'Snow' shovel v 'Normal' shovel

[Deleted User] · 09/01/10 - 09:17

We been relatively lucky here and not had too much snow, but now in the car park it is getting compacted down and becoming ice so I'm thinking of buying a shovel to start clearing some of it, but, would a 'normal' shovel be better for compacted snow or a 'snow' shovel?

I can go out and buy a shovel today but have never seen a snow shovel localy so would have to order that of the internet. But would be worth the wait if it's going to make it a lot quicker and easier.

Snow shovel
Normal shovel

Hypnodisc · 09/01/10 - 09:19

I think I'd rather buy snow chains.

Or £37 of salt..

Seriously, my ASDA is doing 750g of salt for 35p

I bought a basket load

Poured it all over my path and steps; lovely job

[Deleted User] · 09/01/10 - 09:23

I've already gone through £50+ quid's worth of salt, was looking also for a long term cheaper option, as it gets like this every time is snows.

[Deleted User] · 09/01/10 - 09:27

Before you start going out with your shovel think if it is worth it. I was listening to the radio and they were talking about how if you clear the snow and then it gets icy and somebody falls on it you can get sued according to the governement.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3453039.stm

One MP is still pressing for the law to be changed so people can "do their bit" and try and help with the snow problems.

[Deleted User] · 09/01/10 - 09:40

Alcdrew wrote: »

We been relatively lucky here and not had too much snow, but now in the car park it is getting compacted down and becoming ice so I'm thinking of buying a shovel to start clearing some of it, but, would a 'normal' shovel be better for compacted snow or a 'snow' shovel?

I can go out and buy a shovel today but have never seen a snow shovel localy so would have to order that of the internet. But would be worth the wait if it's going to make it a lot quicker and easier.

Snow shovel
Normal shovel

£37 for a shovel!? WTF :eek:

[Deleted User] · 09/01/10 - 09:41

They had an injury lawyer (boo hiss) on local radio yesterday talking about this, and he said it would be virtually impossible to pursue this for a claim (slipping on a cleared path)

He said if you hadn't cleared an area and someone fell they could still sue you, but it would be very difficult for them. They would have to prove other people had fallen too.

It's really down to common sense.

[Deleted User] · 09/01/10 - 09:42

cunningham1471 wrote: »

Before you start going out with your shovel think if it is worth it. I was listening to the radio and they were talking about how if you clear the snow and then it gets icy and somebody falls on it you can get sued according to the governement.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3453039.stm

One MP is still pressing for the law to be changed so people can "do their bit" and try and help with the snow problems.

That article is from 2004, show me one report saying someone has been sued since then. seriusly I'm not worried about been sued, worst case I will sell my I was helping the community and got sued - this is why Britain is broken story to the daily mail to cover the costs.

[Deleted User] · 09/01/10 - 09:47

Once it becomes compacted it's a right game to try and remove it as it becomes ice stuck to the road, so a normal shovel will probably be best. Snow shovels are good as they allow you to shift it all quicker but you need to get out there not long after the snow has fallen (and not been compacted).

PS yes Urban Myth about being sued, people just like to believe it so they think it's OK to be lazy and not clear the snow, though unless you have salt to chuck down it's best to leave it anyway as you will still get ice forming, you just wont see it so well which is more dangerous than walking on compacted snow (least you can see it and you do get some traction(.

Sigurd · 09/01/10 - 09:57

Alcdrew, I've never used a proper snow shovel, though I have been tempted to buy one recently. My brother has one that's similar to the one in your link, and he thinks it's very useful for clearing fresh snow.

However, I see that you want to clear compacted snow, and I don't know how good it would be for that. From a wikiHow page on shovelling snow:

Pick the correct shovel for the task. There are two basic types. One is a digging shovel for high amounts of snow, and the other a pushing shovel for pushing low amounts of snow off of driveways, walkways, etc.

http://www.wikihow.com/Shovel-Snow

Presumably the one in your link is a pushing shovel, and I wonder if it's ideal for the job you want to do. I think you might be better with a conventional shovel but I could well be wrong.

Fieldfare · 09/01/10 - 10:07

cunningham1471 wrote: »

Before you start going out with your shovel think if it is worth it. I was listening to the radio and they were talking about how if you clear the snow and then it gets icy and somebody falls on it you can get sued according to the governement.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3453039.stm

One MP is still pressing for the law to be changed so people can "do their bit" and try and help with the snow problems.

Cunningham, there is no "law" to change, there is no risk of prosecution for clearing the snow away its NONSENSE. If you read it properly there is a hypothetical risk that if in doing so you create an additional trip or slip hazard and to do that you'd have to be STUPID ie by piling it all up in the middle of the pavement or throwing boiling water at it. STOP spreading this rumour and get out and do it. If you can stop your knee from jerking long enough. Sheesh, this is really winding me up.

[Deleted User] · 09/01/10 - 10:09

I had to clear the path outside my drive to get my car out, and found the best way was using a fork to break the ice, then a brush to clear everything away. a good layer of coarse dishwasher salt and its been fine for the past few days.

Sigurd · 09/01/10 - 10:19

Fieldfare wrote: »

Cunningham, there is no "law" to change, there is no risk of prosecution for clearing the snow away its NONSENSE. If you read it properly there is a hypothetical risk that if in doing so you create an additional trip or slip hazard and to do that you'd have to be STUPID ie by piling it all up in the middle of the pavement or throwing boiling water at it. STOP spreading this rumour and get out and do it. If you can stop your knee from jerking long enough. Sheesh, this is really winding me up.

Most of the references to householders being sued seem to come back to that statement made in the House of Lords by Lord Davies of Oldham back in 2004. However, no one ever seems to come up with a case where someone has actually been sued, so I think it would have been better if Lord Davies had kept his mouth shut. Certainly in my own village the pavements are a great deal easier to walk on where public-spirited householders have decided to clear them.

[Deleted User] · 09/01/10 - 10:39

jimmy7bellies wrote: »

Once it becomes compacted it's a right game to try and remove it as it becomes ice stuck to the road, so a normal shovel will probably be best. Snow shovels are good as they allow you to shift it all quicker but you need to get out there not long after the snow has fallen (and not been compacted).

PS yes Urban Myth about being sued, people just like to believe it so they think it's OK to be lazy and not clear the snow, though unless you have salt to chuck down it's best to leave it anyway as you will still get ice forming, you just wont see it so well which is more dangerous than walking on compacted snow (least you can see it and you do get some traction(.

Thanks, hadn't really thought about this. I will go out shopping shortly and see if I can find a shovel and a lot of salt/ grit.

Geejaay · 09/01/10 - 10:43

Snow shovels are sold out everywhere, but my neighbour's got one so I borrowed his. I used my normal shovel to break up the compacted snow - just push it along the ground in a scraping motion. Then use the snow shovel to clear the snow to whereever you want to pile it - it can hold loads more snow than a normal shovel.

[Deleted User] · 09/01/10 - 10:55

I know it was posted in 2004. I heard it being discussed on Talksport this morning so looked online to check if it was just the hosts being silly.
The point being that since 2004 we now blame others for everything and are getting more and more letigious as a society. Whilst it's possible that nobody has been sued since then, can you guarantee that you aren't going to get the one asshole that will want to make something of it?
I don't remember in 2004 reading that Sainsburys and other firms were saying if you don't turn up for work you don't get paid. Well that's changed.
If people want to go out and shovel snow then that is their choice, but they do so at the risk of someone seeing an opportunity to make money from it.

[Deleted User] · 09/01/10 - 11:06

cunningham1471 wrote: »

I know it was posted in 2004. I heard it being discussed on Talksport this morning so looked online to check if it was just the hosts being silly.
The point being that since 2004 we now blame others for everything and are getting more and more letigious as a society. Whilst it's possible that nobody has been sued since then, can you guarantee that you aren't going to get the one asshole that will want to make something of it?
I don't remember in 2004 reading that Sainsburys and other firms were saying if you don't turn up for work you don't get paid. Well that's changed.
If people want to go out and shovel snow then that is their choice, but they do so at the risk of someone seeing an opportunity to make money from it.

It's important to note that article mentions you could be liable and be sued (all be it highly unlikely) by clearing snow from council owned pavements.

Lord Davies said: "No householder is at all responsible, providing they do not touch the pavement, which is owned by the local authority."

There is no risk of being sued by clearing snow from your own property (eg paths/steps/driveway), this is where the urban myth has twisted the original facts and now everyone thinks you will get sued by clearing the snow from their properties which is rubbish.

Miss C. DeVille · 09/01/10 - 16:26

Looking on some sites giving advice if you haven't got grit or salt is to use cat litter. I think you can buy that pretty cheap and it is gritty so I suppose it works. Perhaps you could try that.

[Deleted User] · 09/01/10 - 16:43

Alcdrew wrote: »

That article is from 2004, show me one report saying someone has been sued since then. seriusly I'm not worried about been sued, worst case I will sell my I was helping the community and got sued - this is why Britain is broken story to the daily mail to cover the costs.

How about This Article from 2010 which effectively says the opposite...

Sigurd · 09/01/10 - 17:01

Dissonance wrote: »

How about This Article from 2010 which effectively says the opposite...

The article is actually very cautious and rather vague about possible legal action arising from clearing a pavement:

It's not the case in the UK. In fact, you are taking a theoretical legal risk if you clear the pavement in front of your home.

It's the local authority's responsibility to clear snow and ice from the public highway. By sweeping snow from one part of the pavement to another, if done in a manner that caused injury to someone, there is a chance legal action could be taken against you under the part of the law known as "tort of nuisance".

But, Paul Kitson, a partner with leading personal injury solicitors Russell Jones & Walker, explains that a claimant would have to show you had acted either maliciously or carelessly, and that such a case would often be tricky in practice.

"It would be quite difficult to prove and quite difficult to proceed with a claim."

I don't have a pavement in front of my house, but if I did I'd clear it of snow, though if someone can come up with actual cases where householders have been sued for clearing pavements then I might have to reconsider. However, I find it hard to imagine a case where it could be shown that a householder had acted "either maliciously or carelessly" by clearing a pavement unless they'd done something very odd indeed, like spraying it with a hose.

156418 · 09/01/10 - 17:21

Miss C. DeVille wrote: »

Looking on some sites giving advice if you haven't got grit or salt is to use cat litter.

The problem is though that stuff makes a right blood mess when it gets wet - something to think about if you plan to walk in it and get in a car or on some carpet without washing your shoes down properly first.

Sigurd · 12/01/10 - 16:41

On the subject of householders clearing pavements, a couple of answers were given yesterday in parliament. From the Lords:

Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, I do not know whether the Secretary of State saw the Sunday Telegraph yesterday. It had the headline: "Health and safety rules stop street gritting". It stated that householders and businesses have been told not to clear icy paths or they could be sued. Will he take this opportunity to say that this is nonsense and that people should feel free to go and clear the road, path or entrance, because these stories have an immediate effect on action?

Lord Adonis [Secretary of State for Transport: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their constructive remarks. I echo all that they said in commendation of our public service workers and the sense of responsibility that is animating people across the country. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, invoked the blitz spirit. At home, I have a mug with a wartime slogan on it: "Keep calm and carry on". That is precisely what the overwhelming majority of people in this country are doing and why Britain is keeping moving so successfully during this period of prolonged, severe cold weather.

I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, said about people being good neighbours and doing their local duty. It is total nonsense to say that health and safety legislation should stop people being good neighbours or doing their local duty. People should do their local duty. They should show common sense, neighbourliness and generosity of spirit, which the overwhelming majority of people are doing up and down the country.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldhansrd/text/100111-0003.htm

And from the Commons:

Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): When I was a lad, schools did not shut because of the snow. Before the day is out, will the Minister nail the urban myth that people who clear the snow on the pavement outside their houses or businesses are somehow likely to be held legally liable? Will the Government please nail that urban myth, because it used to be that an uncleared pavement was the exception, but now the cleared pavement is the exception?

Mr. Sadiq Khan [Minister of State, Department for Transport]: Those were the days! Somebody will probably come up with an example of someone being prosecuted or sued, but the hon. Gentleman is right: the message that is sent to the good citizen or somebody who wants to discharge their civic duty is perverse. At a time when schools are closed, we want young people to be doing something constructive. If a school is closed, people expect their young son or daughter to be outside helping a neighbour-perhaps someone who does not have children-to clear their pathways, and not to be frightened of being sued or prosecuted.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmhansrd/cm100111/debtext/100111-0005.htm

Fieldfare · 12/01/10 - 18:34

Thanks for posting that Sigurd, I can feel my blood pressure dropping on this issue now

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