Although I should clarify, I'm oriental Asian and was thinking more oriental than Indian/Pakistani Asian.
Also on the subject of "violence" , why do some people think that a slap in the face is violence but a smack on the legs isn't?
In my view physical punishment is punishment no matter where you apply it, but calling it violence is an individual opinion.
Its all the dame to me, i do not agree with any type of hitting unless in self defence. A person laying their hand forcibly on another is violence, regardless of how you paint it.
I have four children, 5-14, they are well rounded and very bright, the eldest two won scholarships to the local grammar school. I have never hit them, but they were very naughty when very young.
As I said, violence is never ever acceptable more so against children.
Maybe one day you'll realise that children are human beings and not belongings. Let's hope it's soon.
But they aren't independent from birth, so someone has to look after them. If we are prepared to trust the parents of said child with it's upbringing, then those individuals are responsible for that child.
We don't just step in from the side on isolated incidents and then step back out again.
That's like saying 'I'll comment on one aspect of your parenting and tell you that you mustn't do that but with everything else you are on your own.'
The child is aware that hitting someone hurts them but just by mum or dad shouting at them they don't feel any pain so what do they care? If you then hit them they learn what it actually feels like to be hit. They will associate hitting someone with the pain they feel and won't repeat it because they won't want to be hit back. Therefore they are less likely to do it again.
If all you do is tell a child off then they will either keep on doing something because they know it winds you up (children do that, no point suggesting they don't do things to get a rise out of mummy and daddy) or they will keep on hitting someone else to inflict pain with nothing causing them pain back until someone who isn't a parent hits them and then it's a much worse situation.
If we go back to the original scenario in the OP. If the young child had bruises on her face then we could assume the parent beats her regularly. If she had none then we can assume it's a one off thing and the child clearly did something the parent felt deserved a public slap in the face. I'm sure most people on here are just looking for something more than it was but I am finding it increasingly likely that the adult was trying to get a very strong message to the child who did something very wrong. No abuser would hit a child in public, in broad daylight and then just stand around like a duck in hunting season. A young child won't just not react to being hit even if it's regular too. I still think something had happened to scare the child previous to the slap and the mother was reacting to that event. Unless the adult is properly laying into the kid without any let up or any reason then I still fully agree with hitting children as a way of teaching them not to do something bad.
I can speak from my own experience of being hit as a child made me think much more about what I had done than just being told off as I could just forget about the telling off within minutes, at least a good slap gave me something to feel for an hour or so.
Its all the dame to me, i do not agree with any type of hitting unless in self defence. A person laying their hand forcibly on another is violence, regardless of how you paint it.
I have four children, 5-14, they are well rounded and very bright, the eldest two won scholarships to the local grammar school. I have never hit them, but they were very naughty when very young.
As I said, violence is never ever acceptable more so against children.
Yes as I said, an individual opinion.
I like how honest you were in saying that despite not punishing them physically, your children were very naughty when very young. Some could say there is a link.
I wasn't very naughty as a child, mainly for the fear of the cane I knew I would get if I played up. To me that is a direct link between the strict punishment I knew I would get and learning to behave because of it.
The child is aware that hitting someone hurts them but just by mum or dad shouting at them they don't feel any pain so what do they care? If you then hit them they learn what it actually feels like to be hit. They will associate hitting someone with the pain they feel and won't repeat it because they won't want to be hit back. Therefore they are less likely to do it again.
If all you do is tell a child off then they will either keep on doing something because they know it winds you up (children do that, no point suggesting they don't do things to get a rise out of mummy and daddy) or they will keep on hitting someone else to inflict pain with nothing causing them pain back until someone who isn't a parent hits them and then it's a much worse situation.
If we go back to the original scenario in the OP. If the young child had bruises on her face then we could assume the parent beats her regularly. If she had none then we can assume it's a one off thing and the child clearly did something the parent felt deserved a public slap in the face. I'm sure most people on here are just looking for something more than it was but I am finding it increasingly likely that the adult was trying to get a very strong message to the child who did something very wrong. No abuser would hit a child in public, in broad daylight and then just stand around like a duck in hunting season. A young child won't just not react to being hit even if it's regular too. I still think something had happened to scare the child previous to the slap and the mother was reacting to that event. Unless the adult is properly laying into the kid without any let up or any reason then I still fully agree with hitting children as a way of teaching them not to do something bad.
I can speak from my own experience of being hit as a child made me think much more about what I had done than just being told off as I could just forget about the telling off within minutes, at least a good slap gave me something to feel for an hour or so.
You didn't have any ultimate boundary apart from being hit so how do you know what your behaviour would have been without the use of violence. Once any child is hit as a way of disciplining them, they will push the boundaries until that happens to stop them again. They also build up defences against the fear of being hit. Is that healthy for any child? It's bullying, pure and simple. It's no different to schoolyard bullying or any other type, where the strongest wins. What do you think of any smacked child hitting other children. Would it somehow be hypocritically wrong? Do you think it's ok to hit someone your own size when they disagree with you or do something wrong?
I had 5 children and neither of us ever hit any of them. Proper parenting is a far better option. There are also higher rates of crime and violence from adults who were physically disciplined as children.
I like how honest you were in saying that despite not punishing them physically, your children were very naughty when very young. Some could say there is a link.
I wasn't very naughty as a child, mainly for the fear of the cane I knew I would get if I played up. To me that is a direct link between the strict punishment I knew I would get and learning to behave because of it.
Just to buck the trend, I was a very naughty child and the fear of violence never stopped me.
I like how honest you were in saying that despite not punishing them physically, your children were very naughty when very young. Some could say there is a link.
I wasn't very naughty as a child, mainly for the fear of the cane I knew I would get if I played up. To me that is a direct link between the strict punishment I knew I would get and learning to behave because of it.
I was highlighting the fact that when they got to the age where they were old enough yo be responsible for their behaviour, about 7, their behaviour changed for the positive. Children up to 5-6 are naughty, its how they test boundaries Physical violence was completely Unecessary. It really isn't an individual opinion that hitting a child is wrong, it is morally and hopefully will be one day, legally, wrong.
I was highlighting the fact that when they got to the age where they were old enough yo be responsible for their behaviour, about 7, their behaviour changed for the positive. Children up to 5-6 are naughty, its how they test boundaries Physical violence was completely Unecessary. It really isn't an individual opinion that hitting a child is wrong, it is morally and hopefully will be one day, legally, wrong.
What is the matter with people!
I think you'll find it is, as not everyone actually agrees. Even some parents on this thread think a tap or smack on the hand or bum is fine as a form of discipline (which in itself is still "hitting a child"). Especially as you say its morally wrong, well it depends on your level of morality and what you consider as moral right or wrong which is an individual opinion.
How can any one not see the difference between a tap on the hand or bum and a slap across the face ? The difference is huge actually .Ask any child that
Maybe not all, but in general.
Asian parents are far stricter than western parents and the results show as Asian children are normally better behaved and excel in education compared to their western counterparts.
What a general , based on nothing statement ,Prove it with links and research please .Or is it based purely on opinion .
I think you'll find it is, as not everyone actually agrees. Even some parents on this thread think a tap or smack on the hand or bum is fine as a form of discipline (which in itself is still "hitting a child"). Especially as you say its morally wrong, well it depends on your level of morality and what you consider as moral right or wrong which is an individual opinion.
What's the difference between a slap in the face and a "clip round the ear"?
Most parents seem to forget that a physical punishment was normal 30 years ago, it was not seen as bullying or bad parenting, in fact strangers could discipline other people's kids, but now its frowned upon and now we have unruly kids who are far worse because they know they are untouchable.
Coming from an Asian background, physical discipline was the norm, and guess what? Asian kids are far better behaved.
No 2. Where is physical discipline mentioned as a factor of academic achievement in any of those articles?
I started school in 1953 and corporal punishment was never administered to girls all the way through to my Grammar School. Our education and behaviour most certainly didn't suffer as a result. Yet the boys were always the worst behaved, by far and received a lot of it. How is that explained away? The statistical evidence is also contrary to your claims.
Nothing there has proven it is due to tougher discipline . In fact it states that research is needed as to why .One states it may be due to Asian ( Chinese actually ) kids being pushed harder
Once again to state that Asian kids are in general better behaved is based on your opinion only . If I took my small road as an example I too could have an opinion .But its not a general fact at all .On my cul de sac the only children I see as being poorly supervised and tending to naughtiness are Asian . Oddly enough when I speak to them and explain my issues with them they are no trouble . I stopped then throwing their rubbish in my garden and kicking a ball against my window by chatting to them about how it upset us . Their mums shouting and screaming and thumping them has very little effect on them
Thats talking about higher education though, not the behaviour of 5-6 years olds. I too am of Oriental heritage and in my experience all kids are the same, no matter what race.
How can any one not see the difference between a tap on the hand or bum and a slap across the face ? The difference is huge actually .Ask any child that
What makes the face special?
I was smacked very occasional as a boy, and I feel it did me the world of good, while I haven't smacked my child yet - I reserve the right to do so one day if I feel it is the most appropriate action available to me for the child and circumstances.
Nothing there has proven it is due to tougher discipline . In fact it states that research is needed as to why .One states it may be due to Asian ( Chinese actually ) kids being pushed harder
Once again to state that Asian kids are in general better behaved is based on your opinion only . If I took my small road as an example I too could have an opinion .But its not a general fact at all .On my cul de sac the only children I see as being poorly supervised and tending to naughtiness are Asian . Oddly enough when I speak to them and explain my issues with them they are no trouble . I stopped then throwing their rubbish in my garden and kicking a ball against my window by chatting to them about how it upset us . Their mums shouting and screaming and thumping them has very little effect on them
Physical and strict discipline is the norm for Oriental families, especially in China and Japan and Vietnam. Even though corporal punishment was banned in schools in China and Japan, it is in fact still widely practised all over.
You only have to do a quick google on Asian discipline to see that physical corporal punishment is culturally the way most South East Asians raise their children.
Therefore the link between harsher discipline and greater proportion of Asian going onto further studies is obvious.
However the argument of whether it is right or wrong is still a divided opinion, and I don't believe anyone can say which is right or wrong definitively.
You didn't have any ultimate boundary apart from being hit so how do you know what your behaviour would have been without the use of violence. Once any child is hit as a way of disciplining them, they will push the boundaries until that happens to stop them again. They also build up defences against the fear of being hit. Is that healthy for any child? It's bullying, pure and simple. It's no different to schoolyard bullying or any other type, where the strongest wins. What do you think of any smacked child hitting other children. Would it somehow be hypocritically wrong? Do you think it's ok to hit someone your own size when they disagree with you or do something wrong?
I had 5 children and neither of us ever hit any of them. Proper parenting is a far better option. There are also higher rates of crime and violence from adults who were physically disciplined as children.
Sorry I totally disagree. I didn't push the boundaries. I was hit and knew not to do that thing again.
Violence is not a parent slapping a child due to the child doing something wrong. Let's not get hysterical. My parents were not violent because they hit me when I, for example, pulled my sisters hair for no reason or hit her with my shoe. They were perfectly reasonable to do so. If they had beaten me for dropping a spoon on the floor or spilling my glass of water then yes, I'd agree, it'd be child abuse, but my home wasn't like that.
It is 100% different to schoolyard bullying. A schoolyard bully hits another kid for no reason. A parent doesn't just walk up and start insulting their own child in the playground then beat them up because they wear glasses or have non designer shoes.
You can't compare parents hitting a child who has done something very wrong to a schoolyard bully. Sorry, you simply can't, they are not the same thing at all!
I've never said a single thing about hitting someone who disagrees with me. This is purely about parenting and my parents hit me and my sister when we hit one another. I am thankful for it as I lead a perfectly normal, stable life, as does my sister and neither of us was ever involved in any fights or trouble at school. I believe that our upbringing was the basis of that. I don't know a single one of my cousins (I have 12) who wasn't hit when they misbehaved and frankly they have all grown up without even a hint of social problems in their lives. Hitting children as punishment clearly works. If it's not what you did then fair enough, but my family did and there were literally 0 negative consequences from it.
Sorry I totally disagree. I didn't push the boundaries. I was hit and knew not to do that thing again.
Violence is not a parent slapping a child due to the child doing something wrong. Let's not get hysterical. My parents were not violent because they hit me when I, for example, pulled my sisters hair for no reason or hit her with my shoe. They were perfectly reasonable to do so. If they had beaten me for dropping a spoon on the floor or spilling my glass of water then yes, I'd agree, it'd be child abuse, but my home wasn't like that.
It is 100% different to schoolyard bullying. A schoolyard bully hits another kid for no reason. A parent doesn't just walk up and start insulting their own child in the playground then beat them up because they wear glasses or have non designer shoes.
You can't compare parents hitting a child who has done something very wrong to a schoolyard bully. Sorry, you simply can't, they are not the same thing at all!
I've never said a single thing about hitting someone who disagrees with me. This is purely about parenting and my parents hit me and my sister when we hit one another. I am thankful for it as I lead a perfectly normal, stable life, as does my sister and neither of us was ever involved in any fights or trouble at school. I believe that our upbringing was the basis of that. I don't know a single one of my cousins (I have 12) who wasn't hit when they misbehaved and frankly they have all grown up without even a hint of social problems in their lives. Hitting children as punishment clearly works. If it's not what you did then fair enough, but my family did and there were literally 0 negative consequences from it.
As I do with you. No child needs to be hit to learn right from wrong. You have no idea what it means to be successfully disciplined without ever being hit and therefore no basis for comment from that perspective. It's violence however you care to dress it up and for whatever reason. Hitting you because you'd hurt your sister is violence in return for violence and it teaches a child what exactly? What a weird and totally hypocritical mixed message that is. It's pointless and startlingly ironic you claiming it worked. It clearly hasn't when you've grown up to believe it's an acceptable way for any adult to behave towards a defenceless child. Any adult resorting to physically hurting a child to get their own way, has lost reasonable and mature control. To hit an adult is assault. It's far worse to do it to a helpless child and far from being good for them.
I've intervened when I've had to witness it. Scaring the child even further is always possible with an aggressive parent as they obviously have little regard for, or ability to relate to their child.
I got slapped on the cheek and my ears clipped by my mum when I misbehaved, it didn't make me behave better but didn't do me any harm either. She wasn't some sort of violent monster, in fact she was a very loving parent, but I was such a sh*t and I'd push her patience to the edge. These situations always look worse when watching from the side. Kids today rule the roost, adults are afraid to say anything to them or lay a finger on them, and the kids know it. Some kind of balance is needed, of course you can't beat them up but a smack is hardly child abuse.
I got slapped on the cheek and my ears clipped by my mum when I misbehaved, it didn't make me behave better but didn't do me any harm either. She wasn't some sort of violent monster, in fact she was a very loving parent, but I was such a sh*t and I'd push her patience to the edge. These situations always look worse when watching from the side. Kids today rule the roost, adults are afraid to say anything to them or lay a finger on them, and the kids know it. Some kind of balance is needed, of course you can't beat them up but a smack is hardly child abuse.
Yet, if she slapped an adult because she was annoyed with them she would be committing a criminal offence. The law needs addressing. No person should be legally entitled to strike another with malicious intent, outside self defence.
Yet, if she slapped an adult because she was annoyed with them she would be committing a criminal offence. The law needs addressing. No person should be legally entitled to strike another with malicious intent, outside self defence.
A child is not an adult. A parent isn't a disinterested stranger. A great ape doesn't get their child to sit on a naughty step when they have bitten them, they get a cuff. It's not 'criminal' it's pretty ordinary animal training behaviour.
Comments
Its all the dame to me, i do not agree with any type of hitting unless in self defence. A person laying their hand forcibly on another is violence, regardless of how you paint it.
I have four children, 5-14, they are well rounded and very bright, the eldest two won scholarships to the local grammar school. I have never hit them, but they were very naughty when very young.
As I said, violence is never ever acceptable more so against children.
We don't just step in from the side on isolated incidents and then step back out again.
That's like saying 'I'll comment on one aspect of your parenting and tell you that you mustn't do that but with everything else you are on your own.'
Yes as I said, an individual opinion.
I like how honest you were in saying that despite not punishing them physically, your children were very naughty when very young. Some could say there is a link.
I wasn't very naughty as a child, mainly for the fear of the cane I knew I would get if I played up. To me that is a direct link between the strict punishment I knew I would get and learning to behave because of it.
You didn't have any ultimate boundary apart from being hit so how do you know what your behaviour would have been without the use of violence. Once any child is hit as a way of disciplining them, they will push the boundaries until that happens to stop them again. They also build up defences against the fear of being hit. Is that healthy for any child? It's bullying, pure and simple. It's no different to schoolyard bullying or any other type, where the strongest wins. What do you think of any smacked child hitting other children. Would it somehow be hypocritically wrong? Do you think it's ok to hit someone your own size when they disagree with you or do something wrong?
I had 5 children and neither of us ever hit any of them. Proper parenting is a far better option. There are also higher rates of crime and violence from adults who were physically disciplined as children.
Just to buck the trend, I was a very naughty child and the fear of violence never stopped me.
I was highlighting the fact that when they got to the age where they were old enough yo be responsible for their behaviour, about 7, their behaviour changed for the positive. Children up to 5-6 are naughty, its how they test boundaries Physical violence was completely Unecessary. It really isn't an individual opinion that hitting a child is wrong, it is morally and hopefully will be one day, legally, wrong.
What is the matter with people!
I think you'll find it is, as not everyone actually agrees. Even some parents on this thread think a tap or smack on the hand or bum is fine as a form of discipline (which in itself is still "hitting a child"). Especially as you say its morally wrong, well it depends on your level of morality and what you consider as moral right or wrong which is an individual opinion.
What a general , based on nothing statement ,Prove it with links and research please .Or is it based purely on opinion .
now you're being obtuse
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/jan/27/black-asian-school-leavers-university-white-educational-underachievement-pupils
These are couple of years old now but still relevant
https://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/white-state-school-pupils-less-likely-to-go-to-university/2005992.article
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/feb/07/chinese-children-school-do-well
No I was arguing your point that "It really isn't an individual opinion that hitting a child is wrong".
I believe it is an individual opinion and was giving my reasons for that arguement.
No 1. Smacking isn't banned in this country.
No 2. Where is physical discipline mentioned as a factor of academic achievement in any of those articles?
I started school in 1953 and corporal punishment was never administered to girls all the way through to my Grammar School. Our education and behaviour most certainly didn't suffer as a result. Yet the boys were always the worst behaved, by far and received a lot of it. How is that explained away? The statistical evidence is also contrary to your claims.
Nothing there has proven it is due to tougher discipline . In fact it states that research is needed as to why .One states it may be due to Asian ( Chinese actually ) kids being pushed harder
Once again to state that Asian kids are in general better behaved is based on your opinion only . If I took my small road as an example I too could have an opinion .But its not a general fact at all .On my cul de sac the only children I see as being poorly supervised and tending to naughtiness are Asian . Oddly enough when I speak to them and explain my issues with them they are no trouble . I stopped then throwing their rubbish in my garden and kicking a ball against my window by chatting to them about how it upset us . Their mums shouting and screaming and thumping them has very little effect on them
Thats talking about higher education though, not the behaviour of 5-6 years olds. I too am of Oriental heritage and in my experience all kids are the same, no matter what race.
What makes the face special?
I was smacked very occasional as a boy, and I feel it did me the world of good, while I haven't smacked my child yet - I reserve the right to do so one day if I feel it is the most appropriate action available to me for the child and circumstances.
Physical and strict discipline is the norm for Oriental families, especially in China and Japan and Vietnam. Even though corporal punishment was banned in schools in China and Japan, it is in fact still widely practised all over.
You only have to do a quick google on Asian discipline to see that physical corporal punishment is culturally the way most South East Asians raise their children.
Therefore the link between harsher discipline and greater proportion of Asian going onto further studies is obvious.
However the argument of whether it is right or wrong is still a divided opinion, and I don't believe anyone can say which is right or wrong definitively.
Sorry I totally disagree. I didn't push the boundaries. I was hit and knew not to do that thing again.
Violence is not a parent slapping a child due to the child doing something wrong. Let's not get hysterical. My parents were not violent because they hit me when I, for example, pulled my sisters hair for no reason or hit her with my shoe. They were perfectly reasonable to do so. If they had beaten me for dropping a spoon on the floor or spilling my glass of water then yes, I'd agree, it'd be child abuse, but my home wasn't like that.
It is 100% different to schoolyard bullying. A schoolyard bully hits another kid for no reason. A parent doesn't just walk up and start insulting their own child in the playground then beat them up because they wear glasses or have non designer shoes.
You can't compare parents hitting a child who has done something very wrong to a schoolyard bully. Sorry, you simply can't, they are not the same thing at all!
I've never said a single thing about hitting someone who disagrees with me. This is purely about parenting and my parents hit me and my sister when we hit one another. I am thankful for it as I lead a perfectly normal, stable life, as does my sister and neither of us was ever involved in any fights or trouble at school. I believe that our upbringing was the basis of that. I don't know a single one of my cousins (I have 12) who wasn't hit when they misbehaved and frankly they have all grown up without even a hint of social problems in their lives. Hitting children as punishment clearly works. If it's not what you did then fair enough, but my family did and there were literally 0 negative consequences from it.
As I do with you. No child needs to be hit to learn right from wrong. You have no idea what it means to be successfully disciplined without ever being hit and therefore no basis for comment from that perspective. It's violence however you care to dress it up and for whatever reason. Hitting you because you'd hurt your sister is violence in return for violence and it teaches a child what exactly? What a weird and totally hypocritical mixed message that is. It's pointless and startlingly ironic you claiming it worked. It clearly hasn't when you've grown up to believe it's an acceptable way for any adult to behave towards a defenceless child. Any adult resorting to physically hurting a child to get their own way, has lost reasonable and mature control. To hit an adult is assault. It's far worse to do it to a helpless child and far from being good for them.
I've intervened when I've had to witness it. Scaring the child even further is always possible with an aggressive parent as they obviously have little regard for, or ability to relate to their child.
I don't agree with slapping a child around the face.
But cuffing the young judiciously on occasion is incredibly common in the animal kingdom, I don't see how we have to be so totally different.
Yet, if she slapped an adult because she was annoyed with them she would be committing a criminal offence. The law needs addressing. No person should be legally entitled to strike another with malicious intent, outside self defence.
A child is not an adult. A parent isn't a disinterested stranger. A great ape doesn't get their child to sit on a naughty step when they have bitten them, they get a cuff. It's not 'criminal' it's pretty ordinary animal training behaviour.
Why is that so hard to understand?