areas where crime is high on the basis of ethnic group of the main perpetrators.
b). There is more crime associated with the black "community" than would be expected, all things considered, given their share of the population.
c). That whinging about being stopped and searched is certainly a legitimate complaint for some law abiding people but is a necessary evil based on the evidence.
d). The facts speak for themselves, I'm not going to be swayed by subjective emotional rhetoric.
It's the truth. Some get in because they want to stop the bad guys and others get in simply because they've got an axe to grind.
Just calling it as I see it. I generally don't trust the police and avoid them if I can.
No, its your opinion! You have no information to back that up at all!
I accept that some prejudices can develop AFTER people join but that is almost always as a result of crime.
There are areas, particularly in London, where the majority of crime (mainly street crime) is committed by black people, it is then no wonder some police officers become suspicious of the black community. This in turn develops trust issues on both sides, of course. However, the problems arise when such police officers transfer to another area where the crime statistics aren't as skewed, but they continue to hold these suspicions of black people as a result of their experiences!
I was a police officer in a provincial area where there weren't such areas and as a result I have no prejudice toward black people at all, however, in the specific area I served in, a lot of crime was committed by the Gypsy or Travelling community and I did, while serving there, develop a suspicion of them.
The wording of the question of the thread represents the whole problem in a nutshell……it assumes ALL black people are the same and should be worded 'Do SOME black people……..' because to assume that ALL black people feel the same way about anything is a denial of their individuality and in itself racist I'm afraid.
The only solution to issues with the police is for people to start thinking for themselves and treat the police exactly as they find them…if they have an issue with the police they need to deal with it specifically and individually without generalising or making assumptions about the police service in general….it is no surprise that there will be racist or prejudiced members of any organisation or group of people ( including groups of non white people btw) but you get absolutely nowhere if you don't apply intelligent understanding to that fact and use your own self respect and sense of worth to not becoming a victim of it……..the woe is me herd mentality gets you nowhere.
The wording of the question of the thread represents the whole problem in a nutshell……it assumes ALL black people are the same and should be worded 'Do SOME black people……..' because to assume that ALL black people feel the same way about anything is a denial of their individuality and in itself racist I'm afraid.
The only solution to issues with the police is for people to start thinking for themselves and treat the police exactly as they find them…if they have an issue with the police they need to deal with it specifically and individually without generalising or making assumptions about the police service in general….it is no surprise that there will be racist or prejudiced members of any organisation or group of people ( including groups of non white people btw) but you get absolutely nowhere if you don't apply intelligent understanding to that fact and use your own self respect and sense of worth to not becoming a victim of it……..the woe is me herd mentality gets you nowhere.
No idea. But I don't think all the Police are racist. Of course some officers will be, but the way some people speak you'd think it was a job requirement for all coppers to be racist.
In my experience as a black police officer I think there are big issues with the relationship between the black community and the police.
I have arrested around 5 black people in my ten years as an officer. Each time I've been accused of being racist, only arresting them because they are black, not being a real black man etc.
I've witnessed colleagues arrest black people, legitimately, and the offender accuse them of racism.
I think some communities see the police as racist and oppressive in all circumstances. I think the Duggan situation highlights that.
I've heard a lot of people refer to Duggans death as proof of Police racism, yet no-one even knows the race of the officer who shot him.
I'm white myself.I don't understand why black people seem to always be on the news,slagging off the Police.
I've alaways had the highest regard for the Police.They've never given me any hassle.
Am i missing something?.What do you think?.
I think black males have legitimate reason to be somewhat weary of the police.
They do tend to get stopped and searched more often. I can imagine if you are a law abiding citizen then getting stopped all the time for no apparent reason would start to grate and then become offensive.
...I think the main problem is that many prominent so called "leaders" of the Black community not just in England but in France/America are blaming it on the so called "fact" that black people are "marginalised" and "excluded". Rather than addressing the problem of the glamourisation of crime in their own culture, I have not heard any of them come out and say "Look it's clear we have a problem, we need to address it and tackle it" not one of them, and the longer that denial continues the longer these stereotypes will fester.
That said though if you are really offended by Police racism in effect I suggest you never ever visit Spain/Italy or any part Eastern Europe.
Comments
So I'll ask the obvious question that nobody ever wants to ask.
What proportion of black men in areas where they are being stopped are likely to be carrying a weapon drugs compared to the rest of the population?
Or, what proportion of convicted criminals are black men in comparison to their proportion of men in the general population?
Black men are more likely to come from and live in a poor background. Perhaps if we look at the stats for working class white men compared to middleclass white men and their dealings with the police we would see some telling discrepancies.
Like it or not Police like any other workers will take the path of least resistance to get results. I notice that they are stopping mostly black men and not black women. Perhaps that is because they are a lot less likely to be carrying weapons or drugs. If it was purely down to racism they should be stopping women as much as men surely?
Anybody have a source for these figures?
Having said all that if I was a black lad who was minding my own business and not doing any thing illegal and was constantly getting stopped I would soon get pissed off too.
as i see it, the police stop and search people who they think are likely to be implicated in a crime (such as carrying a weapon). here they stop chavs...
i guess we are talking about young people here, late teens early 20's... its all well and good twisting the stats to suggest blacks are 'picked on' more then whites... but for it to be accurate, its not a case of black vs white because there millions more white most of which (being old) wont be committing the type of crime young people do.
as a % what % of young black people committ crime compared with the % of young white people.... IF these % match the % of people being stopped.... then theres no problem. its a just %. i guess though we dont have these figures so its all about the ridiculous black vs white per se.
Ministry of justice quarterly figures indicate that the proportion of black/black British individuals who are aged 15yrs+ in the UK population is just over 2%, but constitute over 13% of the current prison population. I'll link this data later, just heading out.
So if those figures are correct, that means that the earlier stats of blacks being 6 to 7 times more likely to be stopped are roughly in line with the MOJ figures.
If that is the case, why isn't it ever pointed out?
Because prison stats don't really prove anything- if white criminals are being overlooked then they're not gonna end up in prison in the first place.
If white guys carrying knives, whatever percentage of them there are (and as said above, though it may be smaller it's definitely not zero), are not being stopped, they don't get counted.
It's like Constable Savage on Spitting Image- "Why do you keep arresting this man?" "He's a jailbird, sir!"
Said in jest or not, that comment is racially offensive to the indigenous population.
I recommend you get rid of it.
That old chestnut.
Police have bent over backwards after that and it was 20 years ago.
People need to get over it and look inwards to their "communities". If you tolerate gun, knife crime and gang activity within your ethnic group and it becomes the predominant source of criminality in an area then I expect the police to target suspects.
I do not expect the police to have to work out quotas to randomly "deal" with people of another ethnic background just to appease those who tolerate criminality within their "community".
It seems some people want it both ways and they've had that for long enough.
I suspect you would get a clearer picture to the proportion of black people in prison if you combined it with social background.
If 90% of people in prison come from an economically deprived back ground, and 90% of black people come from an economically deprived background, then it stands to reason that the majority of people in prison will be black.
If you broke down the crime stats town by town then you would get a different picture altogether.
Oh please. Few too many if's there pal.
I see the police dealing with crime all too frequently, they deal with the crime not the criminal.
If there are proportionately more people of a given background in prison it is because they a committing more crime than they represent as a share of the population.
I agree entirely that prison stats alone aren't sufficient so, i've dug out this: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/269399/Race-and-cjs-2012.pdf
Table A indicates that -
White people represent 87.1% of the population, 67.1% of stop and searches, 79.5% of arrests, 83.9% of cautions, 73.2% of convictions and 70% of cases sentenced to custody.
Black people represent 3.1% of the population, 14.2% of stop and searches, 8.3% of arrests, 7.0% of cautions, 7.5% of convictions and 8.9% of cases sentenced to custody.
This indicates that even though they are stopped more (proportionately) than the white population, they are more likely to be arrested and jailed. Meaning the population is massively over-represented in its criminality.
If this was down to racism, then we would expect similar figures in other ethnic groups...
Asian people represent 6.4% of the population, 10.3% of stop and searches, 5.9% of arrests, 5.2% of cautions, 4.5% of convictions and 5.5% of cases sentenced to custody.
As it turns out, it is only people identified as belonging to the black group which is overrepresented in terms of criminality when it comes to their share of the population.
This tells me -
a). The police are right to target groups in particular areas where crime is high on the basis of ethnic group of the main perpetrators.
b). There is more crime associated with the black "community" than would be expected, all things considered, given their share of the population.
c). That whinging about being stopped and searched is certainly a legitimate complaint for some law abiding people but is a necessary evil based on the evidence.
d). The facts speak for themselves, I'm not going to be swayed by subjective emotional rhetoric.
No, its your opinion! You have no information to back that up at all!
I accept that some prejudices can develop AFTER people join but that is almost always as a result of crime.
There are areas, particularly in London, where the majority of crime (mainly street crime) is committed by black people, it is then no wonder some police officers become suspicious of the black community. This in turn develops trust issues on both sides, of course. However, the problems arise when such police officers transfer to another area where the crime statistics aren't as skewed, but they continue to hold these suspicions of black people as a result of their experiences!
I was a police officer in a provincial area where there weren't such areas and as a result I have no prejudice toward black people at all, however, in the specific area I served in, a lot of crime was committed by the Gypsy or Travelling community and I did, while serving there, develop a suspicion of them.
The only solution to issues with the police is for people to start thinking for themselves and treat the police exactly as they find them…if they have an issue with the police they need to deal with it specifically and individually without generalising or making assumptions about the police service in general….it is no surprise that there will be racist or prejudiced members of any organisation or group of people ( including groups of non white people btw) but you get absolutely nowhere if you don't apply intelligent understanding to that fact and use your own self respect and sense of worth to not becoming a victim of it……..the woe is me herd mentality gets you nowhere.
Good post!
I have arrested around 5 black people in my ten years as an officer. Each time I've been accused of being racist, only arresting them because they are black, not being a real black man etc.
I've witnessed colleagues arrest black people, legitimately, and the offender accuse them of racism.
I think some communities see the police as racist and oppressive in all circumstances. I think the Duggan situation highlights that.
I've heard a lot of people refer to Duggans death as proof of Police racism, yet no-one even knows the race of the officer who shot him.
I think black males have legitimate reason to be somewhat weary of the police.
They do tend to get stopped and searched more often. I can imagine if you are a law abiding citizen then getting stopped all the time for no apparent reason would start to grate and then become offensive.
That said though if you are really offended by Police racism in effect I suggest you never ever visit Spain/Italy or any part Eastern Europe.
i`m "indigenous" and remain unoffended.
And you speak for everyone do you?
I'm not sure she said she did?
Yeah, I know, she's just stating the mindlessly obvious as per usual.
It is a shame we can't block some users on here as her comments are always drivel.
the use of the "i`m" is a clue, I`M pointing out that you are not speaking for me.
put me on ignore then, fool.