Refused permision to take child on holiday during term time!

[Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 949
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Well we still intend to take her all the same but this is where we are at and I know the subject is nothing new.

When we moved to where we are and chose the daughters school we checked as part of that process about the policy of taking holidays during term time as due to very limited income term time really is the only time we can afford a 1 week family holiday a year. The school she is now at had a somewhat more relaxed policy at the time. So I was very surprised today after asking for the leave during term time for a week off for our 4 year old daughter to be refused.

Seems they have changed there policy in just the last month where they now no longer authorise any holidays!. The general reasoning in the change of policy seems to be due to general poor attendances and people taking 2-3 weeks family holidays during the school year.

Our daughter falls into neither of these, she has only had 2 1/2 days illness in the last year, been in every single day since and we are only asking for 5 days not 10 or 15 days which some have took in the past. We cant afford to go at any other time due to limited income and besides the holiday was booked at a time where we would have got permission and it is as much an educational holiday for our daugher than sitting round a pool in Devon for the week. I intend writing a letter back to the head teacher for monday outlining our position and situation and again asking for authorisation otherwise they can take the letter as a notification instead

We are still going reguardless but the schools letter makes it clear we risk a fine or court action if we take her anyway.

I know of the more recent fine issue etc. But it's hardly a sit around the pool holiday, we will be out most days showing the daughter round different places, so as much of an education as she would ever get sat in a classroom. But I feel it's a bit out of order for the school to have this attitude when firstly she is only 4 years old (will be 5 soon) and the decision seems to have been taken based on those who have poor attendance yet still take 2-3 weeks holidays during term time in the past.

Is it just me or are we being refused due to people who have took the pi$$ in the past when it should be fine barring 2 1/2 days illness and perfect attendance besides that to be able to take just those asked for 5 days, more so at only 4 years old?.
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Comments

  • TWSTWS Posts: 9,307
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    considering legally your daughter doesnt have to be in school until the term after her 5th birthday i find that hard to believe
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 6,126
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    Your approach seems perfectly reasonable to me....I suppose you could also ask for a meeting with the head teacher as well......A blanket NO policy seems a bit excessive to me......but I do understand why schools have to implement some policy regarding term time holiday absence.....If your reasonable...then I can`t see why the school can`t be.
  • shmiskshmisk Posts: 7,963
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    I think its to do with OFSTED scoring

    I know no one is allowed in my sons school either

    and if attendance is low then the parents get a letter
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 8,145
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    TWS wrote: »
    considering legally your daughter doesnt have to be in school until the term after her 5th birthday i find that hard to believe

    I thought that was term after 4th birthday?

    op- its annoying i agree - but its not the school but the council/authority that push this now (afik) - its becoming standard across the system now, as children are missing too much school.

    but i'm sure if you talk to them and explain that you booked it as you didn't know about the change in rules, they might allow it this once.
  • TWSTWS Posts: 9,307
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    bazaar1 wrote: »
    I thought that was term after 4th birthday?

    op- its annoying i agree - but its not the school but the council/authority that push this now (afik) - its becoming standard across the system now, as children are missing too much school.

    but i'm sure if you talk to them and explain that you booked it as you didn't know about the change in rules, they might allow it this once.

    not according to my council got the leaflet here confirming my sons place for september at my requested school saying i can defer his place until the term after his 5th birthday which would be around april 2013
  • frisky pythonfrisky python Posts: 9,737
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    Reading here its says parents do not have an automatic right to take their children out of school for holidays.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,479
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    bazaar1 wrote: »
    I thought that was term after 4th birthday?

    op- its annoying i agree - but its not the school but the council/authority that push this now (afik) - its becoming standard across the system now, as children are missing too much school.

    but i'm sure if you talk to them and explain that you booked it as you didn't know about the change in rules, they might allow it this once.

    I think all children are offered a place for the september after their 4th birthday but legally they dont have to go until they are 5.

    OP - try the reasonable approach but if not just do it. She wont miss anything at this age.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 8,145
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    TWS wrote: »
    not according to my council got the leaflet here confirming my sons place for september at my requested school saying i can defer his place until the term after his 5th birthday which would be around april 2013
    jude1979 wrote: »
    I think all children are offered a place for the september after their 4th birthday but legally they dont have to go until they are 5.

    OP - try the reasonable approach but if not just do it. She wont miss anything at this age.

    never knew that! you learn something everyday!

    op- agree with the reasonable approach, my son's school allow me to take him out for the last week of summer term each year due to compulsary work experience for uni (I go down south so cant leave him!) - but it took alot of explaining. I doubt they will let you do it every year but maybe for once it'll be looked over.

    If you do take her out without permission be aware they DO enforce the fines, a friend got a bill for £120 per child, per parent at home, per week and she has twins :eek: :eek: refused to pay it and after a long argument ended up with a court summons. She's still trying to fight it, but due in court soon!
  • daisyduck1976daisyduck1976 Posts: 1,166
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    This is a tricky one. I am a primary teacher. A few things:

    1) Most schools HATE dealing with this issue. As people who can only have school holiday holidays ourselves (for obvious reasons!), we know how expensive holidays are in the peak periods and we completely sympathise with the desire to have a family holiday without bankrupting yourself. In the current climate, it's even more uncomfortable to have the "please reconsider" conversation.

    2) Schools get beaten with the absence figures by the LA, Ofsted and the Dfe. My school has been graded outstanding for their last 3 inspections- only thing they got a lower grade for every time? Attendance. Target every time? Improve attendance figures. Unfortunately, unless we go hardline on term-time holidays we can't. That's where almost all our absence comes from.

    3) Michael Gove and the DfE are making this issue very high priority. Schools used to have guidance telling them that it was reasonable to authorise 10 school days a year for family holiday. We have been told that this is no longer the expectation and we must play our part in making parents see that they don't have the right to remove their child from school for a holiday.

    4) the other posters who point out that your child doesn't legally have to be in school until they turn 5 are correct. My school has a policy of being softer on Foundation Stage absence levels for this reason. However, we are wondering about changing this approach because many of our FS pupils have attendance below 80%. In several cases each year, it's well below, due to extended holidays.

    So, what I would say is- don't get angry with the school. They are forced into having this attitude or they face consequences themselves.

    If you really want to go on the holiday, do it and deal with whatever comes your way. If you're confident that it won't affect her learning and may in fact help in that area, then go with that.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 469
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    I love comments such as children don't legally have to attend school until whatever age or parents do not automatically have the right to term-time holidays, forgetting that parents do have the absolute right to just unrole the child from the school, guaranteeing a loss of 'per client' revenue to that particular establishment and as it is a legal duty UPON THE STATE to provide free education IF WANTED BY THE PARENTS, they cannot stop you signing up for another school (or even the same one) after the holiday ends.

    Admittedly lots of paperwork but legally: Simples!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 949
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    Thanks for the replies, it sure has given me a few things to think about when replying to the head teacher. To be honest the letter off the school just looks like a standard template letter stating a change of policy which makes me think they have not even looked into issues of attendance or asking for any futher details, basically a refusal without even looking at the request. Prehaps they have not even bothered to check what year she is in or her age seeing as they must be aware that she legally does not have to attend school untill she turns 5 in june.

    The issue of not having to legaly attend school anyway untill she is 5 years old is something I never knew of either and might as well mention that in my reply at some point, in a polite way of cause seeing as I'm not getting into a ping-pong letter game with the school poiting out different issues each time.

    .Thanks again and I'll be sure to take a polite route with them in my reply.
  • Cantona07Cantona07 Posts: 56,910
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    I think the issue is asking permission.

    If you ASK the answer may well be "no", however if you simply inform the school there shouldn't be an issue. You are just telling them rather than asking them to make a decision.

    "my child will not be in school for the next week...."

    as opposed to "do you give consent for my child to be absent for the next week"

    I work in Education (although not as a teacher, I'm in an admin role albeit at a fairly high level) and thats always been how it was presented to me, that could be region specific advice but its worth a try.
  • TWSTWS Posts: 9,307
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    Bypassall wrote: »
    I love comments such as children don't legally have to attend school until whatever age or parents do not automatically have the right to term-time holidays, forgetting that parents do have the absolute right to just unrole the child from the school, guaranteeing a loss of 'per client' revenue to that particular establishment and as it is a legal duty UPON THE STATE to provide free education IF WANTED BY THE PARENTS, they cannot stop you signing up for another school (or even the same one) after the holiday ends.

    Admittedly lots of paperwork but legally: Simples!

    yeah cos that would be fair to your children dragging them to a different school and making new friends all the time
  • horwichallstarshorwichallstars Posts: 16,514
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    My daughter is in Y1, and we have had the odd days off here and there with no problem. Let's face it they don't do anything on the last day of term anyway! None of the other parents I know have ever had a problem, in fact you are told at the start of the year that you can have up to 10 days a year, but that it has to be authorised. The only time that they get touchy is when it's a child in a SATS year, and it's coming up to exam time.

    I think your school is being harsh, stopping authorised leave isn't going to cut down on unauthorised leave...
  • alsmamaalsmama Posts: 4,564
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    And assumes there would still be space back at the school
  • Miss NMiss N Posts: 2,639
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    At my kids primary school we are allowed 5 days out of the school year. I think it used to be 10. When my daughter was similar age to yours we took her out of school for a week and they said she had to do a holiday diary whilst she was away (you could suggest in your letter you will do this).

    At the secondary school my daughter attends they are very, very strict on attendance (because they had a poor reputation in the past). However, she is still allowed 5 days but anything over that is a fine. My friend has a son go to the same school and she took him out for a fortnight to go away and got fined £50. The next holiday she just said he was ill. I imagine a lot of parents now say their children are ill.

    A friend of a friend was refused permission to take her child out of school because they said she was doing it far too often and they were putting their foot down. She had already booked the holiday and as much as she argued with the Headteacher they still refused, so they still went on their holiday but had to leave the child with the grandparents and the rest of the family went on holiday!

    I can see the point of attendance and especially at secondary school but when they are at primary school and specifically in the infants, I don't see the harm.

    I think what you may find is the headteacher will be wary of giving in to you as it may set a precedent for other parents. You may be asked to keep it to yourself if they allow you permission.
  • DoctorQuiDoctorQui Posts: 6,428
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    bazaar1 wrote: »
    I thought that was term after 4th birthday?

    op- its annoying i agree - but its not the school but the council/authority that push this now (afik) - its becoming standard across the system now, as children are missing too much school.

    but i'm sure if you talk to them and explain that you booked it as you didn't know about the change in rules, they might allow it this once.

    Councils have no control over the management or policies of a school. These days, its only school admissions that LAs have some authority with, but that is only limited and not as much as a school has. Above a HT is the Chair of the Board of Governors, above the Chair is the Secretary of State. I was a LA service manager and part of my service was school admissions!
  • c4rvc4rv Posts: 29,538
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    Sadly is what daisyduck said. I don't believe a school can achieve an outstanding unless they achieve 95% attendance. And as you can see in the press there is a lot of pressure on schools regarding attendance.
  • daisyduck1976daisyduck1976 Posts: 1,166
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    in fact you are told at the start of the year that you can have up to 10 days a year, but that it has to be authorised. The only time that they get touchy is when it's a child in a SATS year, and it's coming up to exam time..

    As I mentioned above. Michael Gove has categorically stated that the old standard of 10 days off, no longer applies.

    Also- the idea of telling the school that you are taking the child out, rather than requesting permission is a nonsense. It will have the same result either way. Unauthorised absence. We are in a whole new ballgame now with term-time holiday. It's a big thing with Michael Gove so none of the old ideas that you are all used to, apply anymore. Of course, you can still go on holiday and ignore what schools are being forced to tell you, but I rather suspect that his next advice to schools will be to take pupils off roll and give their place away to the next one on the waiting list, if they go away on an unauthorised holiday. It's already an idea that is being bandied around. Bad news if you have a child in a popular school and more of a problem for parents considering we are in a national shortage of primary school places which is only getting worse with every year.

    You are likely to get no fuss from the school for two days off at the end of a term. It's rather different from going for two weeks, or in many cases, more than that.

    As I said, schools are under tremendous pressure from many sources to stop you all from having term-time holidays. It doesn't mean we don't appreciate your situation or that we think you are bad parents or anything like that. We just have to be seen to be doing everything within our power to try and get school absence rates down to 98% which is considered acceptable by the government. The national average is around 95%, although much, much worse in many schools and LAs, and the government says that the difference between the two figures is due to holiday.

    It's worth noting that 10 days off school takes your child down to 95% immediately and that's why schools are put under pressure to stop it.
  • horwichallstarshorwichallstars Posts: 16,514
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    I think Mr Gove has now changed his mind

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2130268/U-turn-taking-term-time-holdiay-Plans-ban-automatic-fines-dropped.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

    Also, if he has his way as schools become academies, he'll have even less say over what heads choose to do.

    Never in a million years will a shcool take a child off the role for having a few days off. Should any school try that you'll just see the "sickness" rates going up.

    Saying that our head is very canny... we have shorter holidays in the year, so we break up a week earlier for the summer break, so we get a cheaper break.
  • Cantona07Cantona07 Posts: 56,910
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    This a ridiculous situation.

    Take the child on holiday. Inform the school that it is happening.

    Job done.
  • Fibromite59Fibromite59 Posts: 22,518
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    I think it is awful how schools are allowed to dictate that a parent cannot take their child out of school for a family holiday.

    It is perfectly correct that a child does not by law, have to start school until the beginning of the term following their 5th birthday. So if your child is five in June, then legally she doesn't have to start school until September. My son has a September birthday and started school in the September he turned five. However, I knew my rights and wanted to take him out of school for just one day in late November for an important family event. I told the teacher that I would be taking him out that day and she said that I wasn't allowed to. I told her that as he didn't have to start school until after the Christmas holidays anyway, then there was nothing the school could do about it, and she then reluctanly admitted that I was right.

    So just have your holiday, the school will look silly if they try to take the matter to court.

    There is also the option of home-education where you don't have to be bossed about by schools and teachers and can teach your child yourself. You don't need any qualifications to do so. I eventually got so fed-up with the attitudes of various schools, that I took my son out of school at the age of 12 and home-educated him. We had wonderful, educational holidays all over the world during term time, for cheaper prices and when it wasn't crowded. He was so happy, had lots of friends and it did him no harm. He ended up going to college and then uni and he has a degree now.
  • GneissGneiss Posts: 14,555
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    Don't ask, tell them... end of!

    Until parents are treated fairly and the law is changed to make it illegal for companies to bump the prices during school holidays these rules are there to be broken. Indeed as a parent it is your duty :D
  • HarloweHarlowe Posts: 20,005
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    I don't see the fuss say she ill and don't worry about it if she doesn't have a bad attendance then a week off isn't going to do her any harm, schools are too PC now days.
  • Blondie XBlondie X Posts: 28,662
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    OP. Is there anyone in your work who would write a letter saying that you can't take time off in the main school holidays for whatever reason? Most schools will accept that as a valid reason
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