theres NO 'hate' here by non worshipers, just sane, balanced views that you dont like because it doesnt support you adoration. talk about closed minded.
some fans are herrendous, look at the gaga and christina fans waring over whos copying who.
The crying over the pedophile is a bit overrated sure...as are his later songs, they were just mediocre. But his first couple of hit albums were indeed masterful.
So, it doesn't mean anything then? Thanks for clearing that up! Why bother posting such sh*te? Please..
So anyone who remembers things that you don't is talking shite? And you wonder why MJ fans have got the reputation that they have for being blinkered? :yawn:
No it wasn't. In those days they wouldn't have just played any old black artist's video on MTV, Michael Jackson of his staus in the music industry, he was too popular and too big to be ignored, they had to play his video on MTV.
Hardly, MTV wouldn't have just chosen any artist with any song to be the first.
I agree they wouldn't have played a nobodys video and that he was big at the time but it was still all in the timing. MTV were getting a lot of flack for only playing rock type music and they needed to start to play music by black artists. Jackson was the biggest at the time and his videos werr big productions so he was the obvious choice.
However, had this all happened 5 years earlier or later, it would have been a completely different black artist who got chosen and maybe the hype would not have been so big.
So much of Jackson was anbout his showmanship rather than his songs or his vocals. Even fans must admit that he wasn't the strongest vocallist ever.
. MTV were getting a lot of flack for only playing rock type music and they needed to start to play music by black artists. Jackson was the biggest at the time and his videos werr big productions so he was the obvious choice.
However, had this all happened 5 years earlier or later, it would have been a completely different black artist who got chosen and maybe the hype would not have been so big.
.
exactly, possibly chic as they had a huge amount of respect especially for niall rogers, an artist jackson obviously was heavily influenced by.
That was about being in the right place at the right time
Possibly the lamest argument ever - you should be ashamed. Obviously in order to achieve anything great, timing will plays its part - doesn't mean those things aren't achieved.
Even fans must admit that he wasn't the strongest vocallist ever.
He might not have had the best voice, but his voice was very unique and disticnt, he has a particular style of singing that only he did. When you hear a Michael Jackson song you know that it is him straight away. This contributed to his popularity. I'm not saying it was the most important factor but it was part of it.
...So much of Jackson was anbout his showmanship rather than his songs or his vocals. Even fans must admit that he wasn't the strongest vocallist ever.
Your arguments get more and more desperate and don't make much sense. Whether it was the showmanship, dancing, songs, vocals or all of the above combined which took him to and kept him at the top - what does it matter? Having strong vocals won't guarantee you an over 40-year career in the music industry - trust me.
This debate is going to go on for as long as music preferences are different.
I think every sucessful artist helps the next one. Please stop with the 'he wasn't the first, he did nothing new', etc., it's kind of immature and does nothing for your argument. Naming people who, in your opinion, are better than him is quite petty. No one is disputing that they were not talented nor influential, it's just a different kind. You say anyone before MJ could've been like him? Well fact is, no one did so doesn't that show that he did do something new or at least took it to the next level? And the fact that no one has been able to emulate his success and recognise his talent (fan or not) should be enough proof that he set a standard.
Those who have to drag in his personal problems is just showing that you let it hinder your judgment of his music. You're just on the other end of the spectrum to the 'blinkered fans' that you must keep mentioning. You do not have a place in music history simply for having a few good pop songs.
So anyone who remembers things that you don't is talking shite? And you wonder why MJ fans have got the reputation that they have for being blinkered? :yawn:
I agree they wouldn't have played a nobodys video and that he was big at the time but it was still all in the timing. MTV were getting a lot of flack for only playing rock type music and they needed to start to play music by black artists. Jackson was the biggest at the time and his videos werr big productions so he was the obvious choice.
However, had this all happened 5 years earlier or later, it would have been a completely different black artist who got chosen and maybe the hype would not have been so big.
So much of Jackson was anbout his showmanship rather than his songs or his vocals. Even fans must admit that he wasn't the strongest vocallist ever.
A strong' vocalist? He's in the top 30 of the top 100 vocalists in Rolling Stone. He's above people like Christina Aguilera! I think he's number 25 or something like that. Your posts are tripe my friend!
Some of the responces of this thread are just unbelievable. MJ had hardly any input into the Thriller video?!?!? I honestly can't believe somebody actually posted that :eek:
They'll be saying all his sole compositions were written by ghost writers next :rolleyes: Stick to the facts guys!
I still dont get why those who dislike Michael,have to over analyse as to why/how/ Michael was succesful or who was better or who was first? etc...at the end of the day,he IS succesful. No amount of dissecting the fact is going to dispute that:rolleyes:
Your arguments get more and more desperate and don't make much sense. Whether it was the showmanship, dancing, songs, vocals or all of the above combined which took him to and kept him at the top - what does it matter? Having strong vocals won't guarantee you an over 40-year career in the music industry - trust me.
i think any rational, intelligent person reading though this thread will see who are posting well thought out, balanced, intelligent remarks and those who are not doing so...
A strong' vocalist? He's in the top 30 of the top 100 vocalists in Rolling Stone. He's above people like Christina Aguilera! I think he's number 25 or something like that. Your posts are tripe my friend!
id suggest that MIGHT be more to do about popularity then singing talent.
again id suggest that any neutral, intelligent person will see reading through this thread who is talking tripe and who is delusional.
Some of the responces of this thread are just unbelievable. MJ had hardly any input into the Thriller video?!?!? I honestly can't believe somebody actually posted that :eek:
They'll be saying all his sole compositions were written by ghost writers next :rolleyes: Stick to the facts guys!
the truth is that we will never know just who did what, choreography, vids, music... i think fans are being a little naive to think it was ALL under jackos control, 100%.
jacko is perhaps the biggest ever grossing music artist...he got there by being marketed efficiently (yes on the back of some good music). his management created or help create their cash cow. if it was in their interest to build up this person to iconic status....which they have obviously done, then crediting him with all the creational ability would only boost their icons status making them more money.
i have no doubt that jacko had input into his dancing, image, music, vids, i can accept that, but did he create everything himself? didnt he get any help from the guys wielding the purse strings? c'mon this is america! jacko was a business venture, a money making project (and im not saying theres anything wrong with that), but did this weirdo who changed his face, colour, and played games like a child with little kids REALLY be capeable of such creative genius?... never in a month of sundays.
those 'facts' you often speak about arnt facts, thats rhetoric put out by his management to build this 'star' up to iconic (cash cow) status in order to make as much money as they could. thats the reality of the music busines.
[q]Originally Posted by Taboo
I still dont get why those who dislike Michael,have to over analyse as to why/how/ Michael was succesful or who was better or who was first? etc...at the end of the day,he IS succesful. No amount of dissecting the fact is going to dispute that[/quote]
the premis for this thread was the question posed 'is mj overrated' , as this is a music forum music fans will discuss this issue. no one of us 'dislikers' has denied his success, and maybe we have the history, the referances to say why we think he is successful but overrated. by compareing him with other leading lights, something which the fans dont seem to do - they concentrate solely on jacko, we can get a better picture of the reality here.
fans say he was the best at this, the best at that, the best at the other...but when you analyise it by looking at the host of other successful black artists you see that jackos success is not unique, in fact in reality he is just another big selling artist with a devoted ban of fans.
you know, i find it very perplexing that jacko is held by some in such great esteem, because he wasnt back then! the jacko fans i knew in the 80's were just ordinary fans who liked their hero but made no claims about 'genius' or 'the best'.
i think any rational, intelligent person reading though this thread will see who are posting well thought out, balanced, intelligent remarks and those who are not doing so...
As one of those people, I fully agree. I am reading rational, well thought out, mature posts from people who recognise he was a huge talent but was overhyped and then I'm reading 'OMG haters, you are talking shite, you know nuffink; type posts from some of the fans.
Tbh mate, I'd give up. You're fighting a losing battle with those who just think the sun shone out of their idols backside (and I don't just mean MJ fans) and refuse to see any other POV except their own.
There have been many factual posts by people who were around before MJ but they are being shouted down.
Tbh, as soon as the word 'haters' is used, you know the level you're dealing with.
My posts have presented fact, and not 'oh stop being a hater and recognize' bull. What are peoples' intentions anyway? Do you want us to turn around and go 'Oh right, sorry! I was so wrong. You're right. He wasn't that great!'? I love Michael Jackson too much to stand by and let people with the wrong information bad mouth him.
They pretty much have i.e. someone else (co)wrote it, he only put his name on it. But even if he wrote it, so what? :rolleyes:
I've said this before when someone else made this point. Is this a wind up? So you are suggesting that he didn't write his songs as a negative or a dig at him/his talent, then say 'but if he did it doesn't matter anyway'? So what was the point in posting at all, because surely that means it makes no difference if he didn't write them either?
Possibly the lamest argument ever - you should be ashamed. Obviously in order to achieve anything great, timing will plays its part - doesn't mean those things aren't achieved.
The words sh!t and Sherlock spring to mind!
What exactly should I be ashamed of? So much of the Jackon hype is based on the 'first black artist to be played on MTV' line and maybe he wouldn't have been so over played in the media if someone else would have been the first.
Turning to insults and calling someone desperate just because they see things differently isn't really that contructive is it?
But then this is where i bow out because I knew this would happen as soon as i saw the thread.
The crying over the pedophile is a bit overrated sure...as are his later songs, they were just mediocre. But his first couple of hit albums were indeed masterful.
Pedophile? lol. Proof? Oh wait, there is none. In fact, proven innocent. Your bad.
And here is when there is a problem. Yes, okay, some MJ fans cannot take criticism and are overboard, and may not have rational arguments. But they are more constructive posts than calling a guy a pedophile when hes been cleared in court.
Comments
some fans are herrendous, look at the gaga and christina fans waring over whos copying who.
Anyoway totally agree.
So anyone who remembers things that you don't is talking shite? And you wonder why MJ fans have got the reputation that they have for being blinkered? :yawn:
I agree they wouldn't have played a nobodys video and that he was big at the time but it was still all in the timing. MTV were getting a lot of flack for only playing rock type music and they needed to start to play music by black artists. Jackson was the biggest at the time and his videos werr big productions so he was the obvious choice.
However, had this all happened 5 years earlier or later, it would have been a completely different black artist who got chosen and maybe the hype would not have been so big.
So much of Jackson was anbout his showmanship rather than his songs or his vocals. Even fans must admit that he wasn't the strongest vocallist ever.
exactly, possibly chic as they had a huge amount of respect especially for niall rogers, an artist jackson obviously was heavily influenced by.
The words sh!t and Sherlock spring to mind!
He might not have had the best voice, but his voice was very unique and disticnt, he has a particular style of singing that only he did. When you hear a Michael Jackson song you know that it is him straight away. This contributed to his popularity. I'm not saying it was the most important factor but it was part of it.
I think every sucessful artist helps the next one. Please stop with the 'he wasn't the first, he did nothing new', etc., it's kind of immature and does nothing for your argument. Naming people who, in your opinion, are better than him is quite petty. No one is disputing that they were not talented nor influential, it's just a different kind. You say anyone before MJ could've been like him? Well fact is, no one did so doesn't that show that he did do something new or at least took it to the next level? And the fact that no one has been able to emulate his success and recognise his talent (fan or not) should be enough proof that he set a standard.
Those who have to drag in his personal problems is just showing that you let it hinder your judgment of his music. You're just on the other end of the spectrum to the 'blinkered fans' that you must keep mentioning. You do not have a place in music history simply for having a few good pop songs.
A strong' vocalist? He's in the top 30 of the top 100 vocalists in Rolling Stone. He's above people like Christina Aguilera! I think he's number 25 or something like that. Your posts are tripe my friend!
They'll be saying all his sole compositions were written by ghost writers next :rolleyes: Stick to the facts guys!
There's. Just. No. Words.
i think any rational, intelligent person reading though this thread will see who are posting well thought out, balanced, intelligent remarks and those who are not doing so...
id suggest that MIGHT be more to do about popularity then singing talent.
again id suggest that any neutral, intelligent person will see reading through this thread who is talking tripe and who is delusional.
the truth is that we will never know just who did what, choreography, vids, music... i think fans are being a little naive to think it was ALL under jackos control, 100%.
jacko is perhaps the biggest ever grossing music artist...he got there by being marketed efficiently (yes on the back of some good music). his management created or help create their cash cow. if it was in their interest to build up this person to iconic status....which they have obviously done, then crediting him with all the creational ability would only boost their icons status making them more money.
i have no doubt that jacko had input into his dancing, image, music, vids, i can accept that, but did he create everything himself? didnt he get any help from the guys wielding the purse strings? c'mon this is america! jacko was a business venture, a money making project (and im not saying theres anything wrong with that), but did this weirdo who changed his face, colour, and played games like a child with little kids REALLY be capeable of such creative genius?... never in a month of sundays.
those 'facts' you often speak about arnt facts, thats rhetoric put out by his management to build this 'star' up to iconic (cash cow) status in order to make as much money as they could. thats the reality of the music busines.
I'm torn between very, very scary, and very sad.....
I still dont get why those who dislike Michael,have to over analyse as to why/how/ Michael was succesful or who was better or who was first? etc...at the end of the day,he IS succesful. No amount of dissecting the fact is going to dispute that[/quote]
the premis for this thread was the question posed 'is mj overrated' , as this is a music forum music fans will discuss this issue. no one of us 'dislikers' has denied his success, and maybe we have the history, the referances to say why we think he is successful but overrated. by compareing him with other leading lights, something which the fans dont seem to do - they concentrate solely on jacko, we can get a better picture of the reality here.
fans say he was the best at this, the best at that, the best at the other...but when you analyise it by looking at the host of other successful black artists you see that jackos success is not unique, in fact in reality he is just another big selling artist with a devoted ban of fans.
you know, i find it very perplexing that jacko is held by some in such great esteem, because he wasnt back then! the jacko fans i knew in the 80's were just ordinary fans who liked their hero but made no claims about 'genius' or 'the best'.
As one of those people, I fully agree. I am reading rational, well thought out, mature posts from people who recognise he was a huge talent but was overhyped and then I'm reading 'OMG haters, you are talking shite, you know nuffink; type posts from some of the fans.
Tbh mate, I'd give up. You're fighting a losing battle with those who just think the sun shone out of their idols backside (and I don't just mean MJ fans) and refuse to see any other POV except their own.
There have been many factual posts by people who were around before MJ but they are being shouted down.
Tbh, as soon as the word 'haters' is used, you know the level you're dealing with.
I've said this before when someone else made this point. Is this a wind up?
What exactly should I be ashamed of? So much of the Jackon hype is based on the 'first black artist to be played on MTV' line and maybe he wouldn't have been so over played in the media if someone else would have been the first.
Turning to insults and calling someone desperate just because they see things differently isn't really that contructive is it?
But then this is where i bow out because I knew this would happen as soon as i saw the thread.
Pedophile? lol. Proof? Oh wait, there is none. In fact, proven innocent. Your bad.
And here is when there is a problem. Yes, okay, some MJ fans cannot take criticism and are overboard, and may not have rational arguments. But they are more constructive posts than calling a guy a pedophile when hes been cleared in court.