I think ultimately Mary Whitehouse was to blame. She orchestrated a campaign against the show back in its best days in the early Tom Baker years (the Holmes/Hinchliffe era) and forced them to change the very things that worked best in the show. It never really re-gained those heights again.
Michael Grade is also very much to blame. He had it in for the show (and had a personal grudge against Colin Baker). Many of the criticisms he still makes of the show during the 80s were the problems he himself caused by starving the show of funds.
I don't blame JNT. Yes, much of what he did in the later years of the show didn't work out and he really sgould have moved on. I think he knew this himself and wanted to move on, but he knew that if he were to do so, Grade would take the opportunity to axe it permanently. Also, many of his mistakes were the results of him trying to give the fans what they said they wanted (a mistake RTD and Moffat have been determined not to repeat)
I've never really understood the point of expecting people to watch something they don't like just because they're fans. I like star trek very much. From the seventies reruns of tos and the animated series, the movies and next gen etc. But didn't enjoy Enterprise and didn't bother to watch it much - actually yawned through much of voyager now I think of it. ( What I didn't do, I should add, is watch every episode then bitch about the production team and actors on trek forums! . I'm just a fan of these things. I don't own them or have any responsibility to maintain them. I like to think the money I spend on Who dvds encourages then to make more. But if the dvds were crap (they're not), I wouldn't feel obliged to buy them.
But my main point is that for shows on mainstream mass audience channels , particularly back before multi channels, a few tens or hundreds of thousands of people tuning in come what may isn't going to turn the tide. the show was in all sorts of bother.
Sorry - sounds like I didn't like your post. I did. but it made me think.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying fans SHOULD have watched it... but I am saying they are to blame. Ultimatly, if they had watched it wouldn't have got canceled
In my eyes they had two choices; watch it and hope it gets betterm don't watch it and accept with nobody watching it would just get scrapped. Which it did.
It's like the people who moan about Tesco killing off local butchers, etc. Then when you ask them if they go to their local butcher for their meat they reply "oh no, I buy mine at Tesco, much cheaper!". You can't have your cake and eat it.
If they question was who is to blame for Doctor Who becoming rubbish towards the end... then that's a different question with a different answer. But it was who is to blame for it being scrapped... ultimatly it's the people who didn't watch it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying fans SHOULD have watched it... but I am saying they are to blame. Ultimatly, if they had watched it wouldn't have got canceled
In my eyes they had two choices; watch it and hope it gets betterm don't watch it and accept with nobody watching it would just get scrapped. Which it did.
It's like the people who moan about Tesco killing off local butchers, etc. Then when you ask them if they go to their local butcher for their meat they reply "oh no, I buy mine at Tesco, much cheaper!". You can't have your cake and eat it.
If they question was who is to blame for Doctor Who becoming rubbish towards the end... then that's a different question with a different answer. But it was who is to blame for it being scrapped... ultimatly it's the people who didn't watch it.
But you can't really blame people for going to Tesco if the local butchers meat is bad. even if Tesco meat is mostly bland pap. (actually Tesco meat, in my experience, is mostly awful. but not rotten ).
I don't really understand your point. We could equally say that any show which sheds viewers was the victim of all the people who didn't watch it (or watched it and then stopped watching it). Where does this get us in understanding why they didn't watch it?
The argument about watching it in the hope it gets better (fearing cancellation purely for shedding viewers) assumes that a hugely significant number of viewers are such keen fans that they think about their tv in this way. For the most part the very keen fans are massively outnumbered by less ardent viewers (who may be avid likers of the show but aren't as devoted as the minority).
But you can't really blame people for going to Tesco if the local butchers meat is bad. even if Tesco meat is mostly bland pap. (actually Tesco meat, in my experience, is mostly awful. but not rotten ).
I don't really understand your point. We could equally say that any show which sheds viewers was the victim of all the people who didn't watch it (or watched it and then stopped watching it). Where does this get us in understanding why they didn't watch it?
The argument about watching it in the hope it gets better (fearing cancellation purely for shedding viewers) assumes that a hugely significant number of viewers are such keen fans that they think about their tv in this way. For the most part the very keen fans are massively outnumbered by less ardent viewers (who may be avid likers of the show but aren't as devoted as the minority).
That is part of my point. Almost all shows that get scrapped do so because of lack of viewers. Again, not saying fans SHOULD watch it, but as the question was "Who was most to blame for getting Doctor Who axed in 1989?" then to me that's simply the people who didn't watch it.
In response to the "But you can't really blame people for going to Tesco if the local butchers meat is bad." No you can't, but likewise you can't moan when the butcher goes out of buisness when you don't shop there.
Again I'll say if the question was "Why didn't people watch Doctor Who in the last few series?" (the equivilent of "Why was the meat at the local butchers so bad?") then it gets a different answer, but that wasn't the question so I stick by my answer that it's the people who didn't watch.
OK. No worries. We agree on that. The shedding of viewers didn't help. Although as I understand it, Doctor Who viewing figures did remain stubbornly high given the context of all that was thrown at it. Viewing figures are only part of the story.
BBC management could have changed the production team- brought in people from outside the BBC even; shock! horror!- but they just didn't want to know any more; no vision, you see. It's not as if a series such as Sapphire and Steel had needed 'big money' spending on its basic production (if not its lead actors), so why should Doctor Who have been that different?
In the end, though, production choices were made by the man in direct charge- for oh so long- JNT. He could have made different choices that produced a better 'product'. Managers would still have accepted a successful show, especially one that had critical success, as well as audience appeal.
That is part of my point. Almost all shows that get scrapped do so because of lack of viewers.
Yes you're right, but Neb's point remains pertinent in that if something is crap people shouldn't be expected to accept it. If the viewing figures were down, why wasn't life injected into it with vital changes.
IMO the lack of viewers was engineered by those who wanted it axed. If you strangle the budget, mess with the format and schedule, you are going to get less viewing figures. Then BINGO - 'Sorry, its not popular anymore, we don't need it!
None of this is the fault of the fans. The fact that Doctor Who continued in Audio and literature demonstrates that, surely!
Garde and Powell. Alough if I really gave my personal feelings on what I think of these 2 scum still after all these years id probably get booted off here as I absolutely dispise them for ruining the show for me!
In the end, though, production choices were made by the man in direct charge- for oh so long- JNT. He could have made different choices that produced a better 'product'. Managers would still have accepted a successful show, especially one that had critical success, as well as audience appeal.
I chose JN-T too but it's a bit complex. I mean, it's fairly well-established that the BBC wouldn't let him move on when he wanted to, almost as if they were expecting him to turn out worse and worse stuff that they could justifiably cancel. If so, unfortunately, I don't think he disappointed them. I know lots of fans rave about Seasons 25 and 26. I think they were mediocre, the product of amateur writers who had good intentions but no real idea what they were doing because they had hardly any background in TV writing or, for that matter, much of real life. If they had really been all that good, I can't help but feel that Doctor Who would have been back a lot sooner, and some of them would still have been writing it.
I know lots of fans rave about Seasons 25 and 26. I think they were mediocre, the product of amateur writers who had good intentions but no real idea what they were doing because they had hardly any background in TV writing or, for that matter, much of real life. If they had really been all that good, I can't help but feel that Doctor Who would have been back a lot sooner, and some of them would still have been writing it.
I did think about putting Andrew Cartmel in as well as Saward, but then Saward has hardly copped any flak so far.
Steven calls it 'charmless' - but best to listen to it all in context.
I think he's talking about the period right up to the cancellation, McCoy era included, although the phrase "when the axe fell" is a bit ambiguous. But if he was referring to the whole 1985-89 period when he said it was "crashing and burning," I think he'd be right.
Yes you're right, but Neb's point remains pertinent in that if something is crap people shouldn't be expected to accept it. If the viewing figures were down, why wasn't life injected into it with vital changes.
IMO the lack of viewers was engineered by those who wanted it axed. If you strangle the budget, mess with the format and schedule, you are going to get less viewing figures. Then BINGO - 'Sorry, its not popular anymore, we don't need it!
None of this is the fault of the fans. The fact that Doctor Who continued in Audio and literature demonstrates that, surely!
In those days before catch up services, all you had the video player and I can't recall if they were about at that time. The show definitely lost a lot of viewers to Corrie in the last few years so if it's a straight choice between watching a popular soap that runs three times a week to one that shows once a week for 14 weeks out of 52 there would seem to be no choice.
There were other reasons for the viewer drop. I think only having 14 episodes a year rather the old 26 meant it wasn't on-air long enough to make an impact and the stigma from the hiatus probably played it's part as well.
Plus of course moving it to a Wednesday when people may still have been working rather than it's traditional Saturday teatime timeslot didn't help either.
They should have moved it to the 6pm slot on BBC2 and it would have fared pretty well there. It was obviously not bringing in the BBC1 primetime viewers any more, but it would have been ok on BBC2. Never really understood why they didn't do that.
In those days before catch up services, all you had the video player and I can't recall if they were about at that time. The show definitely lost a lot of viewers to Corrie in the last few years so if it's a straight choice between watching a popular soap that runs three times a week to one that shows once a week for 14 weeks out of 52 there would seem to be no choice.
There were other reasons for the viewer drop. I think only having 14 episodes a year rather the old 26 meant it wasn't on-air long enough to make an impact and the stigma from the hiatus probably played it's part as well.
Plus of course moving it to a Wednesday when people may still have been working rather than it's traditional Saturday teatime timeslot didn't help either.
Wasn't Corrie only on once a week back then?
Ironic isn't it that Phil Collinson moved to the programme that effectively killed the Classic DW series!:D
Yes you're right, but Neb's point remains pertinent in that if something is crap people shouldn't be expected to accept it. If the viewing figures were down, why wasn't life injected into it with vital changes.
IMO the lack of viewers was engineered by those who wanted it axed. If you strangle the budget, mess with the format and schedule, you are going to get less viewing figures. Then BINGO - 'Sorry, its not popular anymore, we don't need it!
None of this is the fault of the fans. The fact that Doctor Who continued in Audio and literature demonstrates that, surely!
As I said, I'm not arguing agains that, indeed I agree with it My point originally was that people not watching it was almost certainly the reason it was ditched, even if there are reasons why people didn't watch.
Thinking how best to explain. Ok, let's say our car has just stopped working, the question being asked by the AA is "Why has your car stopped?". The answer? There's no petrol in it. That's simply it. However, the reason there's no fuel it in is because I was a wally and forgot to fill up. To me the question being asked in this thread was akin to "Why has your car stopped?" and so I gave my answer to it. However I do agree there are reasons why people turned away from it.
It's probably me just being pedantic mind, as I do agree with what you and Neb are saying But I stick by what I orginally said
Edit:
N.B. I'll leave it there (unless directly asked a question) as I fear I'm not coming across to well
Ironic isn't it that Phil Collinson moved to the programme that effectively killed the Classic DW series!:D
No, it was on twice, Mondays and Weds. For my sins I did watch it for a while(mostly because my parents watched it) it used to be on straight after Doctor Who time-wise during Davison's Era if it fell on the right day.
I didn't know about Phil Collinson but yes, it does seem a tad ironic!
The blame lies mainly with Grade and Powell, between them they both put it on hiatus, which damaged the reputation of the show and then ultimately axed it in 89.
JNT should have left at the end of season 20, three seasons was enough from him, and had he left then I think he would have been looked upon favourably for his management of Tom Bakers departure and Davison's succesfull introduction. All in All though JNT was out of his depth and should have been allowed to move on, Grade should have replaced him and Saward after season 22. What was the point in putting the show on hiatus and saying changes needed to be made and then keeping the production team on! Silly if you ask me.
Episodes like Warriors of the Deep, The Twin Dillema, The Two Doctors, Timelash, TRIAL OF A TIMELORD, Time and The Rani, Silver Nemesis, The Happiness Patrol all contributed to the show's demise and the blame for these stories going out lies firmly at JNT and Saward's door.
What makes this so complex though is the fact that had JNT left the show at the end of season 23/ 24/ 25 the show would have been axed much sooner, so although he is partially to blame for the show's demise he also kept it going once it had reached the point of no return.
Episodes like Warriors of the Deep, The Twin Dillema, The Two Doctors, Timelash, TRIAL OF A TIMELORD, Time and The Rani, Silver Nemesis, The Happiness Patrol all contributed to the show's demise and the blame for these stories going out lies firmly at JNT and Saward's door.
JN-T and Andrew Cartmel's door, in the case of Time and the Rani, Silver Nemesis and The Happiness Patrol...
After the suspension in 1985 and Colin Baker's subsequent sacking, Doctor Who really needed people who weren't either total amateurs or washed-up in charge to get in back on its feet. The BBC got that right in 2004 by giving the top job to someone with a proven track record of making successful and critically-acclaimed TV. In 1986 they obviously weren't bothered who was running the show.
Comments
Michael Grade is also very much to blame. He had it in for the show (and had a personal grudge against Colin Baker). Many of the criticisms he still makes of the show during the 80s were the problems he himself caused by starving the show of funds.
I don't blame JNT. Yes, much of what he did in the later years of the show didn't work out and he really sgould have moved on. I think he knew this himself and wanted to move on, but he knew that if he were to do so, Grade would take the opportunity to axe it permanently. Also, many of his mistakes were the results of him trying to give the fans what they said they wanted (a mistake RTD and Moffat have been determined not to repeat)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying fans SHOULD have watched it... but I am saying they are to blame. Ultimatly, if they had watched it wouldn't have got canceled
In my eyes they had two choices; watch it and hope it gets betterm don't watch it and accept with nobody watching it would just get scrapped. Which it did.
It's like the people who moan about Tesco killing off local butchers, etc. Then when you ask them if they go to their local butcher for their meat they reply "oh no, I buy mine at Tesco, much cheaper!". You can't have your cake and eat it.
If they question was who is to blame for Doctor Who becoming rubbish towards the end... then that's a different question with a different answer. But it was who is to blame for it being scrapped... ultimatly it's the people who didn't watch it.
But you can't really blame people for going to Tesco if the local butchers meat is bad. even if Tesco meat is mostly bland pap. (actually Tesco meat, in my experience, is mostly awful. but not rotten
I don't really understand your point. We could equally say that any show which sheds viewers was the victim of all the people who didn't watch it (or watched it and then stopped watching it). Where does this get us in understanding why they didn't watch it?
The argument about watching it in the hope it gets better (fearing cancellation purely for shedding viewers) assumes that a hugely significant number of viewers are such keen fans that they think about their tv in this way. For the most part the very keen fans are massively outnumbered by less ardent viewers (who may be avid likers of the show but aren't as devoted as the minority).
That is part of my point. Almost all shows that get scrapped do so because of lack of viewers. Again, not saying fans SHOULD watch it, but as the question was "Who was most to blame for getting Doctor Who axed in 1989?" then to me that's simply the people who didn't watch it.
In response to the "But you can't really blame people for going to Tesco if the local butchers meat is bad." No you can't, but likewise you can't moan when the butcher goes out of buisness when you don't shop there.
Again I'll say if the question was "Why didn't people watch Doctor Who in the last few series?" (the equivilent of "Why was the meat at the local butchers so bad?") then it gets a different answer, but that wasn't the question so I stick by my answer that it's the people who didn't watch.
BBC management could have changed the production team- brought in people from outside the BBC even; shock! horror!- but they just didn't want to know any more; no vision, you see. It's not as if a series such as Sapphire and Steel had needed 'big money' spending on its basic production (if not its lead actors), so why should Doctor Who have been that different?
In the end, though, production choices were made by the man in direct charge- for oh so long- JNT. He could have made different choices that produced a better 'product'. Managers would still have accepted a successful show, especially one that had critical success, as well as audience appeal.
Yes you're right, but Neb's point remains pertinent in that if something is crap people shouldn't be expected to accept it. If the viewing figures were down, why wasn't life injected into it with vital changes.
IMO the lack of viewers was engineered by those who wanted it axed. If you strangle the budget, mess with the format and schedule, you are going to get less viewing figures. Then BINGO - 'Sorry, its not popular anymore, we don't need it!
None of this is the fault of the fans. The fact that Doctor Who continued in Audio and literature demonstrates that, surely!
I chose JN-T too but it's a bit complex. I mean, it's fairly well-established that the BBC wouldn't let him move on when he wanted to, almost as if they were expecting him to turn out worse and worse stuff that they could justifiably cancel. If so, unfortunately, I don't think he disappointed them. I know lots of fans rave about Seasons 25 and 26. I think they were mediocre, the product of amateur writers who had good intentions but no real idea what they were doing because they had hardly any background in TV writing or, for that matter, much of real life. If they had really been all that good, I can't help but feel that Doctor Who would have been back a lot sooner, and some of them would still have been writing it.
I did think about putting Andrew Cartmel in as well as Saward, but then Saward has hardly copped any flak so far.
I think he's talking about the period right up to the cancellation, McCoy era included, although the phrase "when the axe fell" is a bit ambiguous. But if he was referring to the whole 1985-89 period when he said it was "crashing and burning," I think he'd be right.
I think Pip and Jane might have got a few votes:D
Crap writers, crap ideas and admitted that they had never even seen an episode of DW before writing their first drivel!
In those days before catch up services, all you had the video player and I can't recall if they were about at that time. The show definitely lost a lot of viewers to Corrie in the last few years so if it's a straight choice between watching a popular soap that runs three times a week to one that shows once a week for 14 weeks out of 52 there would seem to be no choice.
There were other reasons for the viewer drop. I think only having 14 episodes a year rather the old 26 meant it wasn't on-air long enough to make an impact and the stigma from the hiatus probably played it's part as well.
Plus of course moving it to a Wednesday when people may still have been working rather than it's traditional Saturday teatime timeslot didn't help either.
At least JNT didn't appoint them as script-editors!
BUT I wouldn't have put it past him!
Wasn't Corrie only on once a week back then?
Ironic isn't it that Phil Collinson moved to the programme that effectively killed the Classic DW series!:D
Unless, of course, he has returned in a regenerated form!:eek:
RTD worked on it too, thereby underlining the foolishness of scheduling against each other - some people wer avid fans of both.
As I said, I'm not arguing agains that, indeed I agree with it
Thinking how best to explain. Ok, let's say our car has just stopped working, the question being asked by the AA is "Why has your car stopped?". The answer? There's no petrol in it. That's simply it. However, the reason there's no fuel it in is because I was a wally and forgot to fill up. To me the question being asked in this thread was akin to "Why has your car stopped?" and so I gave my answer to it. However I do agree there are reasons why people turned away from it.
It's probably me just being pedantic mind, as I do agree with what you and Neb are saying
Edit:
N.B. I'll leave it there (unless directly asked a question) as I fear I'm not coming across to well
No, it was on twice, Mondays and Weds. For my sins I did watch it for a while(mostly because my parents watched it) it used to be on straight after Doctor Who time-wise during Davison's Era if it fell on the right day.
I didn't know about Phil Collinson but yes, it does seem a tad ironic!
No worries. I get you.
JNT should have left at the end of season 20, three seasons was enough from him, and had he left then I think he would have been looked upon favourably for his management of Tom Bakers departure and Davison's succesfull introduction. All in All though JNT was out of his depth and should have been allowed to move on, Grade should have replaced him and Saward after season 22. What was the point in putting the show on hiatus and saying changes needed to be made and then keeping the production team on! Silly if you ask me.
Episodes like Warriors of the Deep, The Twin Dillema, The Two Doctors, Timelash, TRIAL OF A TIMELORD, Time and The Rani, Silver Nemesis, The Happiness Patrol all contributed to the show's demise and the blame for these stories going out lies firmly at JNT and Saward's door.
What makes this so complex though is the fact that had JNT left the show at the end of season 23/ 24/ 25 the show would have been axed much sooner, so although he is partially to blame for the show's demise he also kept it going once it had reached the point of no return.
JN-T and Andrew Cartmel's door, in the case of Time and the Rani, Silver Nemesis and The Happiness Patrol...
After the suspension in 1985 and Colin Baker's subsequent sacking, Doctor Who really needed people who weren't either total amateurs or washed-up in charge to get in back on its feet. The BBC got that right in 2004 by giving the top job to someone with a proven track record of making successful and critically-acclaimed TV. In 1986 they obviously weren't bothered who was running the show.