Shada reconstruction financed by Ian Levine

be more pacificbe more pacific Posts: 19,061
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http://www.starburstmagazine.com/features/feature-articles/915-doctor-who-and-the-shada-man

This reminds me of the April Fools jokes DWM used to do in the 1980s. (Remember the serial with Davison edited into newly-discovered 'lost' Hartnell footage? Or the colourised version of The Tenth Planet?)

Fortunately, this news broke back in September, so it's not an early jape for tomorrow morning. Unfortunately, Levine didn't ask BBC Worldwide / 2Entertain before financing his animated version of the unfilmed footage.

With all the knowledge and experience Ian Levine undoubtedly has, it seems bizarre to me that he thought he could just make an unsolicited version of Doctor Who and expect 2Entertain to buy it from him.:confused:
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  • CoalHillJanitorCoalHillJanitor Posts: 15,634
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    If he's that devoted to the project he might be willing to sell it at a loss just to get it released. If the Powers that Beeb think it's good enough.
  • VericaciousVericacious Posts: 1,142
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    The design and likenesses look very good, but everyone except Tom Baker ? What's the point ? It amazes me that the people involved in such projects just plough on even when such an obviously essential element is missing.

    It reminds me of Big Finish's Sapphire and Steel- they bought the rights before sounding out the two lead actors about taking part. They didn't want to so, regardless of how well the replacements did, the result was a big let-down. JNT not securing Tom Baker's participation before the planning and writing of what ended up as The Five Doctors was another instance.

    Surely the BBC wouldn't even contemplate a 'proper' release of a finished Shada without Tom Baker? What next ? A production of Robert Holmes' The Six Doctors, without Hartnell/Hurndall, Troughton, Pertwee and, perhaps, also without Tom Baker?
  • be more pacificbe more pacific Posts: 19,061
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    I suspect the reconstruction will end up being nothing more than an expensive fan film for Ian Levine's personal viewing.

    Even if it is absolutely stunning, I can't see BBC Worldwide / 2Entertain being at all happy about the project being completed privately with no consultation at any stage. And then there's Douglas Adams' estate to consider. Not to mention Tom potentially phoning his lawyers over the unauthorised imitation of his voice and use of his image in this new drama production.

    I realise that Ian has always been a bit of a maverick when it comes to forcing the BBC to re-think its policies, but I think he has gone too far in actually producing a professional reconstruction of Shada without consent.

    To paraphrase the fourth Doctor's dilemma over whether to erase the Daleks from history "Do I have the rights?";)
  • Evil GeniusEvil Genius Posts: 8,837
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    Well to be fair, if PJ is doing the voice for Tom Baker, then at least it will sound better than Culsaw.

    He does a good Tom.
  • be more pacificbe more pacific Posts: 19,061
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    Well to be fair, if PJ is doing the voice for Tom Baker, then at least it will sound better than Culsaw.

    He does a good Tom.
    But the question is whether an impersonation of Tom (for non-satirical purposes) infringes Tom's likeness rights? In this case, we're talking about a cheaper substitute being paid to imitate another living actor because an agreement couldn't be reached to pay the going rate for the real deal.

    For all intents and purposes, it is being made to appear that Tom is participating in the project. I very much doubt Paul Jones would be given equal billing alongside Tom as "The Doctor" on any packaging and promotions for a Shada DVD.
  • be more pacificbe more pacific Posts: 19,061
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    I'll phrase this carefully to avoid advocating anything naughty. However, seeing as DS has many UK-based members inexplicably watching the latest American shows at "US pace", I have no qualms about telling everyone that Ian's version of Shada is out there.
  • TEDRTEDR Posts: 3,413
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    ... I have no qualms about telling everyone that Ian's version of Shada is out there.

    You mean it's a psychedelic trip, man?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,248
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    I've heard whispers it's been leaked out there somewhere too, but it's not the sort of thing I'd want to seek out.
  • grazey1985grazey1985 Posts: 1,480
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    Yep. Its out there on t.....t (bleeped to avoid mentioning where). I cant see ian being thrilled at that.
  • TEDRTEDR Posts: 3,413
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    I'm a law abider so it doesn't affect me, but: is it any good? Has anybody here seen it?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,248
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    TEDR wrote: »
    I'm a law abider so it doesn't affect me, but: is it any good? Has anybody here seen it?

    Same here. Is it worth this maybe having a proper, legit release one day?
  • be more pacificbe more pacific Posts: 19,061
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    The animation is a bit ropey, but the performances are very good. I wonder if these recordings could be combined with a new performance by Tom Baker to create a final version of the story?

    Ian himself uploaded a preview to YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUS9c8Ovs6c

    The other projects in that showcase are, to put it delicately, not nearly as polished as Shada.
  • grazey1985grazey1985 Posts: 1,480
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    Same here. Is it worth this maybe having a proper, legit release one day?

    Without legal clearance which ian apparently didnt bother with (unsure if that is true or not) i doubt it will get clearance
  • darnall42darnall42 Posts: 4,080
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    yeah an edited copy is doing the rounds (remastered footage from the dvd and the animation scenes trimmed to make each episode around 25 minuites) ,Ian might be very angry about it escaping but it is a great watch - it's a real shame that the beeb turned it down for dvd release
  • grazey1985grazey1985 Posts: 1,480
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    darnall42 wrote: »
    yeah an edited copy is doing the rounds (remastered footage from the dvd and the animation scenes trimmed to make each episode around 25 minuites) ,Ian might be very angry about it escaping but it is a great watch - it's a real shame that the beeb turned it down for dvd release

    The footage isnt remastered. Isnt as Sharp as the remastered dvd and the Font for the opening title is uncorrected (dvd Version was fixed). Having watched 3 episodes Id have to say the Animation is ok but Not anywhere near as Special as Ian has claimed it was.
  • DICKENS99DICKENS99 Posts: 2,620
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    grazey1985 wrote: »
    Yep. Its out there on t.....t (bleeped to avoid mentioning where). I cant see ian being thrilled at that.

    The Planet Mondas forum posted a copy of the letter which Ian had sent out to various parties threatening legal action over its unauthorised availability....quite how far in reality he could go with following this up I don't know but you can't argue with his main point which is that this is something he has spent money on developing in expectation of a future profit, it's not just a fan effort done for fun or as a training exercise in some new software. Indeed I think it was the PM forum owner himself who chipped in to point out that he had also invested money in this and so was obviously unhappy at the threat to any potential future returns.
  • be more pacificbe more pacific Posts: 19,061
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    grazey1985 wrote: »
    The footage isnt remastered. Isnt as Sharp as the remastered dvd and the Font for the opening title is uncorrected (dvd Version was fixed). Having watched 3 episodes Id have to say the Animation is ok but Not anywhere near as Special as Ian has claimed it was.
    Looking at how awful the animation and acting were in some of Ian's other projects, Shada is probably the best of a bad bunch.

    Judging by the preview in the YouTube video, I shudder at the prospect of a 150-minute version of Lost in the Dark Dimension with poor animation and bad impersonations. The story was only supposed to be 90-100 minutes as a proper TV production, FFS!

    I know Ian has done a lot to retrieve missing episodes over the years, but he now seems obsessed that nothing - no matter how tautological or just plain bad - should ever be cut.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,248
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    darnall42 wrote: »
    yeah an edited copy is doing the rounds (remastered footage from the dvd and the animation scenes trimmed to make each episode around 25 minuites) ,Ian might be very angry about it escaping but it is a great watch - it's a real shame that the beeb turned it down for dvd release

    So someone's got their hands on it and fixed a few things before leaking it?

    No wonder Ian's fuming. How dare people not only see Shada with out his permission, illegally, but a version potentially better than his own? But, no doubt, if this version gets much love and praise, he'll retroactively claim it was his version all along, and revise the past (like he's doing right now on Twitter).

    Shame though, some of us don't t.....t, so one day I'd like to see it out there as a legit release somehow.

    I do feel for him with the leak of his work, however if you believe in karma...
  • be more pacificbe more pacific Posts: 19,061
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    DICKENS99 wrote: »
    The Planet Mondas forum posted a copy of the letter which Ian had sent out to various parties threatening legal action over its unauthorised availability....quite how far in reality he could go with following this up I don't know but you can't argue with his main point which is that this is something he has spent money on developing in expectation of a future profit, it's not just a fan effort done for fun or as a training exercise in some new software. Indeed I think it was the PM forum owner himself who chipped in to point out that he had also invested money in this and so was obviously unhappy at the threat to any potential future returns.
    But it is just a fan effort. Unless Ian can produce some documentation to show that BBC Worldwide commissioned the work, there is no way he could reasonably have expected to profit from it.

    Ian talks about the current copyright "situation" holding back his (derivative) works, as if it's just BBC Worldwide being awkward. In reality, the "situation" is the mere fact that authors and rights holders are able to protect their intellectual property. I can't see that "situation" changing anytime soon.
  • DICKENS99DICKENS99 Posts: 2,620
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    But it is just a fan effort. Unless Ian can produce some documentation to show that BBC Worldwide commissioned the work, there is no way he could reasonably have expected to profit from it.

    Ian talks about the current copyright "situation" holding back his (derivative) works, as if it's just BBC Worldwide being awkward. In reality, the "situation" is the mere fact that authors and rights holders are able to protect their intellectual property. I can't see that "situation" changing anytime soon.

    The point I was stressing is that regardless of whether he is ultimately able to exploit the commercial potential of what he has created, it was created with the intention of being marketed and sold and he and others invested money in its creation for that ultimate purpose so his upset is understandable.

    There are plenty of marvellously creative vids on Youtube, produced using software packages which no doubt came at a cost, but they are presented as a creative act with no expectation of remuneration. This is not the case of Ian's activities with Shada, at least as I understand it, but then I don't think any of us do know the full story or its current legal underpinnings.
  • outsideoutside Posts: 5,610
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    I enjoyed the animation for this, even though I assumed it would be pretty bad having seen the "trailer" for IL's other projects. It's nowhere near as satisfying as the Invasion animation but it certainly matches or surpasses the other official releases.

    I'm not so keen on revoicing characters, though. Chronotis becomes an odd, camp little thing and the Doctor... well, it's not a bad impersonation but it's nothing more than that.
  • be more pacificbe more pacific Posts: 19,061
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    DICKENS99 wrote: »
    The point I was stressing is that regardless of whether he is ultimately able to exploit the commercial potential of what he has created, it was created with the intention of being marketed and sold and he and others invested money in its creation for that ultimate purpose so his upset is understandable.

    There are plenty of marvellously creative vids on Youtube, produced using software packages which no doubt came at a cost, but they are presented as a creative act with no expectation of remuneration. This is not the case of Ian's activities with Shada, at least as I understand it, but then I don't think any of us do know the full story or its current legal underpinnings.
    Well, we do know that BBC Worldwide and the Douglas Adams estate would be the people to pursue any legal case over the unauthorised distribution of Shada. They own the rights to the script and the studio footage, Ian Levine does not.

    In this particular instance, the original leaker must be someone closely linked to Ian himself. I wonder how many people Ian can identify as recently being in possession of a copy? He's usually quite keen to name and shame when he feels he's been wronged.
  • M@nterikM@nterik Posts: 6,982
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    Looking at how awful the animation and acting were in some of Ian's other projects, Shada is probably the best of a bad bunch.

    Judging by the preview in the YouTube video, I shudder at the prospect of a 150-minute version of Lost in the Dark Dimension with poor animation and bad impersonations. The story was only supposed to be 90-100 minutes as a proper TV production, FFS!

    I know Ian has done a lot to retrieve missing episodes over the years, but he now seems obsessed that nothing - no matter how tautological or just plain bad - should ever be cut.

    Shada and MTTU are very good.

    The others vary between poor and awful that I have seen.

    He did a good job with Shada but let us remember it was not just his money but others who chipped in.
  • Fairyprincess0Fairyprincess0 Posts: 30,061
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    Don't we already have a perfectly good animated version of shada?......
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 5
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    grazey1985 wrote: »
    The footage isnt remastered. Isnt as Sharp as the remastered dvd and the Font for the opening title is uncorrected (dvd Version was fixed). Having watched 3 episodes Id have to say the Animation is ok but Not anywhere near as Special as Ian has claimed it was.

    This is incorrect. The font is fixed, and the footage is from the DVD. The animated sequences have been tightened up significantly as well, foley work done on the audio, etc.
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