I'd rather Doctor Who was funny, than scary, that way you can just shrug your shoulders at anything unbelievable and say "oh well, at least I'm laughing along at the stupid parts instead of them trying to make me think I should be believing in it!"
I'm afraid I think you're missing the point of Doctor Who in that case, which is that it's supposed to be a scary drama, not a comedy, and that's what Tom and Graham forgot too often while they were making the show in those years.
If you want daft, throw about comedy, try Monty Python.
I'm afraid I think you're missing the point of Doctor Who in that case, which is that it's supposed to be a scary drama, not a comedy, and that's what Tom and Graham forgot too often while they were making the show in those years.
If you want daft, throw about comedy, try Monty Python.
It's always had comedy though. Some of Hartnell's, Troughton's, Pertwee's and Tom's best moments as the Doctor were purely comedic ones.
It's always had comedy though. Some of Hartnell's, Troughton's, Pertwee's and Tom's best moments as the Doctor were purely comedic ones.
There's a difference between putting touches of comedy in the drama and letting the comedy become the dominant force in the show, which is what happened under Williams.
There's a difference between putting touches of comedy in the drama and letting the comedy become the dominant force in the show, which is what happened under Williams.
Maybe, but for a lot of people Tom Baker's portrayal of the Doctor is their favourite due to his comedic tendencies. Not me, I'm a Peter Davison man.
Yep, there's no doubt the BBC's attitude was a big factor in the show's decline in the latter part of the 80's. I think if it had the attitude it done today, JNT would have been let go when he wanted or replaced; there's no doubt keeping him on devoided the show of the radical fresh ideas it needed that would have come with a new producer.
The excreable Time and the Rani aside, I really didn't mind Season 24 all that much. I'd rather Colin Baker hadn't been fired (not because I have anything against Sylvester McCoy) and that they hadn't brought in that ghastly title sequence, but I basically found it inoffensive. In Seasons 25 and 26, when the series was supposedly starting to hit its stride again, I'd say that four of the stories were absolute stinkers and that the other four only looked good by comparison. But of course it didn't help that the BBC was clearly run by crass, vulgar populists obsessed with lowest common denominator garbage like soap operas and chat shows. If they'd had any interest in making Doctor Who a success instead of concocting reasons to cancel it, they would have replaced John Nathan-Turner with a successful, experienced producer and insisted on the writers being equally successful and experienced, as opposed to a clique of novices with little experience of anything except a few scriptwriting courses.
I agree with you about JNT as my post i've put again above highlights. There's no doubt in my mind that having the same Producer for all that time did the show no favours whatsoever. It's like if we had the same Doctor for nine years(came close with Tom Baker though!), it would start to get boring after a while. The show thrives on change and fresh blood(which is why I'm hoping Moffat will move on soon) and a new man at the top with fresh ideas will always give the show a lift.
I also agree that Colin Baker shouldn't have been fired. He was just hitting his stride in Season 23, I felt there was so much more to come from his Doctor. Whether he would have made Season 24 any better is open to debate, that really would have depended on whether JNT would have been allowed to leave at the end of the Trial Season as requested. As Colin Baker himself has said, it does seem odd you had a producer who wanted to leave and couldn't and a Doctor who wanted to stay but got fired!
I agree that series 24 wasn't all that bad - Time and the Rani was awful, but I liked Paradise Towers (Richard Briers' performance excepted) and Delta and the Bannermen was very enjoyable. Dragonfire wasn't much cop though.
I wonder which 4 you're putting in each category in the last two series? Personally, I thought Rembrance of the Daleks, The Curse of Fenric and Survival were really good. The Happiness Patrol was a good idea badly executed (and ruined by the inclusion of the unspeakable abomination that was the Kandyman). Both The Greatest Show in the Galaxy and Ghost Light were somewhat odd stories, but I liked them. Silver Nemesis and Battlefield were stinkers.
I will have to disagree with you both about Season 24. I do like Delta and The Bannermen and to a degree Dragonfire but Paradise Towers was up to two months ago the worst story of Doctor Who ever made. It's now been surpassed by The Rings Of Akhaten which plumbed even further depths with it's appalling-ness! I never thought Paradise Towers could be beaten for awfulness but that story proved all things are possible!
And Dave I do agree with you(for once!) about The Happiness Patrol. It was a good idea but as you say it's onscreen execution was horrid and garish. I think The Greatest Show In The Galaxy was okay but still a bit outlandish. Silver Nemesis I do actually enjoy. Like Time Flight, it may not be a brilliant plot but there is something enjoyable and appealing about it when watching it. I think it helps that it's so no wonderfully normal and more traditional Who compared to other stories in the McCoy Era.
I will have to disagree with you both about Season 24. I do like Delta and The Bannermen and to a degree Dragonfire but Paradise Towers was up to two months ago the worst story of Doctor Who ever made. It's now been surpassed by The Rings Of Akhaten which plumbed even further depths with it's appalling-ness! I never thought Paradise Towers could be beaten for awfulness but that story proved all things are possible!
I agree that Paradise Towers is an awful story but for the life of me I can't work out why so many people loath Rings.
I will say this though, if you didn't like Rings then at least it was over in one night. Four ruddy weeks we had to put up with the abomination that is Paradise Towers and it actually got worse as it went along.
I agree that Paradise Towers is an awful story but for the life of me I can't work out why so many people loath Rings.
I will say this though, if you didn't like Rings then at least it was over in one night. Four ruddy weeks we had to put up with the abomination that is Paradise Towers and it actually got worse as it went along.
I agree about the episode length, guess as with everything else it all comes down to taste and what people enjoy. I tend to say the same about The Caves Of Androzani which imo is one of the best Doctor Who stories ever, but I appreciate there are people out there who don't hold it in the same esteem as myself. The same goes with your opinion of Rings and every other Doctor Who story.
Maybe, but for a lot of people Tom Baker's portrayal of the Doctor is their favourite due to his comedic tendencies.
But, oddly enough, the polls of Tom's best stories are always dominated by the ones Hinchcliffe produced, not the ones Williams produced, which I think aptly demonstrates how Hinchcliffe did a better job of running the show, maintaining high story standards and keeping Tom under control.
But, oddly enough, the polls of Tom's best stories are always dominated by the ones Hinchcliffe produced, not the ones Williams produced, which I think aptly demonstrates how Hinchcliffe did a better job of running the show, maintaining high story standards and keeping Tom under control.
I think you're being a tad unfair to Williams! Yes his tenure injected more humour and less horror but in fairness to him and Baker, the BBC had been under a lot of pressure from certain pressure groups to get rid of the violence and make it more suitable for children! Williams was under instructions to tone it right down when he took on the show so where do you go if you can't show violence in a sci fi drama about a crusader battling evil aliens who are intent on destroying things and killing people?
I'm afraid I think you're missing the point of Doctor Who in that case, which is that it's supposed to be a scary drama, not a comedy, and that's what Tom and Graham forgot too often while they were making the show in those years.
If you want daft, throw about comedy, try Monty Python.
not too scary hopefully for the kids it was designed to be for ..
a balance of fear of what is coming next and comedic releif is what kids shows re good at and docotr who always achieved that.
But, oddly enough, the polls of Tom's best stories are always dominated by the ones Hinchcliffe produced, not the ones Williams produced, which I think aptly demonstrates how Hinchcliffe did a better job of running the show, maintaining high story standards and keeping Tom under control.
Those are polls in which the hardcore fans are voting. I was meaning more the general viewership over the years and at the time, who wouldn't be participating in such things.
I agree that series 24 wasn't all that bad - Time and the Rani was awful, but I liked Paradise Towers (Richard Briers' performance excepted) and Delta and the Bannermen was very enjoyable. Dragonfire wasn't much cop though.
I wonder which 4 you're putting in each category in the last two series? Personally, I thought Rembrance of the Daleks, The Curse of Fenric and Survival were really good. The Happiness Patrol was a good idea badly executed (and ruined by the inclusion of the unspeakable abomination that was the Kandyman). Both The Greatest Show in the Galaxy and Ghost Light were somewhat odd stories, but I liked them. Silver Nemesis and Battlefield were stinkers.
I rank The Happiness Patrol, Silver Nemesis, The Greatest Show in the Galaxy and Battlefield as stinkers. The other four I consider just about tolerable but I still wouldn't watch any of them now.
Doctor who by the mid 80's had become fairly unimaginative, not helped by Colin Baker's Doctor being so poorly written, but it wasn't a complete disaster. What polished it off was basically that Michael Grade and Jonathan Powell didn't like it. It wasn't as popular as its peak in the 70's, but it still pulled in good ratings for the timeslots they pushed into and the budget they were given. Maybe giving it more money wouldn't have helped the ratings, but shunting it to one side, cutting its budget again and letting it slowly die in a corner seemed an even weirder decision.
I know they feared the backlash of cancelling it, but after what Michael Grade has said since (about how rubbish it was) it seems so wussy. They wanted rid of it, but they didn't want to deal with the fallout of doing so. Sylvester McCoy had some really good stories, and some awful ones (I got the silver nemesis special edition VHS for a birthday when I was younger....HATED IT. It looked awful, the cybermen were as scarey as ham sandwiches and the plot was a re-hash). Anyway, it being cancelled in 1989 wasn't an inevitable fate, but it was one caused by various people in the BBC who decided that as they didn't like it, it should be cancelled. Which is a very strange way to run a tv channel.
I agree that Paradise Towers is an awful story but for the life of me I can't work out why so many people loath Rings.
I will say this though, if you didn't like Rings then at least it was over in one night. Four ruddy weeks we had to put up with the abomination that is Paradise Towers and it actually got worse as it went along.
In 1972 there was 6 weeks of The Mutants, followed by 6 weeks of The Time Monster. I think that takes the cake.
Comments
I'm afraid I think you're missing the point of Doctor Who in that case, which is that it's supposed to be a scary drama, not a comedy, and that's what Tom and Graham forgot too often while they were making the show in those years.
If you want daft, throw about comedy, try Monty Python.
It's always had comedy though. Some of Hartnell's, Troughton's, Pertwee's and Tom's best moments as the Doctor were purely comedic ones.
There's a difference between putting touches of comedy in the drama and letting the comedy become the dominant force in the show, which is what happened under Williams.
Maybe, but for a lot of people Tom Baker's portrayal of the Doctor is their favourite due to his comedic tendencies. Not me, I'm a Peter Davison man.
I agree with you about JNT as my post i've put again above highlights. There's no doubt in my mind that having the same Producer for all that time did the show no favours whatsoever. It's like if we had the same Doctor for nine years(came close with Tom Baker though!), it would start to get boring after a while. The show thrives on change and fresh blood(which is why I'm hoping Moffat will move on soon) and a new man at the top with fresh ideas will always give the show a lift.
I also agree that Colin Baker shouldn't have been fired. He was just hitting his stride in Season 23, I felt there was so much more to come from his Doctor. Whether he would have made Season 24 any better is open to debate, that really would have depended on whether JNT would have been allowed to leave at the end of the Trial Season as requested. As Colin Baker himself has said, it does seem odd you had a producer who wanted to leave and couldn't and a Doctor who wanted to stay but got fired!
I will have to disagree with you both about Season 24. I do like Delta and The Bannermen and to a degree Dragonfire but Paradise Towers was up to two months ago the worst story of Doctor Who ever made. It's now been surpassed by The Rings Of Akhaten which plumbed even further depths with it's appalling-ness! I never thought Paradise Towers could be beaten for awfulness but that story proved all things are possible!
And Dave I do agree with you(for once!) about The Happiness Patrol. It was a good idea but as you say it's onscreen execution was horrid and garish. I think The Greatest Show In The Galaxy was okay but still a bit outlandish. Silver Nemesis I do actually enjoy. Like Time Flight, it may not be a brilliant plot but there is something enjoyable and appealing about it when watching it. I think it helps that it's so no wonderfully normal and more traditional Who compared to other stories in the McCoy Era.
I agree that Paradise Towers is an awful story but for the life of me I can't work out why so many people loath Rings.
I will say this though, if you didn't like Rings then at least it was over in one night. Four ruddy weeks we had to put up with the abomination that is Paradise Towers and it actually got worse as it went along.
I agree about the episode length, guess as with everything else it all comes down to taste and what people enjoy. I tend to say the same about The Caves Of Androzani which imo is one of the best Doctor Who stories ever, but I appreciate there are people out there who don't hold it in the same esteem as myself. The same goes with your opinion of Rings and every other Doctor Who story.
But, oddly enough, the polls of Tom's best stories are always dominated by the ones Hinchcliffe produced, not the ones Williams produced, which I think aptly demonstrates how Hinchcliffe did a better job of running the show, maintaining high story standards and keeping Tom under control.
I think you're being a tad unfair to Williams! Yes his tenure injected more humour and less horror but in fairness to him and Baker, the BBC had been under a lot of pressure from certain pressure groups to get rid of the violence and make it more suitable for children! Williams was under instructions to tone it right down when he took on the show so where do you go if you can't show violence in a sci fi drama about a crusader battling evil aliens who are intent on destroying things and killing people?
not too scary hopefully for the kids it was designed to be for ..
a balance of fear of what is coming next and comedic releif is what kids shows re good at and docotr who always achieved that.
Those are polls in which the hardcore fans are voting. I was meaning more the general viewership over the years and at the time, who wouldn't be participating in such things.
I rank The Happiness Patrol, Silver Nemesis, The Greatest Show in the Galaxy and Battlefield as stinkers. The other four I consider just about tolerable but I still wouldn't watch any of them now.
I know they feared the backlash of cancelling it, but after what Michael Grade has said since (about how rubbish it was) it seems so wussy. They wanted rid of it, but they didn't want to deal with the fallout of doing so. Sylvester McCoy had some really good stories, and some awful ones (I got the silver nemesis special edition VHS for a birthday when I was younger....HATED IT. It looked awful, the cybermen were as scarey as ham sandwiches and the plot was a re-hash). Anyway, it being cancelled in 1989 wasn't an inevitable fate, but it was one caused by various people in the BBC who decided that as they didn't like it, it should be cancelled. Which is a very strange way to run a tv channel.
In 1972 there was 6 weeks of The Mutants, followed by 6 weeks of The Time Monster. I think that takes the cake.