Here we go again, why are you on this board as this is all you talk about. That 40% power is theoretical peak performance and there are many reliant factors involved that will allow that to occur. You are ignoring ALL of the signs from those that know far more than you that the consoles will not a world apart in terms of performance. Not least by the games already demonstrated thus far. Drive Club looks a mess, even in the 1080p uncompressed direct footage, AA issues everywhere and screen tearing and frame drops ahoy. Forza (it's nearest comparison) is looking mouthwatering.
I don't have any problems with car analogies, in fact Penello's was spot on, yours was not. There's more that goes into a car that makes it fast on track than just simply a high bhp engine. That is why a less powerful Ferrari would whip a Camero arse around a circuit, and here you are comparing Fiesta's and Ferrari's... stuck in traffic jams. Be quiet please.
The car analogy above is a shortened version of one I gave before. I explained how cars have different characteristics, so become suited to certain situations.
Like how in F1 you have cars that traditionally do better at certain circuits because they some have good straight-line speed, or some have good high speed cornering etc.
My analogy was identical to Albert's.
The traffic is an additional relevant metaphor - and relates to the argument you are presenting, that they have added Data Move Engines and the like.
Take the buses (the CPU/GPU buses, not big red vehicles), if the buses are clogged on your console (or in my car example there is traffic on the road) you might have to wait around for functions to perform - and so during that time you spend waiting you're not going to be able to perform other things.
That's what things like the DMEs are there for, to maximise efficiency. It does not however, increase the power of the GPU. It doesn't suddenly become a 5 TFLOPS device, it doesn't suddenly receive 16 additional ROPs or CUs. The power difference is there - but for some reason people on here are blind to that fact.
And yet again you're showing yourself up to be someone incapable of reading a simple statement and understanding it.
Power does not equal output. You can't say because Driveclub hasn't implemented any AA yet that the PS4 GPU is not 40% more powerful. You don't know what the game is doing. The game could well be performing 1.84 TFLOPS but still having those issues and it has nothing to do with audio chips or DMEs.
I'll repeat it yet again The 40% difference is real. The GPU can pull 1.84 TFLOPS. The Xbox One can pull 1.31 TFLOPS.
The PS4 has a 40.49% advantage. Games looking similar is NOTHING to do with that. Neither is anyone disputing what games will look like, because they're not released yet and as I've posted many times over the weeks we won't be able to fully judge for a few years once developers get to grips with the consoles and their unique feature sets and how best to push them. Launch titles will be more about getting the game up and running to a decent standard rather than optimising.
In addition you talk as if the Xbox One is some myriad of special things to make it more efficient - it has things added to improve efficiency and reduce the potential for bottlenecks, no doubt - but what makes you think the PS4 doesn't also do the same?
You think that they just bolted together a load of stock components and called it a day?
The Xbox One has an audio chip does it? Wow so does the PS4.
The Xbox One has Data Move Engines to give the CPU and GPU shared access does it? Wow, the PS4 does the same with with the Onion buses.
The Xbox One has eSRAM does it? Oh, the PS4 has none - that's a shame. But wait hold on, what was developers' number one request? Oh yes. Not to have eSRAM.
And yet again you're showing yourself up to be someone incapable of reading a simple statement and understanding it.
Power does not equal output. You can't say because Driveclub hasn't implemented any AA yet that the PS4 GPU is not 40% more powerful. You don't know what the game is doing. The game could well be performing 1.84 TFLOPS but still having those issues and it has nothing to do with audio chips or DMEs.
Then if that is true then case closed. None of it bloody matters.
Try talking about games once in a while, that's why these machines exist.
The Xbox One has eSRAM does it? Oh, the PS4 has none - that's a shame. But wait hold on, what was developers' number one request? Oh yes. Not to have eSRAM.
According to Sony yes, the masters at listening to developers.
Yet another source claims Microsoft are using a unique 'wafer design' to incorporate an additional dGPU. It might not turn out to be true but it's still well worth a read as this is quite a well detailed article link
No, 40.49% now! My erection won't susbside with the thought of the extra 0.49% that has been eked out of the system
Calm down gamercraig it's only 40.45801526717557% with an extra 0.45801526717557% rounded to 14 decimal places (Sorry I couldn't resist myself I'll get my bag now).
Yet another source claims Microsoft are using a unique 'wafer design' to incorporate an additional dGPU. It might not turn out to be true but it's still well worth a read as this is quite a well detailed article link
Thanks 2D interesting article, if it turns out to me true it could go some way to explaining why the X1 has passed FCC tests but there is no information in the public domain yet.
According to Sony yes, the masters at listening to developers.
Yep. They have ignored them in the past. Gone their own way and made sure they implemented everything Krazy Ken dreamt up, but he is gone now and Mark Cerny has made sure that this time round things were different.
The GPU may have a 40% advantage but that is just one part of the system. You keep focusing on that one part and ignoring the rest.
I am focusing on the GPU because that is what people are disputing. There is no disagreement on the other areas, so it isn't being dicussed.
The Xbox One CPU is 1.75GHz, we do not know what the PS4's CPU is. I believe it will remain the standard 1.6GHz, due to the consoles size as overclocking like MS have done will mean a disproportionate bump in power and heat. MS has an advantage in being a very large console and so they have some room for movement in those areas.
Yet another source claims Microsoft are using a unique 'wafer design' to incorporate an additional dGPU. It might not turn out to be true but it's still well worth a read as this is quite a well detailed article link
Note – This article is based off speculations from various parties, please take it with a grain of salt. Do head over to MisterXMedia for a detailed analysis on the Xbox One dGPU!
I headed over to MisterXMedia to see what he's saying. Here it is.
I fear though that as he says, Sony has typically come in with exotic hardware and crazy claims, but this time Sony isn't using an exotic hardware. Both consoles use the same CPU and both consoles have GPUs from the same olive tree.
Sony's architecture is biased towards using the GPU for non-graphic computations. They expect it to take devs a few years to figure out how to do that well. That's their equivalent to the Cell complexity (although hopefully not as hard as that). Meanwhile, it seems to me that some fraction of the GPU power will be left unused, and so even though it has more power available the games won't benefit.
"Just wait until devs get to grip with that extra 40% and more ROPS of pure horsepower, then you'll see!"
Well, yes, because that's what Sony have been saying right from the start. Where-as Microsoft were claiming the power of the cloud would give their console an edge. It will be years before we know for sure. Games on both consoles should get better over time. Personally I am dubious about whether the cloud will help as much as Microsoft claim, or whether it's as exclusive a benefit as they claim.
This thread is like watching two three year olds arguing which toy train is the better. The Red or blue one. The fact is that never before in a console generation has two machines been so similar hardware wise. Any difference in them is splitting hairs at best.
Hmmmm lot of reporting going on in this thread. Pathetic
Don't post childish comments that border on personal attacks then, I've not been reporting anything but I've seen plenty of your posts providing nothing to the discussion - nothing providing argument or counter-argument toward what is being discussed, only snarky comments about what people have said, try posting something useful instead of suggesting my username should be '****off' rather than 'chopoff', that people are crying because they've just had to go back to school or that your erection cannot be contained by 0.49%.
Sony's architecture is biased towards using the GPU for non-graphic computations. They expect it to take devs a few years to figure out how to do that well. That's their equivalent to the Cell complexity (although hopefully not as hard as that). Meanwhile, it seems to me that some fraction of the GPU power will be left unused, and so even though it has more power available the games won't benefit.
Well, yes, because that's what Sony have been saying right from the start. Where-as Microsoft were claiming the power of the cloud would give their console an edge. It will be years before we know for sure. Games on both consoles should get better over time. Personally I am dubious about whether the cloud will help as much as Microsoft claim, or whether it's as exclusive a benefit as they claim.
Yeah - I posted this above, we won't know for a couple of years yet, as launch games will be about getting the games running to an acceptable level rather than looking at the optimal way of doing things for each device.
Some games are already using the PS4 GPU's compute advantage though, Resogun for example is already reaping the rewards, it has physics and particles all over the place which are traditionally CPU tasks, but now they're using the GPU and as a result are only utilising 50% of the CPU, all whilst running at 1080p and 60 fps.
You then have Killer Instinct which is a similar game in many regards - both with simple backdrops with a few rendered objects mixed with plenty of particle effects and physics, yet that can only muster 720p at 60 fps.
The PS4 GPU has 8 ACE (async compute engines) with 64 queues, the Xbox One has only 2 ACEs and 16 queues.
That isn't really a bad thing for Xbox One - even high end cards like 7970 has 2 ACEs, but it is those additional ACEs that give the PS4 GPU the ability to tackle more things at once and whilst not making GPGPU compute free, makes it a very efficient and inexpensive task - as Resogun is proving.
Additionally let us not forget that this cloud thing MS keeps going on about isn't being used properly yet. Drivatar in Forza is not their vision for the cloud. It is just a set of driving techniques saved into a file and uploaded to cloud storage that you then download, it isn't cloud compute used in real time to affect your gaming in real time.
Sony will so be providing cloud compute. MS are probably further along in their preparations for it, but isn't a unique advantage that they have.
It's the modern equivalent of saying something then running to hide behind your mother's skirt
There you go again with your immature comments providing nothing toward the discussion...
Actually get involved. Go on, try it. See if you can provide a counter-argument to points you think are not valid and provide your reasoning for why you think that is that case.
That is how a discussion operates.
Everyone has opinions and beliefs and people are free to express those and so long as they show the reasons for why they think that their opinions or beliefs are correct and proper they should be respected.
Someone may disagree with those opinions and beliefs but as long as they then provide their own viewpoint - again with their reasons for why they have that viewpoint - they too should be respected.
And that is what is going on here. It is a debate, the likes of 2D is providing his viewpoint and outlining why he believes it and others like myself are providing counter-argument to his belief, whilst also providing reasoning.
No one has suggested that those that share 2D's train of thought are hiding up skirts, but for some reason you want to cast that aspersion on those who do not share that view.
Some forum posters get this. 2D has said before how he respects everyone and understands people have differing opinions. This shows he is a mature person. I also have respect for him, I think sometimes that my viewpoint is so clear and obvious that it's not understandable to me that he sticks with his viewpoint but I don't think any less of him.
Some posters like Red Arrow have also engaged in exemplary posting behaviour by reading posts providing a viewpoint and then questioning parts of the post and asking whether that it is a valid reason to give, which then allows the originating poster to expand upon their post and explain their viewpoint further and has done so for both sides of the argument.
But then you get your posts, which as I just posted, contain only sarcastic comments suggesting people are hiding up skirts, are school children or insinuating people get erections over 0.49%, which do not contribute anything to the discussion.
So Willy waving. You are trying to sound knowlegeable in a subject that you actually know little to nothing about.
Not sure why you think I know nothing about it. I'm not a subject matter expert but I know enough to understand what the numbers mean, what the benefits are and how things work. In addition, the power difference is there - it was disputed and I have been providing reasons why it is there. I don't consider that willy waving just to be stating fact like that.
Willy waving to me would be saying that the PS4 is more powerful than the Xbox One haha all your games are going to look really bad because my beloved PS4 is soooooo much better haha look at my amazing games they're sooo good, enjoy your life in gaming poverty Xbox fans! ha haaaa!
Which I haven't done - and which by the way I didn't instigate - I've only tried to educate that the 40% GPU difference is there and that is doesn't relate to the end result, which people are confusing as being the same thing.
There you go again with your immature comments providing nothing toward the discussion...
Actually get involved. Go on, try it. See if you can provide a counter-argument to points you think are not valid and provide your reasoning for why you think that is that case.
That is how a discussion operates.
Everyone has opinions and beliefs and people are free to express those and so long as they show the reasons for why they think that their opinions or beliefs are correct and proper they should be respected.
Someone may disagree with those opinions and beliefs but as long as they then provide their own viewpoint - again with their reasons for why they have that viewpoint - they too should be respected.
And that is what is going on here. It is a debate, the likes of 2D is providing his viewpoint and outlining why he believes it and others like myself are providing counter-argument to his belief, whilst also providing reasoning.
No one has suggested that those that share 2D's train of thought are hiding up skirts, but for some reason you want to cast that aspersion on those who do not share that view.
Some forum posters get this. 2D has said before how he respects everyone and understands people have differing opinions. This shows he is a mature person. I also have respect for him, I think sometimes that my viewpoint is so clear and obvious that it's not understandable to me that he sticks with his viewpoint but I don't think any less of him.
Some posters like Red Arrow have also engaged in exemplary posting behaviour by reading posts providing a viewpoint and then questioning parts of the post and asking whether that it is a valid reason to give, which then allows the originating poster to expand upon their post and explain their viewpoint further and has done so for both sides of the argument.
But then you get your posts, which as I just posted, contain only sarcastic comments suggesting people are hiding up skirts, are school children or insinuating people get erections over 0.49%, which do not contribute anything to the discussion.
Not sure why you think I know nothing about it. I'm not a subject matter expert but I know enough to understand what the numbers mean, what the benefits are and how things work. In addition, the power difference is there - it was disputed and I have been providing reasons why it is there. I don't consider that willy waving just to be stating fact like that.
Willy waving to me would be saying that the PS4 is more powerful than the Xbox One haha all your games are going to look really bad because my beloved PS4 is soooooo much better haha look at my amazing games they're sooo good, enjoy your life in gaming poverty Xbox fans! ha haaaa!
Which I haven't done - and which by the way I didn't instigate - I've only tried to educate that the 40% GPU difference is there and that is doesn't relate to the end result, which people are confusing as being the same thing.
The GPU is the most important aspect of a console, so it is the most important metric available.
No the games should be the most important aspect of any console.
Some of my favourite games of this generation have not been graphical power houses. I would expect see better graphics on all consoles in this upcoming generation but I want the potential of better gameplay more.
Comments
Like how in F1 you have cars that traditionally do better at certain circuits because they some have good straight-line speed, or some have good high speed cornering etc.
My analogy was identical to Albert's.
The traffic is an additional relevant metaphor - and relates to the argument you are presenting, that they have added Data Move Engines and the like.
Take the buses (the CPU/GPU buses, not big red vehicles), if the buses are clogged on your console (or in my car example there is traffic on the road) you might have to wait around for functions to perform - and so during that time you spend waiting you're not going to be able to perform other things.
That's what things like the DMEs are there for, to maximise efficiency. It does not however, increase the power of the GPU. It doesn't suddenly become a 5 TFLOPS device, it doesn't suddenly receive 16 additional ROPs or CUs. The power difference is there - but for some reason people on here are blind to that fact.
And yet again you're showing yourself up to be someone incapable of reading a simple statement and understanding it.
Power does not equal output. You can't say because Driveclub hasn't implemented any AA yet that the PS4 GPU is not 40% more powerful. You don't know what the game is doing. The game could well be performing 1.84 TFLOPS but still having those issues and it has nothing to do with audio chips or DMEs.
I'll repeat it yet again The 40% difference is real. The GPU can pull 1.84 TFLOPS. The Xbox One can pull 1.31 TFLOPS.
The PS4 has a 40.49% advantage. Games looking similar is NOTHING to do with that. Neither is anyone disputing what games will look like, because they're not released yet and as I've posted many times over the weeks we won't be able to fully judge for a few years once developers get to grips with the consoles and their unique feature sets and how best to push them. Launch titles will be more about getting the game up and running to a decent standard rather than optimising.
In addition you talk as if the Xbox One is some myriad of special things to make it more efficient - it has things added to improve efficiency and reduce the potential for bottlenecks, no doubt - but what makes you think the PS4 doesn't also do the same?
You think that they just bolted together a load of stock components and called it a day?
The Xbox One has an audio chip does it? Wow so does the PS4.
The Xbox One has Data Move Engines to give the CPU and GPU shared access does it? Wow, the PS4 does the same with with the Onion buses.
The Xbox One has eSRAM does it? Oh, the PS4 has none - that's a shame. But wait hold on, what was developers' number one request? Oh yes. Not to have eSRAM.
Then if that is true then case closed. None of it bloody matters.
Try talking about games once in a while, that's why these machines exist.
PS4 has GPU and RAM advantage (especially with HUMA being used).
Xbone has CPU advantage.
According to Sony yes, the masters at listening to developers.
No, 40.49% now! My erection won't susbside with the thought of the extra 0.49% that has been eked out of the system
Calm down gamercraig it's only 40.45801526717557% with an extra 0.45801526717557% rounded to 14 decimal places (Sorry I couldn't resist myself
Thanks 2D interesting article, if it turns out to me true it could go some way to explaining why the X1 has passed FCC tests but there is no information in the public domain yet.
Yep. They have ignored them in the past. Gone their own way and made sure they implemented everything Krazy Ken dreamt up, but he is gone now and Mark Cerny has made sure that this time round things were different.
The quotes from developers have attested to this.
I am focusing on the GPU because that is what people are disputing. There is no disagreement on the other areas, so it isn't being dicussed.
The Xbox One CPU is 1.75GHz, we do not know what the PS4's CPU is. I believe it will remain the standard 1.6GHz, due to the consoles size as overclocking like MS have done will mean a disproportionate bump in power and heat. MS has an advantage in being a very large console and so they have some room for movement in those areas.
I can focus on other areas if you like.
I made sure to give a 2 decimal place figure because someone above was claiming the 40% figure was inaccurate and was closer to 30%.
That poster has their maths wrong.
PS4 has a 40.49% advantage over Xbox One, but Xbox One is 28.8% weaker than PS4 (that's where people are getting 30%).
Feel free to continue to ridicule and make yourself look childish, though.
I headed over to MisterXMedia to see what he's saying. Here it is.
http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com/133802.html
I stopped reading here.
3.6 TFLOPS for this additional GPU bringing a total of 4.8 TFLOPS when combined.
An NVIDIA Titan is 4.5 TFLOPS and costs £800+.
An NVIDIA GTX 770 nears the 3.6 TFLOPS mark and costs £300-400.
The Xbox One will break even or make profit from launch.
The two are not compatible.
Ok guys chill be out - just wait for them to be released then resume the willy waving.
Well, yes, because that's what Sony have been saying right from the start. Where-as Microsoft were claiming the power of the cloud would give their console an edge. It will be years before we know for sure. Games on both consoles should get better over time. Personally I am dubious about whether the cloud will help as much as Microsoft claim, or whether it's as exclusive a benefit as they claim.
The GPU is the most important aspect of a console, so it is the most important metric available.
As I, and others, have also stated, or rather some confused with power, is how the power is used. That we won't know for some time to come.
Don't post childish comments that border on personal attacks then, I've not been reporting anything but I've seen plenty of your posts providing nothing to the discussion - nothing providing argument or counter-argument toward what is being discussed, only snarky comments about what people have said, try posting something useful instead of suggesting my username should be '****off' rather than 'chopoff', that people are crying because they've just had to go back to school or that your erection cannot be contained by 0.49%.
Yeah - I posted this above, we won't know for a couple of years yet, as launch games will be about getting the games running to an acceptable level rather than looking at the optimal way of doing things for each device.
Some games are already using the PS4 GPU's compute advantage though, Resogun for example is already reaping the rewards, it has physics and particles all over the place which are traditionally CPU tasks, but now they're using the GPU and as a result are only utilising 50% of the CPU, all whilst running at 1080p and 60 fps.
You then have Killer Instinct which is a similar game in many regards - both with simple backdrops with a few rendered objects mixed with plenty of particle effects and physics, yet that can only muster 720p at 60 fps.
The PS4 GPU has 8 ACE (async compute engines) with 64 queues, the Xbox One has only 2 ACEs and 16 queues.
That isn't really a bad thing for Xbox One - even high end cards like 7970 has 2 ACEs, but it is those additional ACEs that give the PS4 GPU the ability to tackle more things at once and whilst not making GPGPU compute free, makes it a very efficient and inexpensive task - as Resogun is proving.
Additionally let us not forget that this cloud thing MS keeps going on about isn't being used properly yet. Drivatar in Forza is not their vision for the cloud. It is just a set of driving techniques saved into a file and uploaded to cloud storage that you then download, it isn't cloud compute used in real time to affect your gaming in real time.
Sony will so be providing cloud compute. MS are probably further along in their preparations for it, but isn't a unique advantage that they have.
It's the modern equivalent of saying something then running to hide behind your mother's skirt
So Willy waving. You are trying to sound knowlegeable in a subject that you actually know little to nothing about.
heehehe:D
Actually get involved. Go on, try it. See if you can provide a counter-argument to points you think are not valid and provide your reasoning for why you think that is that case.
That is how a discussion operates.
Everyone has opinions and beliefs and people are free to express those and so long as they show the reasons for why they think that their opinions or beliefs are correct and proper they should be respected.
Someone may disagree with those opinions and beliefs but as long as they then provide their own viewpoint - again with their reasons for why they have that viewpoint - they too should be respected.
And that is what is going on here. It is a debate, the likes of 2D is providing his viewpoint and outlining why he believes it and others like myself are providing counter-argument to his belief, whilst also providing reasoning.
No one has suggested that those that share 2D's train of thought are hiding up skirts, but for some reason you want to cast that aspersion on those who do not share that view.
Some forum posters get this. 2D has said before how he respects everyone and understands people have differing opinions. This shows he is a mature person. I also have respect for him, I think sometimes that my viewpoint is so clear and obvious that it's not understandable to me that he sticks with his viewpoint but I don't think any less of him.
Some posters like Red Arrow have also engaged in exemplary posting behaviour by reading posts providing a viewpoint and then questioning parts of the post and asking whether that it is a valid reason to give, which then allows the originating poster to expand upon their post and explain their viewpoint further and has done so for both sides of the argument.
But then you get your posts, which as I just posted, contain only sarcastic comments suggesting people are hiding up skirts, are school children or insinuating people get erections over 0.49%, which do not contribute anything to the discussion.
Not sure why you think I know nothing about it. I'm not a subject matter expert but I know enough to understand what the numbers mean, what the benefits are and how things work. In addition, the power difference is there - it was disputed and I have been providing reasons why it is there. I don't consider that willy waving just to be stating fact like that.
Willy waving to me would be saying that the PS4 is more powerful than the Xbox One haha all your games are going to look really bad because my beloved PS4 is soooooo much better haha look at my amazing games they're sooo good, enjoy your life in gaming poverty Xbox fans! ha haaaa!
Which I haven't done - and which by the way I didn't instigate - I've only tried to educate that the 40% GPU difference is there and that is doesn't relate to the end result, which people are confusing as being the same thing.
Why has the post you've quoted been removed?
Edit: Oh, you're banned......:(
Which is what you are doing.
It wasn't me before anyone thinks that! I prefer to discuss it as I did above!
Nor me, I personally I haven't a clue about the numbers but I am enjoying the back and forth.
No the games should be the most important aspect of any console.
Some of my favourite games of this generation have not been graphical power houses. I would expect see better graphics on all consoles in this upcoming generation but I want the potential of better gameplay more.