Many things do affect perceptions of immigration. I think the larger picture needs to be looked at and that would include the BNP as well as any collectives that hold oppressive views.
As to other parties, I think they all hold their share of bigotries in one way and another.
But hardly compare with BNP in the bigotry stakes!
On paper, Britain ought still to be able to trade freely with Europe, but would there be a backlash from Brussels designed to damage Britain’s interests if we turned our back on the single market?
What is fairly clear though, is that while Clegg’s right about the number of jobs dependent on trade with Europe, he should be very wary about suggesting that those jobs are automatically at risk if Britain’s relationship with the EU changes.
The 3 million jobs part is true, but they don't know what Brussels will do. So Brussels might renegotiate the terms of trade those jobs rely on, to our detriment or they might pull funding for joint projects like they did with Switzerland.
David Cameron isn't powerless he could offer us the same referendum on EU immigration caps the Swiss did. But the real concern is what do we risk losing from the EU for our defiance. The Swiss aren't in the EU, they just trade with it and they were required to accept the free movement principle. They were also suitably fearful of EU reprisals, to vote no on immigration caps.
If you want EU immigration to cease in the UK you've not only got to pulled out of the EU you've also got to stop trading with it. So those 3 million jobs would disappear from our economy.
That would be the consequence of getting what you want.
because those businesses would still sell their goods here, and we would still trade with the EU block (there may be tariffs ar taxes involved but we would still trade with them). i have read that approx 7% of all of Germanys exports are to the UK - do you honestly think the businesses in Germany would stop selling to us if we left the EU?
btw, i posted the link to show that the "3 million jobs wll be lost" is not true.
But its not just tariffs ar taxes involved, are we going to set our own standards of things like we used to have things like the british kite mark, because that would be stupid as we would still have to make export goods to the EU to thier standards not ours. Anything that increases the cost to buisness will be seen as negitive. And saying the EU and USA are in the middle of dong a trade deal, we would loss out on that market as well.
If you want EU immigration to cease in the UK you've not only got to pulled out of the EU you've also got to stop trading with it. So those 3 million jobs would disappear from our economy.
That would be the consequence of getting what you want.
What a bizarre statement - we trade quite well with Japan for instance yet I dont notice vast numbers of Japanese immigrants walking down Shoreditch High Street.
The 3 million jobs part is true, but they don't know what Brussels will do. So Brussels might renegotiate the terms of trade those jobs rely on, to our detriment or they might pull funding for joint projects like they did with Switzerland.
David Cameron isn't powerless he could offer us the same referendum on EU immigration caps the Swiss did. But the real concern is what do we risk losing from the EU for our defiance. The Swiss aren't in the EU, they just trade with it and they were required to accept the free movement principle. They were also suitably fearful of EU reprisals, to vote no on immigration caps.
If you want EU immigration to cease in the UK you've not only got to pulled out of the EU you've also got to stop trading with it. So those 3 million jobs would disappear from our economy.
That would be the consequence of getting what you want.
i don't want EU immigration to cease, i want it restricted. if we do pull out of the EU (i'd prefer a renegotiation to be honest), why do we have to stop trading with the EU? And i don't want to argue over the 3 million jobs that would disappear. they wouldn't. some would, perhaps even the majority, but not all 3 million. it's daft argument the people like clegg keep raising. it's a daft argument to scare the general public.
those businesses who only trade with the EU, would seek alternative markets, to try to remain in business.
What a bizarre statement - we trade quite well with Japan for instance yet I dont notice vast numbers of Japanese immigrants walking down Shoreditch High Street.
Not bizarre in the slightest - you made a logic jump too far.
1 hume is right in the main paragraph of the post you're responding to. If we don't trade with the EU, we lose that trade (unless the fantasy scenario that of course the rest of the world magically takes it up wholesale kicks in). If that happens, we don't need the extra workforce. Migration slows dramatically.
2 The Japanese example is nonsense. You're assuming that when we trade with a country we use their labour to produce the goods we export to them. That's bizarre.
What a bizarre statement - we trade quite well with Japan for instance yet I dont notice vast numbers of Japanese immigrants walking down Shoreditch High Street.
We trade quite well with the EU and I see Croatian, Polish, Romanians, French, Spanish etc walking down those lovely streets in Shoreditch.
We aren't trying to form a political union with the state of Japan.
We trade quite well with the EU and I see Croatian, Polish, Romanians, French, Spanish etc walking down those lovely streets in Shoreditch.
We aren't trying to form a political union with the state of Japan.
So we are agreed that to trade with another country we dont need to have immigration from that country.
Can you see why your original claim didnt make sense?
Not bizarre in the slightest - you made a logic jump too far.
1 hume is right in the main paragraph of the post you're responding to. If we don't trade with the EU, we lose that trade (unless the fantasy scenario that of course the rest of the world magically takes it up wholesale kicks in). If that happens, we don't need the extra workforce. Migration slows dramatically.
Who is claiming that trade with the EU would stop?
2 The Japanese example is nonsense. You're assuming that when we trade with a country we use their labour to produce the goods we export to them. That's bizarre.
I'm not assuming anything - it wasn't my claim that trade and immigration were linked.
So we are agreed that to trade with another country we dont need to have immigration from that country.
Can you see why your original claim didnt make sense?
We do need free movement (immigration) if we're trying to form a political union. Just like in the United States where citizens are free to move between states.
Your post puts the cart before the horse. Which clearly makes no sense.
The EU's top court has ruled that refugees who claim asylum on the grounds that they are homosexual should not have to undergo tests to prove it.
Three men, including a Ugandan and one from a Muslim country, failed in their bids for asylum when a Dutch court said they had not proved their sexuality.
EU states including the UK have been criticised for their handling of gay asylum requests.
So Ugandans and Muslims can & do face discrimination, jail etc if they're gay, but how should this be balanced against needs to control, or just verify asylum claims? Proving it at point of immigration is a bit... delicate, but so would any kind of follow-up checking to see if their asylum claims were fraudulent.
So Ugandans and Muslims can & do face discrimination, jail etc if they're gay, but how should this be balanced against needs to control, or just verify asylum claims? Proving it at point of immigration is a bit... delicate, but so would any kind of follow-up checking to see if their asylum claims were fraudulent.
The UK takes less than 1% of the World's refugees and asylum seekers. We can afford to take a lot more.
it's daft argument the people like clegg keep raising. it's a daft argument to scare the general public..
It is hardly a daft argument. What is being proposed (in withdrawal) is basically we play Russian roulette with a large part of the economy with it being very difficult to quantify how many chambers would be loaded against us and what the damage might be if we guess wrong.
Clearly there are some who hate the EU so much they would take the gamble even if they knew that every chamber was loaded against us and the damage would be awful. Most people though would probably think long and hard about making such a decision if they knew it might adversely impact 300 thousand people here, never mind one that might impact 3 million.
So we are agreed that to trade with another country we dont need to have immigration from that country.
Can you see why your original claim didnt make sense?
Do you actually read before responding?
Your response was to a comment about withdrawing from trading with the EU.
I'm not assuming anything - it wasn't my claim that trade and immigration were linked.
But it is.
Your Japanese comment makes no sense in context of hume's post - you said that we deal with the Japanese and you don't see loads of them in the streets. He was saying that if we didn't deal with the EU many jobs would be lost - and I pointed out that would mean migrant work.
In what way was it inaccurate? You seem to be ignoring the fact that while not all of the objections to immigration have been racist in nature, there are many that are.
It was inaccurate because he said I have always supported them and indicated it was all the policies I supported. Like all parties I maintain the BNP have a right to promote their policies and I concur with many of them including, but not limited to, deportation of illegal immigrants which I now believe the even the LibDEms are moving towards in a limited fashion.
Edit
Also he indicates all those who support the BNP are racists and bigots, which of course is opinion.
It was inaccurate because he said I have always supported them and indicated it was all the policies I supported. Like all parties I maintain the BNP have a right to promote their policies and I concur with many of them including, but not limited to, deportation of illegal immigrants which I now believe the even the LibDEms are moving towards in a limited fashion.
I think almost everyone wants illegal immigrants to be deported, unless there are strong human rights reasons why they shouldn't be.
Also he indicates all those who support the BNP are racists and bigots, which of course is opinion.
Though it is hard to see why anyone would support the BNP if they don't actually hold racist views!
I think almost everyone wants illegal immigrants to be deported, unless there are strong human rights reasons why they shouldn't be.
Though it is hard to see why anyone would support the BNP if they don't actually hold racist views!
Well it is funny but deportation of illegal immigrants is oft cited as one of their racist policies. As is deportation of foreign criminals.
It is hard for you to see but that may be because it is your opinion and accusations of racism are frequently just opinion and frequently bigoted opinion at that.
What inaccuracy? You have said that you agree with the BNP's immigration policies. Or are you saying BNP supporters aren't racists and bigots?
But I see you, a BNP supporter, are taking solace from recent UKIP successes.
Very telling.
Your memory has possibly let you down, I asked you some time ago to indicate which policies were racist. You highlighted some and argued they were racist I argued that I could see nothing specifically racist in the policies you highlighted which were no different from many policies adopted by a host of countries throughout the world.
I support the right of any group to promote what they believe in even Anjem Choudary and his group unless they specifically incite others to commit criminal acts. I do not believe the BNP incite others to commit crime. A little different from the UAF which you support. As you say, very telling.
I think almost everyone wants illegal immigrants to be deported, unless there are strong human rights reasons why they shouldn't be.
I think you'll find Clegg and BoJo The Clown both want to amnestify all illegals in the UK. However many millions (from a low estimate of 2 Million to 17 Million according to Tesco) that may be.
I think you'll find Clegg and BoJo The Clown both want to amnestify all illegals in the UK. However many millions (from a low estimate of 2 Million to 17 Million according to Tesco) that may be.
"17 Million according to Tesco" - where on earth does that factoid come from?
I'm willing to believe that there are more than 2 million illegal immigrants in the UK but you'd have to be insane to think there were as many as 17 million - and what would that have to do with Tesco anyway?
"17 Million according to Tesco" - where on earth does that factoid come from?
I'm willing to believe that there are more than 2 million illegal immigrants in the UK but you'd have to be insane to think there were as many as 17 million - and what would that have to do with Tesco anyway?
You don't know much about data analytics, do you? Tesco have the largest grocery retail database in the UK. They know exactly how many grammes of toothpaste the average Brit uses per annum and how many sheets of toilet tissue they use. From those and thousands of similar metrics they can calculate the UK population with great accuracy.
I fear the article I am looking for has been expunged from the Internet for obvious reasons. Meanwhile you'll have to make do with Greg Hands, MP:
Many observers think the UK’s population is much bigger [than 60.5 Million in 2006]. A leading figure at Tesco recently told one of my parliamentary colleagues that they estimate the population of the UK to be closer to 80 million, based on the volume of certain staples they sell. Tesco are probably a world leader in understanding their consumer market, so it would be foolish to disregard their opinion.
"17 Million according to Tesco" - where on earth does that factoid come from?
I'm willing to believe that there are more than 2 million illegal immigrants in the UK but you'd have to be insane to think there were as many as 17 million - and what would that have to do with Tesco anyway?
You don't know much about data analytics, do you? Tesco have the largest grocery retail database in the UK. They know exactly how many grammes of toothpaste the average Brit uses per annum and how many sheets of toilet tissue they use. From those and thousands of similar metrics they can calculate the UK population with great accuracy.
I fear the article I am looking for has been expunged from the Internet for obvious reasons. Meanwhile you'll have to make do with Greg Hands, MP:
Now I have to say I also read that article a few years back. I have no recall on the numbers it found though other than it was way in excess of the official estimates.
Comments
But hardly compare with BNP in the bigotry stakes!
From the link you provided
The 3 million jobs part is true, but they don't know what Brussels will do. So Brussels might renegotiate the terms of trade those jobs rely on, to our detriment or they might pull funding for joint projects like they did with Switzerland.
David Cameron isn't powerless he could offer us the same referendum on EU immigration caps the Swiss did. But the real concern is what do we risk losing from the EU for our defiance. The Swiss aren't in the EU, they just trade with it and they were required to accept the free movement principle. They were also suitably fearful of EU reprisals, to vote no on immigration caps.
If you want EU immigration to cease in the UK you've not only got to pulled out of the EU you've also got to stop trading with it. So those 3 million jobs would disappear from our economy.
That would be the consequence of getting what you want.
But its not just tariffs ar taxes involved, are we going to set our own standards of things like we used to have things like the british kite mark, because that would be stupid as we would still have to make export goods to the EU to thier standards not ours. Anything that increases the cost to buisness will be seen as negitive. And saying the EU and USA are in the middle of dong a trade deal, we would loss out on that market as well.
What a bizarre statement - we trade quite well with Japan for instance yet I dont notice vast numbers of Japanese immigrants walking down Shoreditch High Street.
i don't want EU immigration to cease, i want it restricted. if we do pull out of the EU (i'd prefer a renegotiation to be honest), why do we have to stop trading with the EU? And i don't want to argue over the 3 million jobs that would disappear. they wouldn't. some would, perhaps even the majority, but not all 3 million. it's daft argument the people like clegg keep raising. it's a daft argument to scare the general public.
those businesses who only trade with the EU, would seek alternative markets, to try to remain in business.
1 hume is right in the main paragraph of the post you're responding to. If we don't trade with the EU, we lose that trade (unless the fantasy scenario that of course the rest of the world magically takes it up wholesale kicks in). If that happens, we don't need the extra workforce. Migration slows dramatically.
2 The Japanese example is nonsense. You're assuming that when we trade with a country we use their labour to produce the goods we export to them. That's bizarre.
We trade quite well with the EU and I see Croatian, Polish, Romanians, French, Spanish etc walking down those lovely streets in Shoreditch.
We aren't trying to form a political union with the state of Japan.
So we are agreed that to trade with another country we dont need to have immigration from that country.
Can you see why your original claim didnt make sense?
Who is claiming that trade with the EU would stop?
I'm not assuming anything - it wasn't my claim that trade and immigration were linked.
We do need free movement (immigration) if we're trying to form a political union. Just like in the United States where citizens are free to move between states.
Your post puts the cart before the horse. Which clearly makes no sense.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/30290532
So Ugandans and Muslims can & do face discrimination, jail etc if they're gay, but how should this be balanced against needs to control, or just verify asylum claims? Proving it at point of immigration is a bit... delicate, but so would any kind of follow-up checking to see if their asylum claims were fraudulent.
The UK takes less than 1% of the World's refugees and asylum seekers. We can afford to take a lot more.
It is hardly a daft argument. What is being proposed (in withdrawal) is basically we play Russian roulette with a large part of the economy with it being very difficult to quantify how many chambers would be loaded against us and what the damage might be if we guess wrong.
Clearly there are some who hate the EU so much they would take the gamble even if they knew that every chamber was loaded against us and the damage would be awful. Most people though would probably think long and hard about making such a decision if they knew it might adversely impact 300 thousand people here, never mind one that might impact 3 million.
Do you actually read before responding?
Your response was to a comment about withdrawing from trading with the EU.
But it is.
Your Japanese comment makes no sense in context of hume's post - you said that we deal with the Japanese and you don't see loads of them in the streets. He was saying that if we didn't deal with the EU many jobs would be lost - and I pointed out that would mean migrant work.
It was inaccurate because he said I have always supported them and indicated it was all the policies I supported. Like all parties I maintain the BNP have a right to promote their policies and I concur with many of them including, but not limited to, deportation of illegal immigrants which I now believe the even the LibDEms are moving towards in a limited fashion.
Edit
Also he indicates all those who support the BNP are racists and bigots, which of course is opinion.
Though it is hard to see why anyone would support the BNP if they don't actually hold racist views!
Well it is funny but deportation of illegal immigrants is oft cited as one of their racist policies. As is deportation of foreign criminals.
It is hard for you to see but that may be because it is your opinion and accusations of racism are frequently just opinion and frequently bigoted opinion at that.
Your memory has possibly let you down, I asked you some time ago to indicate which policies were racist. You highlighted some and argued they were racist I argued that I could see nothing specifically racist in the policies you highlighted which were no different from many policies adopted by a host of countries throughout the world.
I support the right of any group to promote what they believe in even Anjem Choudary and his group unless they specifically incite others to commit criminal acts. I do not believe the BNP incite others to commit crime. A little different from the UAF which you support. As you say, very telling.
I think you'll find Clegg and BoJo The Clown both want to amnestify all illegals in the UK. However many millions (from a low estimate of 2 Million to 17 Million according to Tesco) that may be.
"17 Million according to Tesco" - where on earth does that factoid come from?
I'm willing to believe that there are more than 2 million illegal immigrants in the UK but you'd have to be insane to think there were as many as 17 million - and what would that have to do with Tesco anyway?
Tesco has been having serious accounting issue lately apparently.
Maybe they were caused by seriously over-estimating the immigrant population they expect to shop there? :-)
You don't know much about data analytics, do you? Tesco have the largest grocery retail database in the UK. They know exactly how many grammes of toothpaste the average Brit uses per annum and how many sheets of toilet tissue they use. From those and thousands of similar metrics they can calculate the UK population with great accuracy.
I fear the article I am looking for has been expunged from the Internet for obvious reasons. Meanwhile you'll have to make do with Greg Hands, MP:
From: http://cornerstone-group.org.uk/2008/02/25/how-many-people-live-in-britain-%E2%80%93-by-greg-hands-mp/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/city-eye-facts-on-a-plate-our-population-is-at-least-77-million-395428.html
Now I have to say I also read that article a few years back. I have no recall on the numbers it found though other than it was way in excess of the official estimates.