Trump Slams Building Of Air Force One

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  • LostFoolLostFool Posts: 90,623
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    Lyricalis wrote: »
    It looks a lot more affordable, but the two aren't directly comparable. For a start, the US is much bigger than the UK, so more use of air travel over road or rail, and do we really care if our leaders are around after a nuclear attack? ;)

    Maybe not, but I expect that Presidents would care if you are around after a nuclear attack and they are the ones who approve the costs.

    I suspect that this will be another Trump announcement which is quietly dropped in the weeks and months to come.
  • mimik1ukmimik1uk Posts: 46,701
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    LostFool wrote: »
    Maybe not, but I expect that Presidents would care if you are around after a nuclear attack and they are the ones who approve the costs.

    I suspect that this will be another Trump announcement which is quietly dropped in the weeks and months to come.

    he has supposedly already said in a telephone interview he did with one of the news outlets today that he has spoken with the Boeing CEO and confident they will come to a "deal"
  • LostFoolLostFool Posts: 90,623
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    mimik1uk wrote: »
    he has supposedly already said in a telephone interview he did with one of the news outlets today that he has spoken with the Boeing CEO and confident they will come to a "deal"

    Will the "deal" include Air Force One carrying advertising for Trump's hotels on the side of the plane?
  • duckymallardduckymallard Posts: 13,936
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    Why do US presidents need special hugely expense planes?
    Is there not a chain of command in the event the US president is unavailable or killed?
    Other countries do not bother providing their heads of state, presidents or prime ministers with special hugely expensive planes.

    What would be UK posters deriding Trump, response to Theresa May declaring the UK would spend £2.54 billion on two special planes for her and future prime ministers use.

    Firstly you need to realise Trump will be the head of state as well as being the head of government and commander in chief of US Forces - May is only the head of government - the other two positions are with Lizzie.

    Secondly you need to realise that in the grand scheme of the world we are nowhere near as important a player as the USA - even though many foolishly still reckon we are.

    The President is not the only person to use the aircraft - they are available to other government depts and heads but when in use as AF1, they carry staff other government officials as well as the press corps.......................it's not just 1 guy rattling around in a 747.....................and it's not your standard 747 either - hence the cost.

    Info on the unit responsible;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/89th_Airlift_Wing
  • DotheboyshallDotheboyshall Posts: 40,583
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    The President is not the only person to use the aircraft - they are available to other government depts and heads but when in use as AF1, they carry staff other government officials as well as the press corps
    Can you imagine trump sharing a plane with the riff raff of the press. He'll probably insist on upgrading his own plane so that "ordinary" people won't get anywhere near him - and charge the US taxpayer a pretty penny every time he uses it.

    He's just following the tradition laid down by the 1st President who declined a salary but accepted expenses - which brought him more money than a salary would have. I wouldn't be surprised if trump charges the US government for the toilet paper he uses
  • duckymallardduckymallard Posts: 13,936
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    Can you imagine trump sharing a plane with the riff raff of the press. He'll probably insist on upgrading his own plane so that "ordinary" people won't get anywhere near him - and charge the US taxpayer a pretty penny every time he uses it.

    He's just following the tradition laid down by the 1st President who declined a salary but accepted expenses - which brought him more money than a salary would have. I wouldn't be surprised if trump charges the US government for the toilet paper he uses

    The amount of shite he spouts, that'll bankrupt the nation!! :D
  • grassmarketgrassmarket Posts: 33,010
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    Remember when everyone was saying the moron Trump was a moron for saying that the Air Force One project was going to cost $4 Billion? Well, he was of course being a completely moronic moron as usual. Actual cost will be $4.2 billion.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4015320/Trump-RIGHT-Air-Force-One-Government-budget-documents-Boeing-program-slated-cost-4-billion.html

    What a moron!
  • fornowagainfornowagain Posts: 284
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    To be fair he did say 'more than' $4 Billion.
  • batdude_uk1batdude_uk1 Posts: 78,722
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    The amount of shite he spouts, that'll bankrupt the nation!! :D

    Ahh I see you have seen that episode of The Simpsons, where he leaves the country bankrupt, this must be how he did it! :D
  • paulschapmanpaulschapman Posts: 35,536
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    Remember when everyone was saying the moron Trump was a moron for saying that the Air Force One project was going to cost $4 Billion? Well, he was of course being a completely moronic moron as usual. Actual cost will be $4.2 billion.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4015320/Trump-RIGHT-Air-Force-One-Government-budget-documents-Boeing-program-slated-cost-4-billion.html

    What a moron!

    Clearly Trump does not do irony. The figures are allocated rather than spent, and you only have to see how money was spent in the Trump Taj Mahal Hotel to see that he knows next to nothing about controlling costs.

    But then I suppose if you don't pay your contractors that could be construed as controlling costs
  • grassmarketgrassmarket Posts: 33,010
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    Clearly Trump does not do irony. The figures are allocated rather than spent,

    Which is how he knows that it's a good idea to cancel now and renegotiate, before any airframes start getting built.
  • njpnjp Posts: 27,583
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    Which is how he knows that it's a good idea to cancel now and renegotiate, before any airframes start getting built.
    What would Trump - a man who mostly knows how to make himself rich by declaring his businesses bankrupt or forcing other businesses into bankruptcy - know about the process of designing and building such highly specialised aircraft?
  • grassmarketgrassmarket Posts: 33,010
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    njp wrote: »
    What would Trump - a man who mostly knows how to make himself rich by declaring his businesses bankrupt or forcing other businesses into bankruptcy - know about the process of designing and building such highly specialised aircraft?

    I suppose he must have learned a bit because he personally owns four custom built aircraft, each of which has been designed and built to his specifications. You might have seen photographs of them at some point during the last 18 months, it was hardly kept a secret. Earlier in his business career, he owned an airline.

    But of course Barack Obama would have known everything there is to know about aircraft design and economics, what with his having been a part-time classroom assistant lecturer in law at the University of Chicago for three years.
  • paulschapmanpaulschapman Posts: 35,536
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    Which is how he knows that it's a good idea to cancel now and renegotiate, before any airframes start getting built.

    Almost by definition costs cannot be out of control, since this is an estimate of what the costs will be.

    This is a man who has no problem wasting public money insisting he still should live in the middle of New York rather than the White House and is now complaining about costs in a project that has not even started. It is worth noting that the White House is not just a home, but the Presidents Office (and that of the First Lady) are also there - so is he going to waste more money as people try to communicate with him, or is he going to move the whole thing to New York!

    Nor do I think he knows squat about designing a complex aeroplane such as Air Force One in order to base what the costs should be.

    This is precisely what it looks like - another typical knee jerk reaction because someone had the temerity to say that the Donald might actually be wrong.
  • paulschapmanpaulschapman Posts: 35,536
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    But of course Barack Obama would have known everything there is to know about aircraft design and economics, what with his having been a part-time classroom assistant lecturer in law at the University of Chicago for three years.

    Barack Obama would not have needed to know the detail - the specification would be drawn up prior and anyway - part of those costs are for determining exactly what is wanted.
  • DotheboyshallDotheboyshall Posts: 40,583
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    It's an easy target for trump, it looks as if he's doing something, but all it does is move the costs to the next President.

    And of course trump will never fly in it as it won't be ready till he's long gone, so what's the point anyway.
  • NilremNilrem Posts: 6,938
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    I suppose he must have learned a bit because he personally owns four custom built aircraft, each of which has been designed and built to his specifications. You might have seen photographs of them at some point during the last 18 months, it was hardly kept a secret. Earlier in his business career, he owned an airline.
    .

    Trump's aircraft are not custom built, and his airline used bog standard off the shelf aircraft that were from memory leased (it also went bust after about 3 years).

    His aircraft are custom furnished, something that virtually every aircraft sold is, he hasn't had anything done to the airframe, electronics or layout that isn't allowed for as part of the normal fitting out process as every single airline in the world tends to customise the interiors of their aircraft to a degree (number of seats/style of seating, colours, entertainment systems are all utterly standard choices like the trim on your new car).
    To give you and idea of what I mean, some commercial aircraft can have their seating pulled out and replaced in a couple of days to completely change the layout of the cabin (from memory they often use a similar similar system to what is found in things like minibuses to allow for changes in seating/use), so an aircraft might be outfitted for passengers but if it's sold it can have the seating removed with ease (or put back in with different seats).

    On the other hand Air Force one is effectively a redesign of the airframe, akin to what happened when Boeing took the standard 747 and built the long body variant (or possibly a better example would be the AWACS).
    Such new airframe variants tend to cost hundreds of millions just for design/testing, usually spread across every aircraft made using that new design (and often across other variants if a design feature is reused).

    Saying that Trump knows the cost of a truly custom aircraft because he has owned a couple outfitted to his (lack of) taste and ran a failure of an airline is like saying that Jim the Cabby knows how much it costs to build a new design of car using the chassis of an Astra and get it past type approval because he owns a bunch of cabs and has blinged up his BMW with a body kit and alloy wheels.

    Simply doing the testing for any minor modifications to the airframe on a passenger carrying aircraft is expensive, doing major modifications is eye wateringly expensive, let alone outfitting the aircraft with the necessary equipment for the presidents aircraft.
    Fitting something like a mid air refuelling system to an airframe would come under "major modification" (new opening in the skin, significant potential issues regarding the fuel line to the tanks for example).

    It's not a job of simply fitting the likes of the communications gear any old way with spliced wiring like you can get away with on a car stereo, every system fitted has to be tested fully to make sure it doesn't interfere with the aircraft's flight systems, and even things like wiring runs have to be done with extreme care to ensure no rubbing that'll wear the insulation.
    Then there are the costs of the actual added equipment itself, military grade gear is far more expensive that normal stuff even on a like for like basis, and the stuff in Air Force 1 is pretty much a complete airborne military control centre.
  • grassmarketgrassmarket Posts: 33,010
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    Nilrem wrote: »

    On the other hand Air Force one is effectively a redesign of the airframe, akin to what happened when Boeing took the standard 747 and built the long body variant (or possibly a better example would be the AWACS).
    .

    So what he is saying is don't bother doing all the fancy exotic stuff, just give us a bog standard plane with a custom interior and secure communications built in at a quarter of the price.
  • njpnjp Posts: 27,583
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    I suppose he must have learned a bit because he personally owns four custom built aircraft, each of which has been designed and built to his specifications.
    Specifying a bit of gold bling for the bathrooms in his usual vulgarian display of dictator chic does not make Trump an expert in the anti-missile defences, robust military communications systems and mid-air refuelling capability (for example) required in Airforce One. How extraordinary that you imagine it would!

    Trump the aircraft designer. You couldn't make it up. Oh no, wait... You just did.
  • DotheboyshallDotheboyshall Posts: 40,583
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    So what he is saying is don't bother doing all the fancy exotic stuff, just give us a bog standard plane with a custom interior and secure communications built in at a quarter of the price.

    Don't protect it from EMP, don't give it multiple power supplies, don't give it any protection from missiles, don't bomb proof the hold and cabin, don't give it flight refueling ability...
  • mimik1ukmimik1uk Posts: 46,701
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    Don't protect it from EMP, don't give it multiple power supplies, don't give it any protection from missiles, don't bomb proof the hold and cabin, don't give it flight refueling ability...

    i'm sure he wont care if its a minimal spec, he wont be flying in it
  • duckymallardduckymallard Posts: 13,936
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    So what he is saying is don't bother doing all the fancy exotic stuff, just give us a bog standard plane with a custom interior and secure communications built in at a quarter of the price.

    Leaving it wide open to attack - because the bog standard aircraft has no defensive systems, no EMP protection, no mid-air refuelling capability.

    Soon as someone sits the fool down and explains how he'll be putting himself at risk, he'll soon be wanting all the bells and whistles added.

    Damn - beaten to it :D
  • NilremNilrem Posts: 6,938
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    mimik1uk wrote: »
    i'm sure he wont care if its a minimal spec, he wont be flying in it

    And that's the thing.

    He'll happily fly in the current (30 year old) Air Force one craft once it's pointed out to him that all that expensive and "unnecessary" gubbins could be all that stands between him and one of his ex supporters who is a little annoyed at his broken promises, but as he won't see the benefit of the new aircraft it can be cancelled.

    I suspect he's sore that he's having to go from his flying ego trip/advert to one that isn't going to be advertising his business, and is actually an older version of the plane.
    The answer would probably be to tell him the'll be called Trump 1 :p
  • mooxmoox Posts: 18,880
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    Tassium wrote: »
    Boeing are the ones lying, by omission:

    "We are currently under contract for $170 million to help determine the capabilities of these complex military aircraft that serve the unique requirements of the President of the United States. We look forward to working with the U.S. Air Force on subsequent phases of the program allowing us to deliver the best planes for the President at the best value for the American taxpayer."

    http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2016-12-06-Boeing-Statement-on-Air-Force-One

    That's $170m just for the assessment stage! The actual programme will be billions.

    They carefully avoid mentioning that bit in their media counter-strike.

    Are they lying? Boeing presumably hasn't got the contract to build the damn things yet. They're not going to mention the cost of something that they haven't yet been told to do.

    So what if it's billions? It's a bespoke plane with a lifetime of several decades. In terms of American defence spending (even just one year) it's basically insignificant.
  • mooxmoox Posts: 18,880
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    I suppose he must have learned a bit because he personally owns four custom built aircraft, each of which has been designed and built to his specifications. You might have seen photographs of them at some point during the last 18 months, it was hardly kept a secret. Earlier in his business career, he owned an airline.

    I think his current plane is an old junker of a Boeing, isn't it? A cast-off from an airline because they decided it wasn't cost effective to use it.

    "built to his specifications" - bit of a difference between the arduous decision of what type of wood you want for the conference table on your new plane, or how big the bed should be, and that of actual aerospace engineering.
    ]Earlier in his business career, he owned an airline.

    The one that never turned a profit, because Trump totally failed to understand the market, and had to be forcibly sold off by his creditors?

    I'm sure he knows a lot about buying planes.
    But of course Barack Obama would have known everything there is to know about aircraft design and economics, what with his having been a part-time classroom assistant lecturer in law at the University of Chicago for three years.

    As opposed to Trump's substandard grades and an "MBA"?

    Trump, like Obama, has access to actual experts in procurement and engineering. Perhaps they should make the call on this.
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