I think its difficult to compare as both are totally different situations.
EastEnders have just had a realistic coming out scene which seems to have moved almost everyone watching it while Hollyoaks is about to have a male rape storyline for pure sensational reasons without any plausible build up. It doesn't ring true at all. I cannot buy Finn raping John Paul just because he wants ''control'' at all and I think its really offensive how Hollyoaks have pitched this. I reckon the only reason its been done is to try and win soap awards and I bet it bombs. There is such a thing as being too obvious.
I do agree that these are both different situations but as I said before, I would argue that they're both sexuality-based storylines with a gay character at the centre. I can imagine BK feeling pretty unhappy right now that the Eastenders storyline has seemingly come from nowhere and really resonated with a lot of people watching, while for his favourite gay character (and let's not pretend that JP is anything other than his favourite), a lot of people seem to be ambivalent to the storyline or wary about how it's going to come across as realistic.
The reaction to the Johnny storyline actually reminds me a lot of the JP/Craig storyline back in the day in terms of the impact it's having, and I think BK is trying to capture some of that old fire that viewers had for JP's character with the rape storyline. I mean, JP has hardly had anything to do since his return because they've been deliberately holding this storyline off until it's fresh in people's minds for the upcoming awards season, as you said: it seems to be all about winning awards but there doesn't seem to be much heart behind it. I feel the same way about the Patrick/Maxine domestic violence storyline. There's been a slightly better build-up to that one but it's too issue-driven and we as viewers have had to make too many allowances to believe that Patrick could have gotten Maxine to the point where he was able to do it.
I just wonder if the current buzz that Eastenders has got back is going to have a direct impact on the sensationalist storylines that HO have been going for recently. HO ratings have been fairly solid but I can easily see them dipping once people start realising that there's not a whole lot of storytelling going on right now.
Erm, Hollyoaks has had a lot more murders than EE has recently?
I'm not denying there hasn't been some far fetched plots in ee over the past year but since there has been a new EP, those farcical plots seem to have reduced quite a lot.
Yeah they went crazy with Bobby's snake disappering and Poppy fear of it, so far fetched
Anyone who says EE has had more deaths then HO must be on something ;-), HO killed off more people then I have fingers to count on
But this is John Paul! A bolsy headstrong guy whose been living as an out gay man for about seven years - thinking about it in believable terms, the campaign would never have got this far. I'm not saying headstrong and confident men don't get raped, but it requires the audience to believe it could get to that stage where he's overpowered in fear by Finn. A closeted teacher or a shy unconfident guy who had just come out - I can imagine onscreen that working for the story in terms of someone so beaten down. But the bullying campaign and JP's reaction are contrived.
Yup, agree with this. I'll give the storyline some credit: I think they've developed Finn's character in a way that I can imagine him raping someone out of frustration and self-loathing and wanting to prove himself. Keith Rice has done a nice job of conveying some complex emotions and his character development recently reflects that. If he'd raped Ruby last week when she was taunting him, for example, I think that would have been genuinely shocking and believable and would have served the purpose of getting across his state of mind. I've also said before that it would psychologically make more sense if he raped Robbie to prove his masculinity to him.
The weak link here is why it's JP that is the victim of the attack. That's what I'm struggling with. Yes, Finn might be physically capable of raping JP if he really wanted to, but why does he feel the need to when JP has been so supportive to him? And why is JP letting all of this bullying happen? We've seen before that Patrick is supportive to him, so why not just report it? The whole thing just makes me feel very disillusioned in terms of BK's motivation behind it. The rape storyline with Luke was SO well done yet this just feels like a cynical attempt to get the soap on people's radar again. I just can't buy it. And I think I'm going to give Hollyoaks a miss for the next couple of weeks due to that. I'm just happy that Eastenders is giving us such quality storylining at the moment.
In a lot of ways, these stories really aren't comparable at all but EastEnders wins out because for the first time in a while, it's doing a storyline that is actually realistic and believably written and handled perfectly.
Hollyoaks on the other hand is not. This whole rape plot hasn't been well handled or researched and just comes across as rather sensationalistic which is why it's getting the criticism it's getting at the moment and rightly.
There were so many other type of stories they could've done with John Paul since he returned instead of sleeping with closeted guys and getting raped by a student who's currently waging a ridiculous campaign against him.
I think we should just admit that Hollyoaks have dropped the ball here with the character.
The reaction to the Johnny storyline actually reminds me a lot of the JP/Craig storyline back in the day in terms of the impact it's having, and I think BK is trying to capture some of that old fire that viewers had for JP's character with the rape storyline. I mean, JP has hardly had anything to do since his return because they've been deliberately holding this storyline off until it's fresh in people's minds for the upcoming awards season, as you said: it seems to be all about winning awards but there doesn't seem to be much heart behind it. I feel the same way about the Patrick/Maxine domestic violence storyline. There's been a slightly better build-up to that one but it's too issue-driven and we as viewers have had to make too many allowances to believe that Patrick could have gotten Maxine to the point where he was able to do it.
I just wonder if the current buzz that Eastenders has got back is going to have a direct impact on the sensationalist storylines that HO have been going for recently. HO ratings have been fairly solid but I can easily see them dipping once people start realising that there's not a whole lot of storytelling going on right now.
The part I've bolded is the root of all Hollyoaks's current problems - you have to suspend disbelief, forget everything you know about the character and shrug and accept plot developments. Even the trashy high campness of Sienna's story was blighted by that from the outset. I don't know if it's a problem for the casual dip-in-dip-out viewer but it's certainly a problem for me. It's like the characters are shoved into plots, made to hit the big story marks regardless of their character.
If you take this story, why hasn't JP said or done anything? He's close to his family, he has Patrick - there should be a school board or other teachers seeing things. I'd buy it more if it was Danny - who couldn't say anything because it would out the affair. It's not like Esther's story when she was isolated and beaten down for months and months and months.
It may be cynical but it does just seem to be a plot where BK can have a favourite character experience a tear inducing trauma in perfect time for British Soap Award nominations. As it was mentioned as soon as James Sutton signed up (and was used as a tool to get him to sign a contract) it's like they pushed it back to January for maximum impact (*cough* awards).
I don't think you really can compare the two one is about Sexuality and coming out(Eastenders) while the other is more about power and control, homophobia/Bullying/sexual assault (Hollyoaks)
I don't understand why some see it as sensationalist, rape does happen and all Oaks is doing it raising awareness of male rape something that is not really talked about it. Also there's no stereotype of a rapist, Finn's is certainly not himself and we've seen that build up, they've worked closely with the organisation, the man who works for the organisation might have had some input into the sl etc, I think the aftermath will be good (I hope it is).
I don't understand why some see it as sensationalist, rape does happen and all Oaks is doing it raising awareness of male rape something that is not really talked about it. Also there's no stereotype of a rapist, Finn's is certainly not himself and we've seen that build up, they've worked closely with the organisation, the man who works for the organisation might have had some input into the sl etc, I think the aftermath will be good (I hope it is).
It's down to credibility, and with Finn raping John Paul there is none. How many straight men would rape a gay man, the answer is there wouldn't be very many cases at all. There is more chance of a straight male raping a straight male, or a gay/bi-sexual man raping another man.
The reason for this is if a straight man is caught after raping a gay man then there would be a lot of questions raised about the rapists sexuality, thus the rapist themselves would be humiliated if straight by people thinking they are gay.
If it had been a gay/bi-sexual man raping John Paul, or visa versa, then they would have been some credibility in raising the issue of male rape, much in the same way as what happened when Luke Morgan was raped by Mark Gibbs.
When that storyline occurred, there was an increase in men coming forward to rep[ort being raped.
I suspect though it will be like a lot of issue led storyline Hollyoaks has done in the past and simply fall flat, achieving nothing.
It's down to credibility, and with Finn raping John Paul there is none. How many straight men would rape a gay man, the answer is there wouldn't be very many cases at all. There is more chance of a straight male raping a straight male, or a gay/bi-sexual man raping another man.
The reason for this is if a straight man is caught after raping a gay man then there would be a lot of questions raised about the rapists sexuality, thus the rapist themselves would be humiliated if straight by people thinking they are gay.
If it had been a gay/bi-sexual man raping John Paul, or visa versa, then they would have been some credibility in raising the issue of male rape, much in the same way as what happened when Luke Morgan was raped by Mark Gibbs.
When that storyline occurred, there was an increase in men coming forward to rep[ort being raped.
I suspect though it will be like a lot of issue led storyline Hollyoaks has done in the past and simply fall flat, achieving nothing.
It doesn't matter if the guy's gay/bi or straight as the rape has nothing to do with sexuality, it's about power. Well I hope it does raise awareness and helps victims of rape come forward or just speak to someone about it. This sl does seem to be unpopular on here and I respect why some people don't like it and maybe it's just me but I think it's a good sl to do and if they do it well, it could be a really good sl, so far I think they've done a good job with the build up.
Its not really a case of a straight guy raping another guy, its more down to the fact its a pupil raping his teacher. Not just any pupil. Finn who up until four months ago was a pretty decent boy. Its too far of a stretch to believe and it is sensational. This is from the same man who thought a woman swapping her dead baby for her neighbours live one was plausible so nothing surprises me.
Not only is it a major leap for Finn to rape a man but you really have to suspend belief JP would let it go this far. Like you said he is strong minded and has a big support network. There have been too many silly moments that make the build up unbelievable like the whole class blindly following in homophobia. It wouldn't happen.
Totally agree. You would not get a whole class of teenagers that age jumping onboard what amounts to homophobic bullying by a couple of idiots in this day and age. Robbie and Finn would have been expelled by now anyway. Its all just so far-fetched and sensationalist for the sake of it and now we are expected to believe that one of these teenagers will actually rape John-Paul? Nonsense. Kirkwood is just after headlines and it seems the bullying will still go on for months afterwards so the show isn't even going to try and help any viewer who has been assaulted and instead are going to continue to pile on the agony for the victim in an effort to chase awards.
Eastenders isn't out of the woods yet. Yes it has had a good week but apart for the Carters lots of other things need sorted and also talking about realism Carl's death was completely unrealistic. People seem to be blinded by the Carters and are forgetting about all the other characters.
I just happened upon this thread in error, but reading through was very interesting.
I watch Hollyoaks if there is absolutely nothing else on - so rarely - as it's long lost it's magic for me, but reading about JP's impending rape reminds me very much of the Gary Lucy character Luke Morgan and his rape storyline back in 2000/2001.
Although Luke was straight and JP's gay, it does sound like a bit of a re-hash of an old plot which won at least one award and was very well-received critically.
I don't understand why some see it as sensationalist, rape does happen and all Oaks is doing it raising awareness of male rape something that is not really talked about it. Also there's no stereotype of a rapist, Finn's is certainly not himself and we've seen that build up, they've worked closely with the organisation, the man who works for the organisation might have had some input into the sl etc, I think the aftermath will be good (I hope it is).
That isn't why people are saying it's sensationalist. It's sensationalist because like all their other stories lately the 'climax' is rushed forward with build up that ignores sense, logic and character backstory. Aftermath isn't always their strong point and I hope for their sake they do it well without throwing in a kidnapping or bomb plot. But if the build up is hard to believe then it sort of negates the aftermath...
I think that EastEnders just about overshadows Hollyoaks in every way imaginable, especially in regards to these storylines. One is about a genuine, day to day struggle for many people that has been brilliantly portrayed and is a true inspiration to many young people in the same position. The other is just totally absurd, unrealistic, ridiculous, stupid and just not in the slightest bit believable, as it involves a schoolboy raping his teacher in order to cover up a robbery and impress his "friend" that just a few months ago ran him over. I cannot even believe anyone is even going to bother watching this ridiculous storyline when we have EastEnders to look forward to.
Its not really a case of a straight guy raping another guy, its more down to the fact its a pupil raping his teacher. Not just any pupil. Finn who up until four months ago was a pretty decent boy. Its too far of a stretch to believe and it is sensational. This is from the same man who thought a woman swapping her dead baby for her neighbours live one was plausible so nothing surprises me.
Completely agree. The baby swap storyline was just beyond ridiculous, just like anything involving Bryan Kirkwood.
It doesn't matter if the guy's gay/bi or straight as the rape has nothing to do with sexuality, it's about power. Well I hope it does raise awareness and helps victims of rape come forward or just speak to someone about it. This sl does seem to be unpopular on here and I respect why some people don't like it and maybe it's just me but I think it's a good sl to do and if they do it well, it could be a really good sl, so far I think they've done a good job with the build up.
The point is that power is negated when the rapist is caught, as then the rapists sexuality is called into question for raping someone who is gay. It is far more likely a straight man would physically attack as gay man rather than try to rape him, which makes the whole scenario implausible.
The storyline comes across as poorly conceived by a series producer with an agenda. If it was another gay person raping John Paul then it would have more weight to it, given gay men are far more likely to rape another gay man than a straight man would.
It's like the feminist community not wanting to admit that women also rape other women.
As a result this storyline comes across as a sensationalist storyline, in an attempt to grab headlines, rather than one of actual merit that does some good, like what happened when Luke Morgan was raped in Hollyoaks.
Then there was a 25% increase in men reporting being raped by other men when Luke Morgan's storyline aired.
Totally agree. You would not get a whole class of teenagers that age jumping onboard what amounts to homophobic bullying by a couple of idiots in this day and age. Robbie and Finn would have been expelled by now anyway. Its all just so far-fetched and sensationalist for the sake of it and now we are expected to believe that one of these teenagers will actually rape John-Paul? Nonsense. Kirkwood is just after headlines and it seems the bullying will still go on for months afterwards so the show isn't even going to try and help any viewer who has been assaulted and instead are going to continue to pile on the agony for the victim in an effort to chase awards.
I completely agree with this. I remember when John Paul came out and he totally stood up to his entire class when Sonny picked on him for it, and he also gripped up some guy that was picking on Michaela because he was gay. 8 years on, we are expected to believe that John Paul would allow himself to be bullied by 2 teenage pupils, who as you say would have been expelled long ago, and that this has traumatised him so much that he allows one of them to rape him? Christ, this beats the Sarah and Rhys relationship storyline, which I considered to be the worst storyline in the history of Hollyoaks...until now!
For me, I just can't get into the Finn-John Paul build-up because it is so ridiculous. I know it's not all about physical strength in the case of rape, but I just can't fathom why JP would be so terrified of Finn that he'd freeze and let himself be raped by a much smaller, much weaker man.
I mean he had no problem laying out Ste the other week in the street and he is a McQueen, so he doesn't strike me as the type to be easily intimidated.
Personally, I think Robbie should've got the storyline as I could kind of believe him to be capable of rape and that JP could be scared of him. It just seems such a quantum leap for Finn on all accounts.
As for coming out stories, McDean was the best coming-out soap saga of the time whereas this is just sensationalist crap.
I honestly don't see the comparisons between Johnnys coming out story in Eastenders and Finn raping John Paul in Hollyoaks, they are completely different stories, many don't seem to realise that rape is not about sex or sexuality its about having power and control, I had and still do have some doubts about Finn being the rapist and not Robbie but Johnny's coming out story won't be overshadowing this story, like it won't be overshadowing the home farm fire in Emmerdale or Hayley and Roy's story in Corrie, all completely different!
Comments
I do agree that these are both different situations but as I said before, I would argue that they're both sexuality-based storylines with a gay character at the centre. I can imagine BK feeling pretty unhappy right now that the Eastenders storyline has seemingly come from nowhere and really resonated with a lot of people watching, while for his favourite gay character (and let's not pretend that JP is anything other than his favourite), a lot of people seem to be ambivalent to the storyline or wary about how it's going to come across as realistic.
The reaction to the Johnny storyline actually reminds me a lot of the JP/Craig storyline back in the day in terms of the impact it's having, and I think BK is trying to capture some of that old fire that viewers had for JP's character with the rape storyline. I mean, JP has hardly had anything to do since his return because they've been deliberately holding this storyline off until it's fresh in people's minds for the upcoming awards season, as you said: it seems to be all about winning awards but there doesn't seem to be much heart behind it. I feel the same way about the Patrick/Maxine domestic violence storyline. There's been a slightly better build-up to that one but it's too issue-driven and we as viewers have had to make too many allowances to believe that Patrick could have gotten Maxine to the point where he was able to do it.
I just wonder if the current buzz that Eastenders has got back is going to have a direct impact on the sensationalist storylines that HO have been going for recently. HO ratings have been fairly solid but I can easily see them dipping once people start realising that there's not a whole lot of storytelling going on right now.
Yeah they went crazy with Bobby's snake disappering and Poppy fear of it, so far fetched
Anyone who says EE has had more deaths then HO must be on something
Yup, agree with this. I'll give the storyline some credit: I think they've developed Finn's character in a way that I can imagine him raping someone out of frustration and self-loathing and wanting to prove himself. Keith Rice has done a nice job of conveying some complex emotions and his character development recently reflects that. If he'd raped Ruby last week when she was taunting him, for example, I think that would have been genuinely shocking and believable and would have served the purpose of getting across his state of mind. I've also said before that it would psychologically make more sense if he raped Robbie to prove his masculinity to him.
The weak link here is why it's JP that is the victim of the attack. That's what I'm struggling with. Yes, Finn might be physically capable of raping JP if he really wanted to, but why does he feel the need to when JP has been so supportive to him? And why is JP letting all of this bullying happen? We've seen before that Patrick is supportive to him, so why not just report it? The whole thing just makes me feel very disillusioned in terms of BK's motivation behind it. The rape storyline with Luke was SO well done yet this just feels like a cynical attempt to get the soap on people's radar again. I just can't buy it. And I think I'm going to give Hollyoaks a miss for the next couple of weeks due to that.
Hollyoaks on the other hand is not. This whole rape plot hasn't been well handled or researched and just comes across as rather sensationalistic which is why it's getting the criticism it's getting at the moment and rightly.
There were so many other type of stories they could've done with John Paul since he returned instead of sleeping with closeted guys and getting raped by a student who's currently waging a ridiculous campaign against him.
I think we should just admit that Hollyoaks have dropped the ball here with the character.
The part I've bolded is the root of all Hollyoaks's current problems - you have to suspend disbelief, forget everything you know about the character and shrug and accept plot developments. Even the trashy high campness of Sienna's story was blighted by that from the outset. I don't know if it's a problem for the casual dip-in-dip-out viewer but it's certainly a problem for me. It's like the characters are shoved into plots, made to hit the big story marks regardless of their character.
If you take this story, why hasn't JP said or done anything? He's close to his family, he has Patrick - there should be a school board or other teachers seeing things. I'd buy it more if it was Danny - who couldn't say anything because it would out the affair. It's not like Esther's story when she was isolated and beaten down for months and months and months.
It may be cynical but it does just seem to be a plot where BK can have a favourite character experience a tear inducing trauma in perfect time for British Soap Award nominations. As it was mentioned as soon as James Sutton signed up (and was used as a tool to get him to sign a contract) it's like they pushed it back to January for maximum impact (*cough* awards).
It's down to credibility, and with Finn raping John Paul there is none. How many straight men would rape a gay man, the answer is there wouldn't be very many cases at all. There is more chance of a straight male raping a straight male, or a gay/bi-sexual man raping another man.
The reason for this is if a straight man is caught after raping a gay man then there would be a lot of questions raised about the rapists sexuality, thus the rapist themselves would be humiliated if straight by people thinking they are gay.
If it had been a gay/bi-sexual man raping John Paul, or visa versa, then they would have been some credibility in raising the issue of male rape, much in the same way as what happened when Luke Morgan was raped by Mark Gibbs.
When that storyline occurred, there was an increase in men coming forward to rep[ort being raped.
I suspect though it will be like a lot of issue led storyline Hollyoaks has done in the past and simply fall flat, achieving nothing.
It doesn't matter if the guy's gay/bi or straight as the rape has nothing to do with sexuality, it's about power. Well I hope it does raise awareness and helps victims of rape come forward or just speak to someone about it. This sl does seem to be unpopular on here and I respect why some people don't like it and maybe it's just me but I think it's a good sl to do and if they do it well, it could be a really good sl, so far I think they've done a good job with the build up.
Totally agree. You would not get a whole class of teenagers that age jumping onboard what amounts to homophobic bullying by a couple of idiots in this day and age. Robbie and Finn would have been expelled by now anyway. Its all just so far-fetched and sensationalist for the sake of it and now we are expected to believe that one of these teenagers will actually rape John-Paul? Nonsense. Kirkwood is just after headlines and it seems the bullying will still go on for months afterwards so the show isn't even going to try and help any viewer who has been assaulted and instead are going to continue to pile on the agony for the victim in an effort to chase awards.
I watch Hollyoaks if there is absolutely nothing else on - so rarely - as it's long lost it's magic for me, but reading about JP's impending rape reminds me very much of the Gary Lucy character Luke Morgan and his rape storyline back in 2000/2001.
Although Luke was straight and JP's gay, it does sound like a bit of a re-hash of an old plot which won at least one award and was very well-received critically.
That isn't why people are saying it's sensationalist. It's sensationalist because like all their other stories lately the 'climax' is rushed forward with build up that ignores sense, logic and character backstory. Aftermath isn't always their strong point and I hope for their sake they do it well without throwing in a kidnapping or bomb plot. But if the build up is hard to believe then it sort of negates the aftermath...
Completely agree. The baby swap storyline was just beyond ridiculous, just like anything involving Bryan Kirkwood.
The point is that power is negated when the rapist is caught, as then the rapists sexuality is called into question for raping someone who is gay. It is far more likely a straight man would physically attack as gay man rather than try to rape him, which makes the whole scenario implausible.
The storyline comes across as poorly conceived by a series producer with an agenda. If it was another gay person raping John Paul then it would have more weight to it, given gay men are far more likely to rape another gay man than a straight man would.
It's like the feminist community not wanting to admit that women also rape other women.
As a result this storyline comes across as a sensationalist storyline, in an attempt to grab headlines, rather than one of actual merit that does some good, like what happened when Luke Morgan was raped in Hollyoaks.
Then there was a 25% increase in men reporting being raped by other men when Luke Morgan's storyline aired.
Hollyjokes is really funny! If this was 2004 not 2014. Can't you come up with something better?
That's as old as the hills.
I completely agree with this. I remember when John Paul came out and he totally stood up to his entire class when Sonny picked on him for it, and he also gripped up some guy that was picking on Michaela because he was gay. 8 years on, we are expected to believe that John Paul would allow himself to be bullied by 2 teenage pupils, who as you say would have been expelled long ago, and that this has traumatised him so much that he allows one of them to rape him? Christ, this beats the Sarah and Rhys relationship storyline, which I considered to be the worst storyline in the history of Hollyoaks...until now!
I mean he had no problem laying out Ste the other week in the street and he is a McQueen, so he doesn't strike me as the type to be easily intimidated.
Personally, I think Robbie should've got the storyline as I could kind of believe him to be capable of rape and that JP could be scared of him. It just seems such a quantum leap for Finn on all accounts.
As for coming out stories, McDean was the best coming-out soap saga of the time whereas this is just sensationalist crap.