I've explained this a million times; the dalek MUTANTS are what's wrong in ViOTD -- the mutants were different to the new paradigm mutants. The Daleks don't give a toss about casings unless they're trying to distinguish rank.
The mutants in the bronze casings in AoTD were the same as the mutants in the NPD casings.
Perhaps not in the context of the episode did they intend to kill and destroy, but 'victory' seemed a every big word to be parading around. It just felt a little bit forced in delivery when Matt had said that they'd won. I can see where they were coming from, and it was only a minor niggle I had.
As has been said, their plan worked perfectly. They got everything the needed from the Doctor, and retreated to build their forces. It was certainly a victory, not a vanquishing.
Besides, the word is mostly used as an allusion to the WW2 setting, 'V for Victory', dig for victory, VE Day, all that stuff.
I've explained this a million times; the dalek MUTANTS are what's wrong in ViOTD -- the mutants were different to the new paradigm mutants. The Daleks don't give a toss about casings unless they're trying to distinguish rank.
The mutants in the bronze casings in AoTD were the same as the mutants in the NPD casings.
While that may well be the explanation it could also be that there was a major Dalek Civil War* which ended with the two sides agreeing to Peace and the formation of a Dalek Parliment (not seen in Dalek History before).
I think that this is one of the few recent Dalek stories that COULD have been better as a two-parter, to be honest. Many of the RTD-era Dalek epiosdes felt a bit like they were given 90 minutes because, well, Daleks "need a big run-time, don't they? It's an event, isn't it...", and then they worked backwards towards coming up with enough plot to fill those two episodes. VotD however felt like it was packed a bit too tight, I felt - amongst other rushed elements, the space spitfires (which were f***ing cool as far as I'm concerned, even if they were as daft as a brush) could have proved to be a very epic finale, given more time for a big battle scene - as it stands it felt like a glimpse at a big set piece, rather than a set piece in and of itself, and while the Daleks were obviously going to be bad, more fun could have been had building the tension about the Ironsides: really go out of the way to make them seem good, and make The Doctor seem like a zealot in not believing it.
Still, I did thoroughly enjoy the episode, there's lots to love about it. The jammy dodger, the spacefires (totally copyrighting that phrase, nearly three years later, haha...), the look on Matt's face as he lamps Bracewell...
And, as if admitting to liking the spacefires (I'M GONNA MAKE IT STICK, DAMMIT!!!!!) wasn't forum suicide enough for one post... I actually like the colourful Daleks. Gives me a nice nostalgic glow, since they remind me so much of the wonderful TVC21 strips...
All of this! Except the bit about TVC21 strips, because I don't know what they are. But aside that? Every single word!
A decent episode, and I will never understand what everyone's problem with the new daleks was, but... so faintly sketched. There's enough interesting ideas for a great two parter, but as a one-parter, they're practically jotted down and then on to the next one.
Making the Doctor seem like a zealot for believing the daleks are evil is a great story, and it would've been the perfect moment to tell it, what with the new companion. Because to her, they're friendly robot butlers. She trusts him, but... look! They're fine! Maybe it's just the same design. Maybe he's wrong on this one. That would infuriate the Doctor. And he wouldn't, for once, have anyone to vouch for him. The companion wouldn't be going, "Yeah, they're pretty much evil" - there's no-one to talk to, no-one who understands, no-one who can see it, even though it's so obvious to him. That's a great story. Exposes the Doctor. Might get him to doubt it - might even get us to doubt it. Maybe these ones have turned over a new leaf.
What we got was fine. Good. Enjoyed it. I like Victory of the Daleks. But the two-parter this story could've been - it could've been magnificent. Great elements, great promise, fell slightly short. But still pleasant.
I've explained this a million times; the dalek MUTANTS are what's wrong in ViOTD -- the mutants were different to the new paradigm mutants. The Daleks don't give a toss about casings unless they're trying to distinguish rank.
The mutants in the bronze casings in AoTD were the same as the mutants in the NPD casings.
Is that an assumption or is it somewhere in the show? If it's in the show, what's the explanation for them now being the same inside in AotD?
BTW, I don't think it's sufficient explanation anyway. The NPD Dalek (casing, if you insist) is better technology (logical assumption) than RTD casings, so why wouldn't a ruthless, psychopathic creature use it to its advantage and wipe out inferiors, other Daleks included.
Is that an assumption or is it somewhere in the show? If it's in the show, what's the explanation for them now being the same inside in AotD?
BTW, I don't think it's sufficient explanation anyway. The NPD Dalek (casing, if you insist) is better technology (logical assumption) than RTD casings, so why wouldn't a ruthless, psychopathic creature use it to its advantage and wipe out inferiors, other Daleks included.
BTW, No need to shout.
I'm pretty sure it's in the show. I don't have the box set to hand, but I seem to remember the entire point of the deception, the only reason the daleks ever disguised themselves as ironsides in the first place, was because the progenitor didn't recognise them as real daleks. They needed the Doctor's testimony to prove they were any kind of dalek at all.
New paradigm daleks might not be better technology. Might be different technology. Situational, like the special weapons dalek. Or, maybe if one kind is better than the other, the bronze daleks are more easily mass produced.
I thought it made perfect sense that the new Daleks destroyed the old. They have been known to kill other Daleks not like them before, (such as the humanoid ones in The Evil Of The Daleks) This new breed of Daleks would see any other sort of Daleks as not like them, hence they would destroy them. It matches in with the Dalek philosophy of not liking anything that isn't them.
But there was someone who was very definitely NOT Dalek and their mortal enemy standing right in front of them and they reserved their guns for a subservient next-best-thing-to-Dalek seemed mighty odd, particularly, as I said before, when they've gladly used pig slaves and Ogrons as their servants before.
But there was someone who was very definitely NOT Dalek and their mortal enemy standing right in front of them and they reserved their guns for a subservient next-best-thing-to-Dalek seemed mighty odd, particularly, as I said before, when they've gladly used pig slaves and Ogrons as their servants before.
Yes, that old chestnut about how many times they could have killed The Doctor over the years remains. And as i said in a previous post how they didn't detect the jammie dodger sooner is also a bit of a mystery.
As for Daleks using slaves, they've been doing that as far back as The Dalek Invasion Of Earth. They obviously don't kill other species when they need them or are part of their plans. Otherwise they exterminate on sight, even their own.
The main difference is that the subordinate Daleks were much more intelligent than Pig Slaves or Ogrons, and had they escaped Extermination they may have been tempted to rebel.
Comments
The mutants in the bronze casings in AoTD were the same as the mutants in the NPD casings.
As has been said, their plan worked perfectly. They got everything the needed from the Doctor, and retreated to build their forces. It was certainly a victory, not a vanquishing.
Besides, the word is mostly used as an allusion to the WW2 setting, 'V for Victory', dig for victory, VE Day, all that stuff.
While that may well be the explanation it could also be that there was a major Dalek Civil War* which ended with the two sides agreeing to Peace and the formation of a Dalek Parliment (not seen in Dalek History before).
*Shown at the Doctor Who Experience I believe.
All of this! Except the bit about TVC21 strips, because I don't know what they are. But aside that? Every single word!
A decent episode, and I will never understand what everyone's problem with the new daleks was, but... so faintly sketched. There's enough interesting ideas for a great two parter, but as a one-parter, they're practically jotted down and then on to the next one.
Making the Doctor seem like a zealot for believing the daleks are evil is a great story, and it would've been the perfect moment to tell it, what with the new companion. Because to her, they're friendly robot butlers. She trusts him, but... look! They're fine! Maybe it's just the same design. Maybe he's wrong on this one. That would infuriate the Doctor. And he wouldn't, for once, have anyone to vouch for him. The companion wouldn't be going, "Yeah, they're pretty much evil" - there's no-one to talk to, no-one who understands, no-one who can see it, even though it's so obvious to him. That's a great story. Exposes the Doctor. Might get him to doubt it - might even get us to doubt it. Maybe these ones have turned over a new leaf.
What we got was fine. Good. Enjoyed it. I like Victory of the Daleks. But the two-parter this story could've been - it could've been magnificent. Great elements, great promise, fell slightly short. But still pleasant.
Is that an assumption or is it somewhere in the show? If it's in the show, what's the explanation for them now being the same inside in AotD?
BTW, I don't think it's sufficient explanation anyway. The NPD Dalek (casing, if you insist) is better technology (logical assumption) than RTD casings, so why wouldn't a ruthless, psychopathic creature use it to its advantage and wipe out inferiors, other Daleks included.
BTW, No need to shout.
I'm pretty sure it's in the show. I don't have the box set to hand, but I seem to remember the entire point of the deception, the only reason the daleks ever disguised themselves as ironsides in the first place, was because the progenitor didn't recognise them as real daleks. They needed the Doctor's testimony to prove they were any kind of dalek at all.
New paradigm daleks might not be better technology. Might be different technology. Situational, like the special weapons dalek. Or, maybe if one kind is better than the other, the bronze daleks are more easily mass produced.
But there was someone who was very definitely NOT Dalek and their mortal enemy standing right in front of them and they reserved their guns for a subservient next-best-thing-to-Dalek seemed mighty odd, particularly, as I said before, when they've gladly used pig slaves and Ogrons as their servants before.
Yes, that old chestnut about how many times they could have killed The Doctor over the years remains. And as i said in a previous post how they didn't detect the jammie dodger sooner is also a bit of a mystery.
As for Daleks using slaves, they've been doing that as far back as The Dalek Invasion Of Earth. They obviously don't kill other species when they need them or are part of their plans. Otherwise they exterminate on sight, even their own.
It was only a minor thing... heck, I have the 'Daleks to Victory' t-shirt