This is godsend for the US and UK etc. They should grab this opportunity to clip Erdogans wings and call his bluff with regards to his complicity with ISIS.
Russia should now take the opportunity to arm the Kurdish to their teeth and help them in their battle for independence.
British holiday makers should be wary of holidays in Turkey. Turkey needs to be taught a severe lesson and these techniques are better than all out war.
totally agree. what disaster has this been for the usa and uk. the russians said that their campaign agaisnt isis was a pretend one.....not really doing much and now we know why. russia have shown them up.
It exists. The question is in what numbers, The FSA are the people with the modern anti-tank missile teams doing most damage to the Syrian army They are the only people getting the western, weapons - on a one fired, one new delivery basis. . They have their own units , but seem to be acting as firepower support to other groups facing Syrian attack. In that area, there's FSA , and Turkomen groups - that Putin said he wouldn't bomb, and al Nusra fighters - which the UN resolution left as legitimate targets.Thats not an ISIS area. Its dubious Putin makes a real distinction, or his pilots can tell who they are chucking bombs at.
I know the Turkmen have suffered greatly from Russian bombing but shooting parachuting airmen and then whooping for joy is very poor show. Makes me sad!!
I would of preferred they took them to the towns they have bombed and asked the families of the civilians killed in market places, schools, hospitals etc what they wanted to see happen to the Russian pigs.
It exists. The question is in what numbers, The FSA are the people with the modern anti-tank missile teams doing most damage to the Syrian army They are the only people getting the western, weapons - on a one fired, one new delivery basis. . They have their own units , but seem to be acting as firepower support to other groups facing Syrian attack. In that area, there's FSA , and Turkomen groups - that Putin said he wouldn't bomb, and al Nusra fighters - which the UN resolution left as legitimate targets.Thats not an ISIS area. Its dubious Putin makes a real distinction, or his pilots can tell who they are chucking bombs at.
There is no distinction. Just look at how many civilians are killed by these strikes.
Well, it exists as a kind of shell company which takes in lots of money and arms from the West and redistributes most of it to the IS. In return, the IS allows the ethnic Turkmen a small patch of territory for their own.
I would of preferred they took them to the towns they have bombed and asked the families of the civilians killed in market places, schools, hospitals etc what they wanted to see happen to the Russian pigs.
Do you think that we should do the same with captured IS terrorists here in Europe?
In Islam there is Qisas which is law of retaliation.
And it's precisely because laws like that exist that hundreds of millions of Muslims - perhaps even a majority - prefer to leave the Muslim world and come live in the Judeo-Christian one.
Well, it exists as a kind of shell company which takes in lots of money and arms from the West and redistributes most of it to the IS. In return, the IS allows the ethnic Turkmen a small patch of territory for their own.
I'm afraid that a lot of the Syrian "moderate" opposition only ever existed to play precisely this con trick. Sadly, most of the Western political leadership were taken in.
I'm afraid that a lot of the Syrian "moderate" opposition only ever existed to play precisely this con trick. Sadly, most of the Western political leadership were taken in.
Despite the supposed cooperation between the different sides, the Russian provocation flights continued unabated and the Turkish government has finally had enough with today's result.
Herehttps://goo.gl/maps/DCHxVgeYUkJ2 is where the incident took place. It's a southern pointing neck of Turkish land that the Su-24 flew over thus violating Turkish airspace (yet again) so the Turks were perfectly entitled to respond which they have now done. The air traffic control radars also confirm that the Su-24 did cross into Turkish airspace.
It also appears that one of the two Russian rescue helicopters sent to look for and pick up the pilots has now been shot down by a surface to air missile. However, that's nothing to do with Turkey; that's an internal Syrian conflict matter.
Despite the supposed cooperation between the different sides, the Russian provocation flights continued unabated and the Turkish government has finally had enough with today's result.
.
And of course the Russians are notorious for shooting down any aircraft that strays into Russian airspace.
I would of preferred they took them to the towns they have bombed and asked the families of the civilians killed in market places, schools, hospitals etc what they wanted to see happen to the Russian pigs.
There is no distinction. Just look at how many civilians are killed by these strikes.
Thats because the Russian and Syrian ROE don't bother much with collateral damage, and their equipment is mostly too dated to allow the use of smaller, accurate, guided weapons. The coalition attacks have been very much limited, by having key areas, like Raqa and Mosul, ruled out for most strikes - because of the density of civilians. If the US was using B52s to carpet bomb urban districts, the left would be rioting on the streets - but there's been not a peep since Russia deployed 25 heavy bombers to bomb Syria, in retaliation for their downed airliner.
In return, the IS allows the ethnic Turkmen a small patch of territory for their own.
It should be painfully obvious by now who's been supporting and supplying ISIL. Question is whether our politicians will widen their sanctions to catch anyone who's been trading with the enemy and confiscating all their assets.. Which would help our budget deficit, but be.. unpopular given the connections.
Thats because the Russian and Syrian ROE don't bother much with collateral damage, and their equipment is mostly too dated to allow the use of smaller, accurate, guided weapons.
Other than all the guided weapons videos have shown Russia using. But yes, we get the story. When Russia uses bombs, it's careless. When Ukraine or Israel use them, they use them with precision. As does the US when it struck that Afghan hospital..
It also appears that one of the two Russian rescue helicopters sent to look for and pick up the pilots has now been shot down by a surface to air missile. However, that's nothing to do with Turkey; that's an internal Syrian conflict matter.
totally agree. what disaster has this been for the usa and uk. the russians said that their campaign agaisnt isis was a pretend one.....not really doing much and now we know why. russia have shown them up.
Until ISIS foolishly blew up a Russian airliner, Putin wasn't doing much at all against ISIS. He was trying to stop Assad's regime collapsing - and most of the threat to Latakia and the routes, north from Damascus to there, came from the FSA, moderate , regional and minority groups, and al Nusra - not ISIS.
The coalition air campaign has focused on the north, in support of the Kurds, where the enemy is ISIS, and the ISIS Areas in eastern Syria.The coalition hasn't been bombing western and central Syria, where most fighting is. Russia has bombed as far east as Raqa, and eastern ISIS oil facilities, but the coalition alone has been bombing the eastern towns, and doing most damage to the oil income. The coalition's main aim is to wind up ISIS in Iraq - which is why most bombs land there, and why most of the rest of the effort goes into their support areas in eastern Syria. The coalition has no intent to prop up the Assad regime.
Russian propaganda can rarely be believed , Putin's recent, macho, claim to have destroyed 500 ISIS oil tankers, was designed to outbid the US taking out nearly 300 beforehand - but there seems to now be only 100 dead oil tankers, where the Russian's hit.
Shot by a US made missile not by the the Americans . The Malaysian airliner was shot down by a Russian BUK missile so you then have to say the airliner was shot down by a Russian missile ?
But then you get you news from RT lol .I was watching RT earlier today for some light entertainment . The three presenters were chatting via video link to a Russian expert in London . All was going well until the London based expert said it was clear that the Russian jets skirted into Turkish airspace for a few moments and that Turkey had previously warned Russia not to enter its airspace which Russia has ignored . Suddenly the audio began to break up was lost and then picture disappeared . Cue very uncomfortable glances between the three stooges presenting the news . They said they were having problems but would get the expert back asap . 10 mins later the expert returned but no more mention of Turkeys warning or the slight incursion into their airspace . Seems the Kremlin pressed the censorship button .
Russian propaganda can rarely be believed , Putin's recent, macho, claim to have destroyed 500 ISIS oil tankers,
Not much different to other nation's claims about getting tough on terrorists. So the West did thousands of sorties and ISIL seemed to carry on as usual.
was designed to outbid the US taking out nearly 300 beforehand - but there seems to now be only 100 dead oil tankers, where the Russian's hit.
Surely a more important question is where those tankers were coming from, going to, and who was trading that oil. So the people financing ISIL and enriching themselves in the process, whilst Paris mourns..
Until ISIS foolishly blew up a Russian airliner, Putin wasn't doing much at all against ISIS. He was trying to stop Assad's regime collapsing - and most of the threat to Latakia and the routes, north from Damascus to there, came from the FSA, moderate , regional and minority groups, and al Nusra - not ISIS.
The coalition air campaign has focused on the north, in support of the Kurds, where the enemy is ISIS, and the ISIS Areas in eastern Syria.The coalition hasn't been bombing western and central Syria, where most fighting is. Russia has bombed as far east as Raqa, and eastern ISIS oil facilities, but the coalition alone has been bombing the eastern towns, and doing most damage to the oil income. The coalition's main aim is to wind up ISIS in Iraq - which is why most bombs land there, and why most of the rest of the effort goes into their support areas in eastern Syria. The coalition has no intent to prop up the Assad regime.
Russian propaganda can rarely be believed , Putin's recent, macho, claim to have destroyed 500 ISIS oil tankers, was designed to outbid the US taking out nearly 300 beforehand - but there seems to now be only 100 dead oil tankers, where the Russian's hit.
Your very valid points will be lost on the handful of pro Putin supporters on this forum.
Shot by a US made missile not by the the Americans . The Malaysian airliner was shot down by a Russian BUK missile so you then have to say the airliner was shot down by a Russian missile ?
But then you get you news from RT lol
Could be worse, you could get it from somewhere like CNN-
Your very valid points will be lost on the handful of pro Putin supporters on this forum.
So is it legal to remove Assad? And would it be legal for Turkey to grab a chunk of Syria in the pretense of protecting it's Turkmen? And then grabbing more transit fees from the proposed trans-Syrian oil & gas pipeline..
Other than all the guided weapons videos have shown Russia using. But yes, we get the story. When Russia uses bombs, it's careless. When Ukraine or Israel use them, they use them with precision. As does the US when it struck that Afghan hospital..
Ukraine is short of modern munitions too - its got the same old cold war dumb bombs the Russians are mostly using.
Israel and the. western airforces over Syria are only using modern prevcision guided bombs . There's a big difference between 250-500 lb bombs arriving 5-10 metres from where they are aimed, and 2000-3000lb bombs arriving within 100 metres if you are lucky. Even more difference if its a modern US, low blast, weapon, or a small UK Brimstone missile.. Even the heavier bombs cause a lot less collateral damage, if they actually hit the target, instead of anywhere in the block. Western collateral damage tend to come from dud weapons, wrong intelligence, and essential targets being dug in next to civilians, Apart from the 12 Russian Su34's and cruise missiles , Russian colalteral damage is a necessary consequence of using 1970s technology.
The Russians also have the problem that their fighter weapons don't have stand off ranges, so they are flying high, and fast, over targets and dropping more in hope than expectation. US and Israeli planes can take out targets from 40-70 miles away, and the weapon doesn't get nervous, doesn't get less accurate with range, and doesn't miss the co-ordinates its been told to go to, and can be diverted if civilians appear on the target . The Ukrainian airforce has no similar weapons ,and has been much less active than it might have been otherwise - because Russia has supplied the insurgents in the Ukraine with a lot of air defence capability.
First on CNN: Sources say MH17 report blames Russian missile for shooting down plane.
The joy of proxy wars.. Or in CNN's case, probably just cluelessness. So Russian helicopter shot by US missile would seem fine by CNN standards.
The crucial difference we in the West have many many sources of information. Some media are pro their governments position but there as many that don't toe the part line and are critical . In Russian there is only one voice one media one narrative one leader one party (for now anyway) .
I note you ignore my point re the naming of missiles . When the Ukraine shoots down a helicopter using a US made hardware its "shot down by an American missile But when
presumably the Rebels (by mistake) shoot down an airliner you can't bring yourself to say the same " it was shot down by a Russian missile" - you do see the double standard in this don't you ?
You know its a shame really. You do provide some valid and accurate critisisim of the US and the West its just a shame you find it difficult to be objective re the Russians .
So is it legal to remove Assad? And would it be legal for Turkey to grab a chunk of Syria in the pretense of protecting it's Turkmen? And then grabbing more transit fees from the proposed trans-Syrian oil & gas pipeline..
No ... It would be illegial to remove Assad . It would be illegial for Turkey to grab a chunk of Syrian just as it was illegial for Russia to grab two Georgian provences and the Crimea . Do you think it was legal or Illegial for Russia to annex two of Georgias provences ?
Comments
totally agree. what disaster has this been for the usa and uk. the russians said that their campaign agaisnt isis was a pretend one.....not really doing much and now we know why. russia have shown them up.
It exists. The question is in what numbers, The FSA are the people with the modern anti-tank missile teams doing most damage to the Syrian army They are the only people getting the western, weapons - on a one fired, one new delivery basis. . They have their own units , but seem to be acting as firepower support to other groups facing Syrian attack. In that area, there's FSA , and Turkomen groups - that Putin said he wouldn't bomb, and al Nusra fighters - which the UN resolution left as legitimate targets.Thats not an ISIS area. Its dubious Putin makes a real distinction, or his pilots can tell who they are chucking bombs at.
I would of preferred they took them to the towns they have bombed and asked the families of the civilians killed in market places, schools, hospitals etc what they wanted to see happen to the Russian pigs.
There is no distinction. Just look at how many civilians are killed by these strikes.
Well, it exists as a kind of shell company which takes in lots of money and arms from the West and redistributes most of it to the IS. In return, the IS allows the ethnic Turkmen a small patch of territory for their own.
Do you think that we should do the same with captured IS terrorists here in Europe?
Whatever the law permits.
In Islam there is Qisas which is law of retaliation.
And it's precisely because laws like that exist that hundreds of millions of Muslims - perhaps even a majority - prefer to leave the Muslim world and come live in the Judeo-Christian one.
If so one dispairs.
I'm afraid that a lot of the Syrian "moderate" opposition only ever existed to play precisely this con trick. Sadly, most of the Western political leadership were taken in.
The ME really is a basket case.
It wasn't. Since the deployment of Russian Sukhoi Su-24 multi-role ground attack and interceptor aircraft, they have been deliberately and provocatively flown both close to, and in, Turkish airspace.
Despite the supposed cooperation between the different sides, the Russian provocation flights continued unabated and the Turkish government has finally had enough with today's result.
Here https://goo.gl/maps/DCHxVgeYUkJ2 is where the incident took place. It's a southern pointing neck of Turkish land that the Su-24 flew over thus violating Turkish airspace (yet again) so the Turks were perfectly entitled to respond which they have now done. The air traffic control radars also confirm that the Su-24 did cross into Turkish airspace.
It also appears that one of the two Russian rescue helicopters sent to look for and pick up the pilots has now been shot down by a surface to air missile. However, that's nothing to do with Turkey; that's an internal Syrian conflict matter.
And of course the Russians are notorious for shooting down any aircraft that strays into Russian airspace.
Thats because the Russian and Syrian ROE don't bother much with collateral damage, and their equipment is mostly too dated to allow the use of smaller, accurate, guided weapons. The coalition attacks have been very much limited, by having key areas, like Raqa and Mosul, ruled out for most strikes - because of the density of civilians. If the US was using B52s to carpet bomb urban districts, the left would be rioting on the streets - but there's been not a peep since Russia deployed 25 heavy bombers to bomb Syria, in retaliation for their downed airliner.
It should be painfully obvious by now who's been supporting and supplying ISIL. Question is whether our politicians will widen their sanctions to catch anyone who's been trading with the enemy and confiscating all their assets.. Which would help our budget deficit, but be.. unpopular given the connections.
Other than all the guided weapons videos have shown Russia using. But yes, we get the story. When Russia uses bombs, it's careless. When Ukraine or Israel use them, they use them with precision. As does the US when it struck that Afghan hospital..
Or in a Ukranian sense, shot by a US missile..
https://www.rt.com/news/323306-video-russia-helicopter-syria/
by the 'moderate terrorists'
Until ISIS foolishly blew up a Russian airliner, Putin wasn't doing much at all against ISIS. He was trying to stop Assad's regime collapsing - and most of the threat to Latakia and the routes, north from Damascus to there, came from the FSA, moderate , regional and minority groups, and al Nusra - not ISIS.
The coalition air campaign has focused on the north, in support of the Kurds, where the enemy is ISIS, and the ISIS Areas in eastern Syria.The coalition hasn't been bombing western and central Syria, where most fighting is. Russia has bombed as far east as Raqa, and eastern ISIS oil facilities, but the coalition alone has been bombing the eastern towns, and doing most damage to the oil income. The coalition's main aim is to wind up ISIS in Iraq - which is why most bombs land there, and why most of the rest of the effort goes into their support areas in eastern Syria. The coalition has no intent to prop up the Assad regime.
Russian propaganda can rarely be believed , Putin's recent, macho, claim to have destroyed 500 ISIS oil tankers, was designed to outbid the US taking out nearly 300 beforehand - but there seems to now be only 100 dead oil tankers, where the Russian's hit.
Shot by a US made missile not by the the Americans . The Malaysian airliner was shot down by a Russian BUK missile so you then have to say the airliner was shot down by a Russian missile ?
But then you get you news from RT lol .I was watching RT earlier today for some light entertainment . The three presenters were chatting via video link to a Russian expert in London . All was going well until the London based expert said it was clear that the Russian jets skirted into Turkish airspace for a few moments and that Turkey had previously warned Russia not to enter its airspace which Russia has ignored . Suddenly the audio began to break up was lost and then picture disappeared . Cue very uncomfortable glances between the three stooges presenting the news . They said they were having problems but would get the expert back asap . 10 mins later the expert returned but no more mention of Turkeys warning or the slight incursion into their airspace . Seems the Kremlin pressed the censorship button .
Not much different to other nation's claims about getting tough on terrorists. So the West did thousands of sorties and ISIL seemed to carry on as usual.
Surely a more important question is where those tankers were coming from, going to, and who was trading that oil. So the people financing ISIL and enriching themselves in the process, whilst Paris mourns..
Your very valid points will be lost on the handful of pro Putin supporters on this forum.
Could be worse, you could get it from somewhere like CNN-
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/15/politics/mh17-pro-russian-missile-crash-ukraine/index.html
First on CNN: Sources say MH17 report blames Russian missile for shooting down plane.
The joy of proxy wars.. Or in CNN's case, probably just cluelessness. So Russian helicopter shot by US missile would seem fine by CNN standards.
So is it legal to remove Assad? And would it be legal for Turkey to grab a chunk of Syria in the pretense of protecting it's Turkmen? And then grabbing more transit fees from the proposed trans-Syrian oil & gas pipeline..
Ukraine is short of modern munitions too - its got the same old cold war dumb bombs the Russians are mostly using.
Israel and the. western airforces over Syria are only using modern prevcision guided bombs . There's a big difference between 250-500 lb bombs arriving 5-10 metres from where they are aimed, and 2000-3000lb bombs arriving within 100 metres if you are lucky. Even more difference if its a modern US, low blast, weapon, or a small UK Brimstone missile.. Even the heavier bombs cause a lot less collateral damage, if they actually hit the target, instead of anywhere in the block. Western collateral damage tend to come from dud weapons, wrong intelligence, and essential targets being dug in next to civilians, Apart from the 12 Russian Su34's and cruise missiles , Russian colalteral damage is a necessary consequence of using 1970s technology.
The Russians also have the problem that their fighter weapons don't have stand off ranges, so they are flying high, and fast, over targets and dropping more in hope than expectation. US and Israeli planes can take out targets from 40-70 miles away, and the weapon doesn't get nervous, doesn't get less accurate with range, and doesn't miss the co-ordinates its been told to go to, and can be diverted if civilians appear on the target . The Ukrainian airforce has no similar weapons ,and has been much less active than it might have been otherwise - because Russia has supplied the insurgents in the Ukraine with a lot of air defence capability.
The crucial difference we in the West have many many sources of information. Some media are pro their governments position but there as many that don't toe the part line and are critical . In Russian there is only one voice one media one narrative one leader one party (for now anyway) .
I note you ignore my point re the naming of missiles . When the Ukraine shoots down a helicopter using a US made hardware its "shot down by an American missile But when
presumably the Rebels (by mistake) shoot down an airliner you can't bring yourself to say the same " it was shot down by a Russian missile" - you do see the double standard in this don't you ?
You know its a shame really. You do provide some valid and accurate critisisim of the US and the West its just a shame you find it difficult to be objective re the Russians .
No ... It would be illegial to remove Assad . It would be illegial for Turkey to grab a chunk of Syrian just as it was illegial for Russia to grab two Georgian provences and the Crimea . Do you think it was legal or Illegial for Russia to annex two of Georgias provences ?