So much logic in fact, you virtually disappear up your own fundament,
Untangling what you say, we actually agree, to the extent that I repeat (yet again) that not all anti zionists are anti Semites and I'm not suggesting all criticism of Israel be shut down.
I am saying that many who criticise Israel under cover of anti Zionism are, in fact, anti Semitic, including certain members of this forum. And no, I'm not about to start a flame war by naming names. I think you know all too well who they are. But the author of the piece I quoted (and very many others including Martin Luther King, unless and of course you feel he also lacked "logic") agree.
You should be very careful whom you choose to align yourself with and those whose, shall we say "peccadillos", you choose to ignore, both on this forum and in real life, simply to make your point.
You've come out with this line before.
I find it supremely ironic considering the number of far Right posters on here who have supported Israel over the last weeks - but nary a word of complaint against them from you.
I find it supremely ironic considering the number of far Right posters on here who have supported Israel over the last weeks - but nary a word of complaint against them from you.
That's really not true; I recall one supposed EDL member ages ago and another who seemed to hold political views somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan and seemed to get off on wishing harm to Muslims, neither of whom I agreed with. I told the latter as much, on more than one occasion.
You, on the other hand, will never say more than that you accept the "existence" of Israel and the need for some unspecified two state solution. Forgive me for being cynical, but I suspect its one that offers Israel little by way of long term security.
So much logic in fact, you virtually disappear up your own fundament,
Untangling what you say, we actually agree, to the extent that I repeat (yet again) that not all anti zionists are anti Semites and I'm not suggesting all criticism of Israel be shut down.
I am saying that many who criticise Israel under cover of anti Zionism are, in fact, anti Semitic, including certain members of this forum. And no, I'm not about to start a flame war by naming names. I think you know all too well who they are. But the author of the piece I quoted (and very many others including Martin Luther King, unless and of course you feel he also lacked "logic") agree.
You should be very careful whom you choose to align yourself with and those whose, shall we say "peccadillos", you choose to ignore, both on this forum and in real life, simply to make your point.
Your last paragraph is doing exactly what you claim not to be doing. Why do I need to be careful who I align myself with? I haven't aligned myself with anyone by criticising Israel, I have just given my views.
You are saying that criticism of Israel makes you part of the anti-Semitic crowd, which is trying to shut down debate.
Hitler was kind to animals (reportedly), but I don't think the RSPCA needs to worry about aligning itself with Nazis.
You should be very careful whom you choose to align yourself with and those whose, shall we say "peccadillos", you choose to ignore, both on this forum and in real life, simply to make your point.
The cat is black, the dog is black therefore the cat is a dog.
You don't have to dig very deep to find anti semitism do you?
Edit. on reflection , the correct term is rampant anti semitism.
Absolute twaddle!
Palestinians are semites, indigenous of the middle east. How many Israelis can say that they are semites? I'd go so far as to say that it is Israelis who are rampant anti-semites in their hatred of Palestinians.
Your last paragraph is doing exactly what you claim not to be doing. Why do I need to be careful who I align myself with? I haven't aligned myself with anyone by criticising Israel, I have just given my views.
You are saying that criticism of Israel makes you part of the anti-Semitic crowd, which is trying to shut down debate.
Hitler was kind to animals (reportedly), but I don't think the RSPCA needs to worry about aligning itself with Nazis.
Yes, but your criticisms are rather selective and to extent your analogy, you won't find members of the RSPCA contributing to stormfront.
I don't see you or any of your colleagues starting and maintaining endless repetitive threads about the numerous atrocities being committed on a daily basis by ISIS, Islamic State or whatever they're selling themselves this week.
Or even criticising Hamas for randomly executing dozens of their own citizens. Or firing thousands
And (for the third time) I am not suggesting any criticism of Israel renders you anti Semitic. I am suggesting that this and similar threads are maintained by a combination of hard core anti Semites, ably if unintentionally assisted by by a strange and uncomfortable alliance of socialists, Marxists, well meaning liberals and other useful idiots.
Yes, but your criticisms are rather selective and to extent your analogy, you won't find members of the RSPCA contributing to stormfront.
I don't see you or any of your colleagues starting and maintaining endless repetitive threads about the numerous atrocities being committed on a daily basis by ISIS, Islamic State or whatever they're selling themselves this week.
Or even criticising Hamas for randomly executing dozens of their own citizens. Or firing thousands
And (for the third time) I am not suggesting any criticism of Israel renders you anti Semitic. I am suggesting that this and similar threads are maintained by a combination of hard core anti Semites, ably if unintentionally assisted by by a strange and uncomfortable alliance of socialists, Marxists, well meaning liberals and other useful idiots.
Nonsense and I hope the mods deal with this like they seem to criticism of Israel, but I doubt it...
Yes, but your criticisms are rather selective and to extent your analogy, you won't find members of the RSPCA contributing to stormfront.
I don't see you or any of your colleagues starting and maintaining endless repetitive threads about the numerous atrocities being committed on a daily basis by ISIS, Islamic State or whatever they're selling themselves this week.
Or even criticising Hamas for randomly executing dozens of their own citizens. Or firing thousands
And (for the third time) I am not suggesting any criticism of Israel renders you anti Semitic. I am suggesting that this and similar threads are maintained by a combination of hard core anti Semites, ably if unintentionally assisted by by a strange and uncomfortable alliance of socialists, Marxists, well meaning liberals and other useful idiots.
What you fail to accept is that ISIS, and various terrorist factions around the world, are lawless thugs acting in their own warped interests. They are not like Israel, which is a democratically and recognised state by the world. That makes what Israel does official. ISIS and the likes are acting for nobody but themselves.
There have been condemnation of ISIS but who would you boycott, lobby, criticise or protest against? It is not a recognised state or country, Israel purports to be but acts just as wantonly.
That's really not true; I recall one supposed EDL member ages ago and another who seemed to hold political views somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan and seemed to get off on wishing harm to Muslims, neither of whom I agreed with. I told the latter as much, on more than one occasion.
You, on the other hand, will never say more than that you accept the "existence" of Israel and the need for some unspecified two state solution. Forgive me for being cynical, but I suspect its one that offers Israel little by way of long term security.
Why put existence in inverted commas?
I support the right of Israel to exist in peace, just as I support the right of Palestine to be a fully recognised state that can also live in peace.
The trouble with you is that you see hidden agendas and lurking anti-Semitism everywhere.
Yes, but your criticisms are rather selective and to extent your analogy, you won't find members of the RSPCA contributing to stormfront.
I don't see you or any of your colleagues starting and maintaining endless repetitive threads about the numerous atrocities being committed on a daily basis by ISIS, Islamic State or whatever they're selling themselves this week.
Or even criticising Hamas for randomly executing dozens of their own citizens. Or firing thousands
And (for the third time) I am not suggesting any criticism of Israel renders you anti Semitic. I am suggesting that this and similar threads are maintained by a combination of hard core anti Semites, ably if unintentionally assisted by by a strange and uncomfortable alliance of socialists, Marxists, well meaning liberals and other useful idiots.
I can only speak for myself and know I have condemned both ISIS and Hamas. I'm still waiting for Israel supporters to admit the IDF has done one tiny thing wrong, which I find amazing.
Palestinians are semites, indigenous of the middle east. How many Israelis can say that they are semites? I'd go so far as to say that it is Israelis who are rampant anti-semites in their hatred of Palestinians.
It must be why Jordan, Qatar and Syria refuse them citizenship.
There has been Jewish families in Israel for 1000' of years and some communities never left despite being persecuted by Islam, Romans and other empires.
Why is the West Bank and Gaza shunned by the Arab League who make sure people can't leave.
Except that you do. You don't like it that the British public now look at the Israel government as it would some backward third world government.
I'm Jewish, not Israeli.
I've only been there once, 34 years ago.
I've no particular inclination to return and there's plenty I don't like about its current policy toward Gaza, as I've said on many, many occasions.
But that policy will never change, as long as the Palestinians keep electing and supporting people who want to wipe Israel off the map. Further, as the most recent episode of this conflict has illustrated, this will never happen, in the lifetime of anyone currently living on this planet, if ever. Jews with guns. Makes people real nervous.
Gaza's redemption lies in its own hands. Sensible representation will bring an Israeli government willing and able to negotiate peace.
I find the persistent refusal of virtually every single pro Palestinian poster to (1) condemn Hamas, (2) accept Israel's right to exist (3) disown posters posting to and peddling virulent anti semitism of the sort to which I have referred, depressing but predictable.
They say every Jew keeps a suitcase packed, metaphorically, for the day "they" come.
There was a very interesting letter in the Times making precisely this point on Saturday.
You should read it. It explains, in a few lines, why Israel behaves as is does and why that suitcase remains packed, somewhere, in the corner of my brain.
"People like you," he said to me almost 30 years ago, "who want Israel to go on behaving like a European society, are heading for disappointment. Israel is becoming a Middle Eastern country. In future, I hope that it will not behave worse than other Middle Eastern countries, but I doubt that it will behave any better."
I can only speak for myself and know I have condemned both ISIS and Hamas. I'm still waiting for Israel supporters to admit the IDF has done one tiny thing wrong, which I find amazing.
No problem, I admit (for example) that Israel "over pressed" it's advantage in the present conflict. The "targeted" rocket attackers should no have stopped a week before they did. The point was made and the conflict was won. Every subsequent rocket was (I think) pointless and destructive, of both the Gazan population and Israel's international standing.
I'd also much prefer a government led by someone other than Bibi but as I've said, on numerous occasions, it's a government of war, This is what they do, win wars. To win the peace, there has to be a partner. Hams isn't it.
They say every Jew keeps a suitcase packed, metaphorically, for the day "they" come.
There was a very interesting letter in the Times making precisely this point on Saturday.
Was that the one from Danny Finkelstein? If so you didn't understand what he said
"This is a great country to live in and in many ways it is getting better. After all, Sainsbury’s in Holborn even has a kosher food counter that it can close down. Yet most of us Jews, wherever we are in the world, have a niggling feeling that perhaps it might be a good idea to keep a suitcase packed, and many of us have had, at least once, a conversation about where we would go if we had to.
"I don’t have such a suitcase. I won’t need it, I know I won’t. But If I told you that I didn’t understand it, I’d be lying."
I've no particular inclination to return and there's plenty I don't like about its current policy toward Gaza, as I've said on many, many occasions.
But that policy will never change, as long as the Palestinians keep electing and supporting people who want to wipe Israel off the map. Further, as the most recent episode of this conflict has illustrated, this will never happen, in the lifetime of anyone currently living on this planet, if ever. Jews with guns. Makes people real nervous.
Gaza's redemption lies in its own hands. Sensible representation will bring an Israeli government willing and able to negotiate peace.
I find the persistent refusal of virtually every single pro Palestinian poster to (1) condemn Hamas, (2) accept Israel's right to exist (3) disown posters posting to and peddling virulent anti semitism of the sort to which I have referred, depressing but predictable.
They say every Jew keeps a suitcase packed, metaphorically, for the day "they" come.
There was a very interesting letter in the Times making precisely this point on Saturday.
You should read it. It explains, in a few lines, why Israel behaves as is does and why that suitcase remains packed, somewhere, in the corner of my brain.
I support the right of Israel to exist in peace, just as I support the right of Palestine to be a fully recognised state that can also live in peace.
The trouble with you is that you see hidden agendas and lurking anti-Semitism everywhere.
The trouble with you is that you can't see past the religion, the "Jewishness" of the state, because of your left wing political views.
That's fine, I'm no great fan of religious government either (although Israel's is really secular as you know) but I don't think anything you've ever posted suggests you WANT Israel to exist.
Ergo, any solution you envisage, anything you might support, would (I think) anticipate an end to the current status quo.
And any outcome which doesn't anticipate and indeed guarantee Israel's continued right to exist, as such, will not find favour within Israel, or with me.
Comments
Playing the victim card eh? That's what really hurts doesn't it- that the victim card can no longer be played with impunity here in the UK?
You've come out with this line before.
I find it supremely ironic considering the number of far Right posters on here who have supported Israel over the last weeks - but nary a word of complaint against them from you.
You mean not necessarily accepting the pronouncements of the likes of Mark Regev as statements of fact, presumably?
Do you know what the job of a journalist entails?
That's really not true; I recall one supposed EDL member ages ago and another who seemed to hold political views somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan and seemed to get off on wishing harm to Muslims, neither of whom I agreed with. I told the latter as much, on more than one occasion.
You, on the other hand, will never say more than that you accept the "existence" of Israel and the need for some unspecified two state solution. Forgive me for being cynical, but I suspect its one that offers Israel little by way of long term security.
That works out as 1,027 people out of 1,658 asked out of a population of about 67 million. Rubbish survey which doesn't mean anything.
How many people didn't even like Israel before they were asked?
Your last paragraph is doing exactly what you claim not to be doing. Why do I need to be careful who I align myself with? I haven't aligned myself with anyone by criticising Israel, I have just given my views.
You are saying that criticism of Israel makes you part of the anti-Semitic crowd, which is trying to shut down debate.
Hitler was kind to animals (reportedly), but I don't think the RSPCA needs to worry about aligning itself with Nazis.
Yes, well. You don't like us, we don't care...
Absolute twaddle!
Palestinians are semites, indigenous of the middle east. How many Israelis can say that they are semites? I'd go so far as to say that it is Israelis who are rampant anti-semites in their hatred of Palestinians.
Been reading too much Dr Zeuss?
Try this in relation to your attitude to Israel...
"So all we could do was to
Sit!
Sit!
Sit!
Sit!
And we did not like it.
Not one little bit"
Yes, but your criticisms are rather selective and to extent your analogy, you won't find members of the RSPCA contributing to stormfront.
I don't see you or any of your colleagues starting and maintaining endless repetitive threads about the numerous atrocities being committed on a daily basis by ISIS, Islamic State or whatever they're selling themselves this week.
Or even criticising Hamas for randomly executing dozens of their own citizens. Or firing thousands
And (for the third time) I am not suggesting any criticism of Israel renders you anti Semitic. I am suggesting that this and similar threads are maintained by a combination of hard core anti Semites, ably if unintentionally assisted by by a strange and uncomfortable alliance of socialists, Marxists, well meaning liberals and other useful idiots.
Nonsense and I hope the mods deal with this like they seem to criticism of Israel, but I doubt it...
What you fail to accept is that ISIS, and various terrorist factions around the world, are lawless thugs acting in their own warped interests. They are not like Israel, which is a democratically and recognised state by the world. That makes what Israel does official. ISIS and the likes are acting for nobody but themselves.
There have been condemnation of ISIS but who would you boycott, lobby, criticise or protest against? It is not a recognised state or country, Israel purports to be but acts just as wantonly.
Except that you do. You don't like it that the British public now look at the Israel government as it would some backward third world government.
Why put existence in inverted commas?
I support the right of Israel to exist in peace, just as I support the right of Palestine to be a fully recognised state that can also live in peace.
The trouble with you is that you see hidden agendas and lurking anti-Semitism everywhere.
I can only speak for myself and know I have condemned both ISIS and Hamas. I'm still waiting for Israel supporters to admit the IDF has done one tiny thing wrong, which I find amazing.
It must be why Jordan, Qatar and Syria refuse them citizenship.
There has been Jewish families in Israel for 1000' of years and some communities never left despite being persecuted by Islam, Romans and other empires.
Why is the West Bank and Gaza shunned by the Arab League who make sure people can't leave.
I'm Jewish, not Israeli.
I've only been there once, 34 years ago.
I've no particular inclination to return and there's plenty I don't like about its current policy toward Gaza, as I've said on many, many occasions.
But that policy will never change, as long as the Palestinians keep electing and supporting people who want to wipe Israel off the map. Further, as the most recent episode of this conflict has illustrated, this will never happen, in the lifetime of anyone currently living on this planet, if ever. Jews with guns. Makes people real nervous.
Gaza's redemption lies in its own hands. Sensible representation will bring an Israeli government willing and able to negotiate peace.
I find the persistent refusal of virtually every single pro Palestinian poster to (1) condemn Hamas, (2) accept Israel's right to exist (3) disown posters posting to and peddling virulent anti semitism of the sort to which I have referred, depressing but predictable.
They say every Jew keeps a suitcase packed, metaphorically, for the day "they" come.
There was a very interesting letter in the Times making precisely this point on Saturday.
You should read it. It explains, in a few lines, why Israel behaves as is does and why that suitcase remains packed, somewhere, in the corner of my brain.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/jun/20/israel
No problem, I admit (for example) that Israel "over pressed" it's advantage in the present conflict. The "targeted" rocket attackers should no have stopped a week before they did. The point was made and the conflict was won. Every subsequent rocket was (I think) pointless and destructive, of both the Gazan population and Israel's international standing.
I'd also much prefer a government led by someone other than Bibi but as I've said, on numerous occasions, it's a government of war, This is what they do, win wars. To win the peace, there has to be a partner. Hams isn't it.
Are you being serious here? No, you can't be.
The trouble with you is that you can't see past the religion, the "Jewishness" of the state, because of your left wing political views.
That's fine, I'm no great fan of religious government either (although Israel's is really secular as you know) but I don't think anything you've ever posted suggests you WANT Israel to exist.
Ergo, any solution you envisage, anything you might support, would (I think) anticipate an end to the current status quo.
And any outcome which doesn't anticipate and indeed guarantee Israel's continued right to exist, as such, will not find favour within Israel, or with me.