[MartinP]

Originally Posted by GreatGodPan

1. No, I said parents who subscribe to a religion and let the dictats of that religion decide the morals and beliefs of their childen do not decide such beliefs themselves - how can they? They are letting the religion do it for them.

You can tell your children it's wrong to steal, kill, lie from the teachings of the bible or from your own experiences and morals. I fail to get excited if this comes from one book in particular.

Originally Posted by GreatGodPan

2. You still haven't said what religion you and your children follow - I mean, you do have children don't you, considering the high-handed "I can tell you don't have children" and "you have little experience of children" line you have taken towards me on this thread? Why so reticent?

I'm not going into further detail, but it was very clear that you'd not had children and were not close to children as you clearly don't know how they grown up.

Originally Posted by GreatGodPan

3. I am not concerned about the performance of conditioned children in faith schools.

Of course you aren't because the picture it paints is a very positive one. If there had been a negative outcome to bringing up children in a religious setting I rather think you'd consider it much more important.

So let's remind ourselves that children brought up within a religious setting are more clever, do better at school, have fewer mental problems, don't abuse substances as much and are more healthy.

And you want to ban parents from religious teaching that leads to a much better outcome overall for their children? And you speak of dogma?

Originally Posted by GreatGodPan

As far as I am concerned they encourage separatism, distrust and elitism. We should have all-inclusive high-quality secular education .

Elitism? How dare we want children to excel at education!

Originally Posted by GreatGodPan

4. What do you think the miners did to their toddlers during the miners strike then? Enrolled them in the Communist Party?

No, but I am sure they were spewing out hatred against the government of the day around their children. According to your opinions this would wrong and should be banned.

[SULLA]

Originally Posted by PrestonAl

maybe homophobic?

Maybe. Maybe not. The poster has declined to explain

Originally Posted by James2001

If it's like the one I had to suffer a few weeks ago, it was all about how we're sinners, we need to be saved to get into heaven, other religions are wrong, blah, blah, blah, which he talked about for longer than he ws talking about the person whose funeral it was. Both nasty and disrespectful at the same time. Nobody else there had ever been to a funeral where they'd been preached at before. I'm sure vangies and fundies can't see the problem with it, but everyone else can.

You are not preached at. You are preached to

I went to a funeral the week before last. It was not declared to be a humant funeral but there was no preaching. No hymns and no prayers. There was some time set aside for everyone to do their own thing.

I have been to a lot of funerals but I have yet to hear any serious preaching

I'm sure they thought they were preaching the "rightous message" and the "good news", but instead they angered people (several said they wanted to stand up and say something) and left me upset about the situation for several days. It's not as if the person who's funeral it was even went to that church, or would have approved of what was preached- her oldest daugher insisted on getting her church invovled once she was to ill to make decisions for herself (when she was well, she wanted an Anglican service, and was seeing the hospital chaplain), which has just pushed me away from religion even further. Just a horrible disrespect to a person's memory.

It certainly seems to be a service for the living as it's too late for the dead anyway.

[GreatGodPan]

Originally Posted by MartinP

You can tell your children it's wrong to steal, kill, lie from the teachings of the bible or from your own experiences and morals. I fail to get excited if this comes from one book in particular.


I'm not going into further detail, but it was very clear that you'd not had children and were not close to children as you clearly don't know how they grown up.



Of course you aren't because the picture it paints is a very positive one. If there had been a negative outcome to bringing up children in a religious setting I rather think you'd consider it much more important.

So let's remind ourselves that children brought up within a religious setting are more clever, do better at school, have fewer mental problems, don't abuse substances as much and are more healthy.

And you want to ban parents from religious teaching that leads to a much better outcome overall for their children? And you speak of dogma?



Elitism? How dare we want children to excel at education!


No, but I am sure they were spewing out hatred against the government of the day around their children. According to your opinions this would wrong and should be banned.

1. Are you seriously suggesting that various religious texts of the world don't teach the worship of a superhuman being - before kids can reason for themselves? And some of these are very vindictive gods too.

2. Whaaatt?? "I'm not going into further detail"??? Why not? Are you saying you haven't got kids either, and yet I (although being quite a bit older than you) know nothing of them and you do? And the cod psychology too! Really, Martin, you surpass yourself in arrogance on this one!

And why so coy on divulging your religion?

It seems to me you like to know all about people you discuss with on here but do not want to let us know some pretty basic stuff on yourself - the stuff that colours those views.

Curiouser and curiouser.

3. "Children brought up in a religious setting are more clever"??
Again, nonsense. Cleverness, like intelligence, isn't about passing exams - it is something innate. And most kids are brought up in a religious setting at school - that is my gripe, so presumably you are saying all kids are clever - a pretty meaningless statement.

4. You want a minority to excel. I want an excellent standard of education for all based on a secular education, not having several schools in the same road, one C of E, one Catholic, one Muslim, one Jewish all breaking the children into little religious groups.

5. "Spewing out hatred"? Just what have you got against miners? Is this prejudice a result of your marvellous religious-themed education?

Not a very good advert for your religion is it - whatever it is? Must be those vindictive gods I was referring to.......

[Judge Mental]

Originally Posted by zackai48

Surely, to avoid damnation is a good thing. Though you may not believe in sin, it does exist.

How can one avoid something which doesn't exist - it's an idea, a concept, a belief.

The same as sin - it's a human construct. It means what people choose to have it mean. And it exists only for those who choose to believe it.

It means nothing to those who don't believe in supernatural power.

It can't be a good thing if it isn't a thing at all.

[MartinP]

Originally Posted by GreatGodPan

1. Are you seriously suggesting that various religious texts of the world don't teach the worship of a superhuman being - before kids can reason for themselves? And some of these are very vindictive gods too.

I can't see how this is in any way a reply to the part you highlighted. You're just getting agitated and annoyed that kids are being brought up with a moral code that is partly linked to a religious text rather than having one from parental experience outside of religion. It doesn’t bother me. We’re just going to have to leave it at that.

A question for you - do you think the books of CS Lewis should not be given to Children as there are significant religious undertones to his work?

Originally Posted by GreatGodPan

2. Whaaatt?? "I'm not going into further detail"??? Why not? Are you saying you haven't got kids either, and yet I (although being quite a bit older than you) know nothing of them and you do? And the cod psychology too! Really, Martin, you surpass yourself in arrogance on this one!

And why so coy on divulging your religion?

It seems to me you like to know all about people you discuss with on here but do not want to let us know some pretty basic stuff on yourself - the stuff that colours those views.

Sometimes I ask questions of people, sometimes they give me answers. Likewise I give out certain bits of info and sometimes I don't. It appears that my cod psychology was on the money. Perhaps it annoys you that you are so easy to read

Originally Posted by GreatGodPan

3. "Children brought up in a religious setting are more clever"??
Again, nonsense. Cleverness, like intelligence, isn't about passing exams - it is something innate. And most kids are brought up in a religious setting at school - that is my gripe, so presumably you are saying all kids are clever - a pretty meaningless statement.

Children from religious backgrounds perform better in schools, there has been plenty of research done in the US and of course the stats in UK schools show the same positive correlation.

Not to mention mental health, substance abuse, physical health and all the other posiitives I mentioned in the report.

Originally Posted by GreatGodPan

4. You want a minority to excel. I want an excellent standard of education for all based on a secular education, not having several schools in the same road, one C of E, one Catholic, one Muslim, one Jewish all breaking the children into little religious groups.

If not all can be excellent, none shall be is your mantra, that's very clear. Typical left-wing envy.

Originally Posted by GreatGodPan

5. "Spewing out hatred"? Just what have you got against miners? Is this prejudice a result of your marvellous religious-themed education?

Not a very good advert for your religion is it - whatever it is? Must be those vindictive gods I was referring to.......

Now I think it's just hot toddy talking.

[MartinP]

And even famous Socialists make use of our excellent public school system:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...hool-fees.html

"ashamed" but still paying the fees....

Oh and "our Mel" loves it...


Hypocrisy of the rich liberals who buy their way out of the schools calamity their dogma created

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...#ixzz22kWiXxYm

[GreatGodPan]

Originally Posted by MartinP

I can't see how this is in any way a reply to the part you highlighted. You're just getting agitated and annoyed that kids are being brought up with a moral code that is partly linked to a religious text rather than having one from parental experience outside of religion. It doesn’t bother me. We’re just going to have to leave it at that.

A question for you - do you think the books of CS Lewis should not be given to Children as there are significant religious undertones to his work?


Sometimes I ask questions of people, sometimes they give me answers. Likewise I give out certain bits of info and sometimes I don't. It appears that my cod psychology was on the money. Perhaps it annoys you that you are so easy to read



Children from religious backgrounds perform better in schools, there has been plenty of research done in the US and of course the stats in UK schools show the same positive correlation.

Not to mention mental health, substance abuse, physical health and all the other posiitives I mentioned in the report.



If not all can be excellent, none shall be is your mantra, that's very clear. Typical left-wing envy.


Now I think it's just hot toddy talking.

1. I know it doesn't bother you. Which is why so many kids are subjected to religious conditioning from the moment of their birth, due to the laissez faire attitude of their (probably conditioned) parents.

2. Regarding CSL, I have said all along that I want children to be taught about religion - but young children can read the Narnia books without worshipping the Christian god and enjoy them for the enjoyable tales that they are, as many non-Christian children do now.

By the time children read the science fiction titles they will be of an age to start deciding for themselves the applicability of any "message" (as I did).

3. This is the real cop-out on your part, of course. You accuse me in quite nasty terms for not knowing anything about children because I do not have any of my own (which you claim invalidates my opinions) yet you will not even say if you have kids and even what religion you are.

In such a discussion as this when you take that personal tack if you will not share your basic situation with the people you insult it is a very poor show, and maybe you should not have participated in it in the first place.

4. What do you mean by a child from a religious background? Conditioned at home and at a place of worship as well as at school?

5. The religious conditioning of children does not produce excellence - are you saying that if all kids are conditioned thus all will be excellent?

Seems a pretty dystopian future we've got to look forward to if you have your way - we want children to challenge the beliefs of their parents for them to achieve true individuation, not a load of kids who will be conditioned from the cradle to "obey". Very North Korean.

Still love the miners parents "spewing out hatred" line, by the way.

Classic.