John Redfern. I thought Family of Blood was such a moving episode. Humandoctor had a wife, a family, grew old together... All the things he could never do as a thousand year old time traveller.
John Redfern. I thought Family of Blood was such a moving episode. Humandoctor had a wife, a family, grew old together... All the things he could never do as a thousand year old time traveller.
Strictly speaking, the Doctor wasn't himself then.
This is an interesting topic, as you can talk about the character in the same way you do when analysing a book for English A-Level - and like then as well you can over-analyse it as well, which Doctor Who fans are superb at doing anyway.
I'm going to start off my opinion, by talking somewhat relevantly about dogs. Yes, dogs. Cats work as well, but dogs seem to fit the analogy I'm going with better. People form close attachments to dogs, and we see them grow at a rate far quicker than we do a human - we accept this as normal because it's just what dogs do. A dog will live for about 15 years or so, more if you're lucky. But as a typical age, that wouldn't be bad going. It's sad when they die, and that connection is gone.
To apply this to the Doctor and his love of particular humans. To quote the Tenth Doctor in School Reunion, "you wither, and you die". It's the dog scenario all over again - living a far shorter lifespan than the Doctor himself does. The painful difference is that both time lord and human can connect on a far more intimate level, and typically share almost identical anatomical qualities. In physicality and mentality, a human is an equal to a time lord. And yet The Doctor has to witness them grow and change far quicker than he has to with his extended lifespan, he has to watch them wither and die whilst he can just regenerate. Love is a painful thing for the Doctor, to again quote School Reunion "so fleeting, so many goodbyes". These are the kinds of reasons why I feel he may find it incredibly hard to admit to Rose that he loves her, the kind of reasons why he likes to keep the domestics out of the Tardis (well, Nine did anyway), and the kind of reasons why he may even have a fleeting but intense interest in other people along the way.
Love itself is wholly subjective, and impossible to define any specific way. I believe that he genuinely loved Rose, but was constantly trying to avoid facing up to it - because he couldn't deal with the fleeting nature of it all, and the inevitable goodbye that would come when he would outlive her and be forced to move on. After she saved him in The Parting of the Ways with god-like levels of power it showed the strength and resilience she had, and I think it serves as a good enough explanation as any as to why in his following incarnation his relationship became far more romantic than platonic. I think he got sidetracked, his concerns and anxieties dismissed because he saw Rose surviving and always coming back to him. You could even argue this is perhaps why the Doctor (jokingly for the most part) has an attraction for powerful women or "bad girls" as it were. By displaying power, he's somehow under the impression that maybe they'll be the one that finds a way to always stay with him.
The other companion I think he's had a romantic, or love interest in is Clara though it's far different to Rose. His love for Clara is timeless now, more of a silent adoration. She is the companion that has stayed with him...albeit with huge gaps along the way. She was the woman who was there for him when he lost the Ponds, and was with him by his side all the way to the time he ultimately saved Gallifrey in The Day of the Doctor - probably one of the best days of his life. She subsequently was there for him when the Trenzalore stay occurred in The Time of the Doctor, and was there for him even after nearly a thousand years of ageing. Not stopping there, the odd quiver aside she has stayed by him even through a rough regeneration where he changed an awful lot. Whilst I think originally the two just liked each other a little bit in a 'passing fancy' kind of way, they now share a deep, extensive friendship that has hints of something deeper and more complicated. In a way, it'll be devastating for him to see her eventually go, but with Clara he's had the chance to have her in his life for a very long time...and I think that may cushion the blow. She's the impossible girl who stayed.
You then have his other friends and companions. In The Girl in the Fireplace, I feel that Reinette was someone he felt truly "got" him in a way no other person had. It's fair to say that whilst we genuinely love the person we're with, the notion that two people are 'soulmates' is a little too fairytale, as is the idea that another person can 'complete' us. And there are people out there who may know us, or 'get' us, or appreciate us in a far more meaningful way than the person we end up with. So whilst he loves Rose to pieces, Reinette was that more attractive, more in-tune woman who passes by, and without cheapening his love for Rose knows he probably would have settled for Reinette if the circumstances had been different.
River, as a character, I felt was let down by the decision to presume that so much happens between the characters off-screen. It makes it a lot harder to pinpoint how the Doctor feels about her. Like Clara though, she's a woman who served as a constant throughout a significant period of his life. Whilst their marriage wasn't one committed out of an act of love, I do still think he has very strong feelings for her - though somewhat like Rose, he won't admit to them. In The Name of the Doctor, he admits to River he was hurt at the thought of having to say goodbye to her... and I feel their whole 'if you ever loved me' farewell was very sincere. Similarly when arguing with Ten in The Day of the Doctor, Eleven is asked where he could possibly be in his life that he could have moved on from the Time War tragedies, to which he simply replied "Spoilers". Open to interpretation of course, but I really feel that that was a sign that River was the light at the end of the tunnel for him. She was the one who proved to him that there is still reason to live and to love, and to move on from those tragedies. She pulled him out of a dark place, and even if her feelings for him were stronger and more committed than the other way around, it was still the case that the Doctor loved River and was denying himself the closeness that would have meant a more painful goodbye.
The Doctor also has a powerful love for his friends, which is a bit different really. He went somewhat off the rails after losing Donna the way he did in Journey's End (not helped by the fact he had to send Rose back to Pete's World), and he did the same in a different way after losing Amy in The Angels Take Manhattan (and Rory, to a smaller extent).
So, I do think the Doctor loves people... a lot more than he ever admits. And that's the point. He has to live his life differently to those around him, but he's always been capable of love - he had a family once upon a time and he loved them very much. He'll never have that again, and he keeps a distance from those that he loves because he cannot bear to lose anyone else - which is an inevitablilty every time.
Erm sorry to burst your bubble but you've actually described what 'love' actually is quite succinctly .Without wishing to be Captain Buzzkill but I'm afraid the whole concept of soulmates and perfect partners is a cosy lie that we tell ourselves to make us feel better when we decide to just settle .Otherwise wouldn't it be funny how 99% of people seem to find their perfect love living in the same postcode/commuting on the same train/working in the same office...hell! living in the same time!
Woah - I get the impression there's a few issues there!
I don't believe in the concept of soulmates or predestination at all, but that doesn't mean that love isn't something that persists or lasts. There may be thousands of people out there that would be a good match for you, but that doesn't matter much unless you meet them. Then you form a relationship with them, and shared experiences with them, and feel a certain way about them when they're not around, etc. And that's love.
From that perspective, the Doctor most certainly feels love. He's had to learn to be an expert in moving on, but I don't think he ever forgets.
This is an interesting topic, as you can talk about the character in the same way you do when analysing a book for English A-Level - and like then as well you can over-analyse it as well, which Doctor Who fans are superb at doing anyway.
I'm going to start off my opinion, by talking somewhat relevantly about dogs. Yes, dogs. Cats work as well, but dogs seem to fit the analogy I'm going with better. People form close attachments to dogs, and we see them grow at a rate far quicker than we do a human - we accept this as normal because it's just what dogs do. A dog will live for about 15 years or so, more if you're lucky. But as a typical age, that wouldn't be bad going. It's sad when they die, and that connection is gone.
To apply this to the Doctor and his love of particular humans. To quote the Tenth Doctor in School Reunion, "you wither, and you die". It's the dog scenario all over again - living a far shorter lifespan than the Doctor himself does. The painful difference is that both time lord and human can connect on a far more intimate level, and typically share almost identical anatomical qualities. In physicality and mentality, a human is an equal to a time lord. And yet The Doctor has to witness them grow and change far quicker than he has to with his extended lifespan, he has to watch them wither and die whilst he can just regenerate. Love is a painful thing for the Doctor, to again quote School Reunion "so fleeting, so many goodbyes". These are the kinds of reasons why I feel he may find it incredibly hard to admit to Rose that he loves her, the kind of reasons why he likes to keep the domestics out of the Tardis (well, Nine did anyway), and the kind of reasons why he may even have a fleeting but intense interest in other people along the way.
Love itself is wholly subjective, and impossible to define any specific way. I believe that he genuinely loved Rose, but was constantly trying to avoid facing up to it - because he couldn't deal with the fleeting nature of it all, and the inevitable goodbye that would come when he would outlive her and be forced to move on. After she saved him in The Parting of the Ways with god-like levels of power it showed the strength and resilience she had, and I think it serves as a good enough explanation as any as to why in his following incarnation his relationship became far more romantic than platonic. I think he got sidetracked, his concerns and anxieties dismissed because he saw Rose surviving and always coming back to him. You could even argue this is perhaps why the Doctor (jokingly for the most part) has an attraction for powerful women or "bad girls" as it were. By displaying power, he's somehow under the impression that maybe they'll be the one that finds a way to always stay with him.
The other companion I think he's had a romantic, or love interest in is Clara though it's far different to Rose. His love for Clara is timeless now, more of a silent adoration. She is the companion that has stayed with him...albeit with huge gaps along the way. She was the woman who was there for him when he lost the Ponds, and was with him by his side all the way to the time he ultimately saved Gallifrey in The Day of the Doctor - probably one of the best days of his life. She subsequently was there for him when the Trenzalore stay occurred in The Time of the Doctor, and was there for him even after nearly a thousand years of ageing. Not stopping there, the odd quiver aside she has stayed by him even through a rough regeneration where he changed an awful lot. Whilst I think originally the two just liked each other a little bit in a 'passing fancy' kind of way, they now share a deep, extensive friendship that has hints of something deeper and more complicated. In a way, it'll be devastating for him to see her eventually go, but with Clara he's had the chance to have her in his life for a very long time...and I think that may cushion the blow. She's the impossible girl who stayed.
You then have his other friends and companions. In The Girl in the Fireplace, I feel that Reinette was someone he felt truly "got" him in a way no other person had. It's fair to say that whilst we genuinely love the person we're with, the notion that two people are 'soulmates' is a little too fairytale, as is the idea that another person can 'complete' us. And there are people out there who may know us, or 'get' us, or appreciate us in a far more meaningful way than the person we end up with. So whilst he loves Rose to pieces, Reinette was that more attractive, more in-tune woman who passes by, and without cheapening his love for Rose knows he probably would have settled for Reinette if the circumstances had been different.
River, as a character, I felt was let down by the decision to presume that so much happens between the characters off-screen. It makes it a lot harder to pinpoint how the Doctor feels about her. Like Clara though, she's a woman who served as a constant throughout a significant period of his life. Whilst their marriage wasn't one committed out of an act of love, I do still think he has very strong feelings for her - though somewhat like Rose, he won't admit to them. In The Name of the Doctor, he admits to River he was hurt at the thought of having to say goodbye to her... and I feel their whole 'if you ever loved me' farewell was very sincere. Similarly when arguing with Ten in The Day of the Doctor, Eleven is asked where he could possibly be in his life that he could have moved on from the Time War tragedies, to which he simply replied "Spoilers". Open to interpretation of course, but I really feel that that was a sign that River was the light at the end of the tunnel for him. She was the one who proved to him that there is still reason to live and to love, and to move on from those tragedies. She pulled him out of a dark place, and even if her feelings for him were stronger and more committed than the other way around, it was still the case that the Doctor loved River and was denying himself the closeness that would have meant a more painful goodbye.
The Doctor also has a powerful love for his friends, which is a bit different really. He went somewhat off the rails after losing Donna the way he did in Journey's End (not helped by the fact he had to send Rose back to Pete's World), and he did the same in a different way after losing Amy in The Angels Take Manhattan (and Rory, to a smaller extent).
So, I do think the Doctor loves people... a lot more than he ever admits. And that's the point. He has to live his life differently to those around him, but he's always been capable of love - he had a family once upon a time and he loved them very much. He'll never have that again, and he keeps a distance from those that he loves because he cannot bear to lose anyone else - which is an inevitablilty every time.
Wow, great post. I think you may have just changed my mind.
Love exists because it is a behavioural trait that increases the chances of passing your genetic material on to the next generation. Most (almost all) people are born capable of love and wanting to be loved. Those who aren't are much less likely to succeed in passing on their genetic material. But recognising that is not to deny that love also has deep personal significance way beyond its evolutionary "purpose".
You can only fall in love with someone you actually come into contact with. This automatically excludes people who are not in your post code, social group, time period etc. It doesn't mean there is no such thing as "soul mates" or couples who are near perfect for each other. It does mean that, given the size of the planet's human population, there are probably others who are also near perfect partners, but you'll also probably never meet them.
It does mean that if you enlarge your social group (i.e. get out and meet people), travel more, live longer you increase your chances of meeting someone who is your perfect partner. Absolute perfection is rare though. Perhaps the tricky bit is deciding whether your current partner is "good enough" and worth "settling for" versus continuing the search and the chance of not meeting someone "better".
As for the Doctor, I think the pet analogy works very well.
Interesting to wonder whether he's capable of romantic love for another being with a similar lifespan - like another Timelord. Pure speculation, but I think he must have been deeply hurt by whatever caused him to lose almost all his family. It may also have been the cause of him deciding to leave Galifrey with his granddaughter. Whatever it was, It must have been quite traumatic.
He had a kind of bro-mance with John Simm's Master and now that the Master is female, what are the chances of them "getting together" and rekindling the Timelord species all over again? As far as I know, Timelord reproduction has not been deeply examined within the series itself.
But, perhaps he just needs to meet the right Timelady.:)
He ought to be a misanthropic drunk stumbling in and out of intergalactic brothels (Gatiss if you're reading this...13 should definitely be like this) .
Tina Turner what's love got to do with it ?. Doctor would never go near Miss in a romantic or sexual way. No matter how drunk or depressed he was. :o
Wonder if his emotional love life will be shown again in S9.:)
Tina Turner what's love got to do with it ?. Doctor would never go near Miss in a romantic or sexual way. No matter how drunk or depressed he was. :o
Wonder if his emotional love life will be shown again in S9.:)
As the only (known) extant members of the Timelord species in this universe, they might feel obliged to. No doubt there's plenty of technology around to assist. Maybe the next time they meet, Missy could be accompanied by a child, or even pregnant, and claim the Doctor is the father? She could have taken a "sample" by force or trickery...
But perhaps the whole thing is too adult (in a juvenile, Torchwood series 1, kind of way) for Doctor Who.
Then you form a relationship with them, and shared experiences with them, and feel a certain way about them when they're not around, etc. And that's love.
etc. And that's love.
Love that part, such a good way to describe what love is and sometimes can be, like love has just zoomed by but whoops, was looking the other way.:D
Comments
Strictly speaking, the Doctor wasn't himself then.
I'm going to start off my opinion, by talking somewhat relevantly about dogs. Yes, dogs. Cats work as well, but dogs seem to fit the analogy I'm going with better. People form close attachments to dogs, and we see them grow at a rate far quicker than we do a human - we accept this as normal because it's just what dogs do. A dog will live for about 15 years or so, more if you're lucky. But as a typical age, that wouldn't be bad going. It's sad when they die, and that connection is gone.
To apply this to the Doctor and his love of particular humans. To quote the Tenth Doctor in School Reunion, "you wither, and you die". It's the dog scenario all over again - living a far shorter lifespan than the Doctor himself does. The painful difference is that both time lord and human can connect on a far more intimate level, and typically share almost identical anatomical qualities. In physicality and mentality, a human is an equal to a time lord. And yet The Doctor has to witness them grow and change far quicker than he has to with his extended lifespan, he has to watch them wither and die whilst he can just regenerate. Love is a painful thing for the Doctor, to again quote School Reunion "so fleeting, so many goodbyes". These are the kinds of reasons why I feel he may find it incredibly hard to admit to Rose that he loves her, the kind of reasons why he likes to keep the domestics out of the Tardis (well, Nine did anyway), and the kind of reasons why he may even have a fleeting but intense interest in other people along the way.
Love itself is wholly subjective, and impossible to define any specific way. I believe that he genuinely loved Rose, but was constantly trying to avoid facing up to it - because he couldn't deal with the fleeting nature of it all, and the inevitable goodbye that would come when he would outlive her and be forced to move on. After she saved him in The Parting of the Ways with god-like levels of power it showed the strength and resilience she had, and I think it serves as a good enough explanation as any as to why in his following incarnation his relationship became far more romantic than platonic. I think he got sidetracked, his concerns and anxieties dismissed because he saw Rose surviving and always coming back to him. You could even argue this is perhaps why the Doctor (jokingly for the most part) has an attraction for powerful women or "bad girls" as it were. By displaying power, he's somehow under the impression that maybe they'll be the one that finds a way to always stay with him.
The other companion I think he's had a romantic, or love interest in is Clara though it's far different to Rose. His love for Clara is timeless now, more of a silent adoration. She is the companion that has stayed with him...albeit with huge gaps along the way. She was the woman who was there for him when he lost the Ponds, and was with him by his side all the way to the time he ultimately saved Gallifrey in The Day of the Doctor - probably one of the best days of his life. She subsequently was there for him when the Trenzalore stay occurred in The Time of the Doctor, and was there for him even after nearly a thousand years of ageing. Not stopping there, the odd quiver aside she has stayed by him even through a rough regeneration where he changed an awful lot. Whilst I think originally the two just liked each other a little bit in a 'passing fancy' kind of way, they now share a deep, extensive friendship that has hints of something deeper and more complicated. In a way, it'll be devastating for him to see her eventually go, but with Clara he's had the chance to have her in his life for a very long time...and I think that may cushion the blow. She's the impossible girl who stayed.
You then have his other friends and companions. In The Girl in the Fireplace, I feel that Reinette was someone he felt truly "got" him in a way no other person had. It's fair to say that whilst we genuinely love the person we're with, the notion that two people are 'soulmates' is a little too fairytale, as is the idea that another person can 'complete' us. And there are people out there who may know us, or 'get' us, or appreciate us in a far more meaningful way than the person we end up with. So whilst he loves Rose to pieces, Reinette was that more attractive, more in-tune woman who passes by, and without cheapening his love for Rose knows he probably would have settled for Reinette if the circumstances had been different.
River, as a character, I felt was let down by the decision to presume that so much happens between the characters off-screen. It makes it a lot harder to pinpoint how the Doctor feels about her. Like Clara though, she's a woman who served as a constant throughout a significant period of his life. Whilst their marriage wasn't one committed out of an act of love, I do still think he has very strong feelings for her - though somewhat like Rose, he won't admit to them. In The Name of the Doctor, he admits to River he was hurt at the thought of having to say goodbye to her... and I feel their whole 'if you ever loved me' farewell was very sincere. Similarly when arguing with Ten in The Day of the Doctor, Eleven is asked where he could possibly be in his life that he could have moved on from the Time War tragedies, to which he simply replied "Spoilers". Open to interpretation of course, but I really feel that that was a sign that River was the light at the end of the tunnel for him. She was the one who proved to him that there is still reason to live and to love, and to move on from those tragedies. She pulled him out of a dark place, and even if her feelings for him were stronger and more committed than the other way around, it was still the case that the Doctor loved River and was denying himself the closeness that would have meant a more painful goodbye.
The Doctor also has a powerful love for his friends, which is a bit different really. He went somewhat off the rails after losing Donna the way he did in Journey's End (not helped by the fact he had to send Rose back to Pete's World), and he did the same in a different way after losing Amy in The Angels Take Manhattan (and Rory, to a smaller extent).
So, I do think the Doctor loves people... a lot more than he ever admits. And that's the point. He has to live his life differently to those around him, but he's always been capable of love - he had a family once upon a time and he loved them very much. He'll never have that again, and he keeps a distance from those that he loves because he cannot bear to lose anyone else - which is an inevitablilty every time.
Woah - I get the impression there's a few issues there!
I don't believe in the concept of soulmates or predestination at all, but that doesn't mean that love isn't something that persists or lasts. There may be thousands of people out there that would be a good match for you, but that doesn't matter much unless you meet them. Then you form a relationship with them, and shared experiences with them, and feel a certain way about them when they're not around, etc. And that's love.
From that perspective, the Doctor most certainly feels love. He's had to learn to be an expert in moving on, but I don't think he ever forgets.
You can only fall in love with someone you actually come into contact with. This automatically excludes people who are not in your post code, social group, time period etc. It doesn't mean there is no such thing as "soul mates" or couples who are near perfect for each other. It does mean that, given the size of the planet's human population, there are probably others who are also near perfect partners, but you'll also probably never meet them.
It does mean that if you enlarge your social group (i.e. get out and meet people), travel more, live longer you increase your chances of meeting someone who is your perfect partner. Absolute perfection is rare though. Perhaps the tricky bit is deciding whether your current partner is "good enough" and worth "settling for" versus continuing the search and the chance of not meeting someone "better".
As for the Doctor, I think the pet analogy works very well.
Interesting to wonder whether he's capable of romantic love for another being with a similar lifespan - like another Timelord. Pure speculation, but I think he must have been deeply hurt by whatever caused him to lose almost all his family. It may also have been the cause of him deciding to leave Galifrey with his granddaughter. Whatever it was, It must have been quite traumatic.
He had a kind of bro-mance with John Simm's Master and now that the Master is female, what are the chances of them "getting together" and rekindling the Timelord species all over again? As far as I know, Timelord reproduction has not been deeply examined within the series itself.
But, perhaps he just needs to meet the right Timelady.:)
Oh, God, please, yes.
What is Love, anyway? Does Anybody love anybody, anyway?
Wonder if his emotional love life will be shown again in S9.:)
As the only (known) extant members of the Timelord species in this universe, they might feel obliged to. No doubt there's plenty of technology around to assist. Maybe the next time they meet, Missy could be accompanied by a child, or even pregnant, and claim the Doctor is the father? She could have taken a "sample" by force or trickery...
But perhaps the whole thing is too adult (in a juvenile, Torchwood series 1, kind of way) for Doctor Who.
Or rather too soap opery.
etc. And that's love.
Love that part, such a good way to describe what love is and sometimes can be, like love has just zoomed by but whoops, was looking the other way.:D