I watched the show from mid Tom Baker to the final McCoy episode.
Maybe I was naive but I thought at the time, that the ratio of good stories to bad was slowing declining as time went on but never to the point where there was more bad than good.
What was noticeable though was the lowering standards of the programme especially in the McCoy era (I still cringe at the Candyman - horrific and not in way it was meant to be)
But having said that, McCoy despite a few rocky moments in the the first couple of episodes (where his lisp etc enhanced the potential 'bad acting') he eventually 'became' the Doctor especially towards the end of his reign. I still believe had he had longer time in the role he would have become one of the best Doctors of the Classic era.
Yes, the programme had a few detractors, none more prominent as Micheal Grade but despite being placed against Coronation Street, it managed to hold its head better than originally expected.
Is the programme today in the same shape as it was in those later years?? No, definitely not. That's pretty clear to see.
However, for me personally, there is 'something' which just isn't there for me with PC.
I can't honestly put my finger on it, but if I had to give a reason or two, I would lean towards the possibility that Clara has been placed on a even keel with PC, more so with the fact that he is playing the Doctor as a more 'quieter' character.
And by that I mean, when compared to Matt Smith, Smith took center stage in his scenes. PC just doesn't seem to have had that impact yet (again, just my opinion). I'm hopeful that with Jenna leaving this season, we can get to see more of PC doing HIS Doctor and owning it in a manner that is definitively HIS.
I know a few will disagree and that's fair enough but I am not writing off the show nor PC. Just hoping that for me, things will improve from the next episode onwards and I for one will persevere in the hope it happens sooner rather than later.
Though I would agree with you on this particular point I would argue that there are some (not many though)later McCoy stories that are not only better than Moffat's stories but some of RTD's as well, and some Classic stories as well come to that.
Not saying it's how Doctor Who should be right now, off course, but you get my point...hopefully!
Oh story wise I agree. In fact even some of the lesser episodes have a lot of merit. I watched Mel's exit episode last night for the first time in ages and I had forgotten just how beautifully written and acted her final scene is. Sure the reason for her exit is a bit rubbish and as a character she was useless but the goodbye is handled better than most in Classic Who and it has a sweet poignancy to it that you can see echoes of in New Who. A lovely moment.
But that said. There just is no excuse for that abomination posted previously! Just on every level it shouldn't have left the rehearsal room. In fact the worst thing about it is not just that it's bad but that it indicates no one really cared enough to do any better by that point.
Oh story wise I agree. In fact even some of the lesser episodes have a lot of merit. I watched Mel's exit episode last night for the first time in ages and I had forgotten just how beautifully written and acted her final scene is. Sure the reason for her exit is a bit rubbish and as a character she was useless but the goodbye is handled better than most in Classic Who and it has a sweet poignancy to it that you can see echoes of in New Who. A lovely moment.
But that said. There just is no excuse for that abomination posted previously! Just on every level it shouldn't have left the rehearsal room. In fact the worst thing about it is not just that it's bad but that it indicates no one really cared enough to do any better by that point.
If you watch the DVD Documentary for Time and The Rani, it can be been that it wasn't really 100% liked by anyone involved. Andrew Cartmel and Pip and Jane Baker the writers never saw eye to eye on it, Cartmel hadn't really started on the show properly when it was written so some of it fell to JNT and on top of that you had the fall out from Colin Baker's sacking as well so really the whole thing seems just done off the cuff and as a result the whole thing looks a mess. The new style of the show at the time didn't really help either.
The BBC didn't help either by forcing JNT to stay on as producer. That so should have been the time that a new producer in tandem with a new Doctor could have moved the show on to pastures new and put all the controversy from the Sixth Doctor's time behind them.
Not making excuses for the story, just saying that maybe with different external factors it would have been better or not made at all.
Agree about Mel's exit, was a nice scene. Shame about the rest of that Season.
An interesting thread. I haven't posted about DW in years for a number of reasons but watching The Magicians Apprentice has spurred me into action.
Firstly, there is no " you either like DW or you don't. If you don't, find another show". This is a daft and immature view. Critical viewing of a much loved show is perfectly acceptable. Witness, for example, Buffy, which had fantastic episodes, great episodes, poor episodes etc. Entire seasons slated, entire seasons held up as the very best TV had to offer.
Personally I've been dismayed at Moffat's direction, not because I think he's a poor writer but because I think he tries to do too much and ends up succeeding at very little.
The Magicians Apprentice is, for me, probably the finest example of this problem. The central theme around Davros was largely well executed, beautifully dark and close to the kind of DW I've always wished for. The reveal at the end was great. But...
The "deaths" will be reversed by the usual predictable deux ex machina trope. Tired and lazy.
Missy is an idea in search of a reason. I love Michelle Gomez but her presence in this show is largely redundant. Moffat tends to write one dimensional female characters and then do even less with them.
The frozen planes could've been interesting but was all too readily thrown aside without development and was ultimately pointless. Surely Missy could've just turned up at Clara's door. It's this kind of grandstanding that irks many who love the show.
The references back to previous doctors was ok, but there's a point at which being a slave to the past becomes cloying nostalgia.
However, more than any of these things, my main and overarching complaint is that this is not Docotr Who ....
The story focuses around the Doctor's life and actions far too much. Classic Who treated the Doctor as a cipher, he turned up, fixed things for a set of characters in peril and then disappeared. Moffat has fallen into the trap set by Cartmel in seeing the Doctor as the story, rather than the story as the vehicle for the Doctor. If, ultimately, the Doctor is reposnsible for everything that's happened of any signifance in the universe then there is no real story.
I'd like to see a return to self contained adventures, retain the mystery of the central character and remove the domestic/soap earth moments around the companions.
Last week's episode was full of promise, but the reason many don't like it is not that they are "not fans" it's that they don't like it! Much like your favourite sports team you don't switch allegiance because they have a bad game. Some so called "fans" should take a long hard look at what they type before they post. Opinion and critique are part of dialogue, communication and information exchange. The closing down of opinions you don't like is an action of oppression. Rather, tell us why you liked the bits we disliked.
Every season I say I won't watch again, but every season I go back. I'm a fan. Maybe not a fan like some of you but if we were all the same the world would be dull..
It's just a TV show at the end of the day, hardly something to abuse people over (whichever side of the fence you sit)
I agree with this post. I don't post much in the Dr Who forums for fear I will be told to "watch something else" when I am negative about aspects of an episode or New Who.
Its no similar to Classic Who. Some Classic Who was rubbish or some stories had rubbish moments. New WHo is no different.
There are plenty of positives about the episodes but also things that ruin the episodes. Taking the latest episode as an example :
positives:
Capaldi -The makings of a great Dr Who
Dark Feel - I love the dark feel of episodes. It makes things more serious and therefore more dangerous
Daleks - Its good they are using a mixture of Daleks. I mean not everyone has the latest Peugeot car so people are still driving Peugeot 205's so unless there is a Dalek factory to replace your old shell with a new one it makes sense to have different style of Daleks on Skaro
Negatives:
Clara - I didn't mind her at first but all the nonsence about being the impossible girl just tried to make her too important to the Doctor's history. Also the school scenes are boring and keep the Doctor too grounded to Earth and not exploring the galaxy. The worst episode recently for me was the Children in the Forest episode. Just so boring!
Missy - Doesn't work for me. Fine make her a Time Lady and there is nothing wrong with the persona or style of Missy its just she isn't the Master. I can accept the Master taking over a womens body - he would steal any body he can but I cannot see her as the Master. She may as well be a new character and be done with it.
Stupid Comedy moments - all that stuff when they found the Doctor at the start of episode 1. Totally unnecessary and the super sonic sunglasses? Give me a break.
Resets - We all knew Clara and Missy were not killed. I would have loved for Moffat to have the balls to have killed them. To many resets in New Who - remember Rory?!
So I think its OK to analyse and criticise an episode. It shows that you care about the show too much. People have been watching Who for decades they are not going to give up that easily!
I still cringe at the Candyman - horrific and not in way it was meant to be.
Add a truck load of money and you get the Slitheen. Add a truck load more money, add Peter Kay and you get the Absorboloff etc For all the criticism the McCoy era gets, the difference between it and some parts of New Who aren't as wide as many believe and often just come down to budget. The McCoy era had pennies, New Who has pounds.
Comments
I watched the show from mid Tom Baker to the final McCoy episode.
Maybe I was naive but I thought at the time, that the ratio of good stories to bad was slowing declining as time went on but never to the point where there was more bad than good.
What was noticeable though was the lowering standards of the programme especially in the McCoy era (I still cringe at the Candyman - horrific and not in way it was meant to be)
But having said that, McCoy despite a few rocky moments in the the first couple of episodes (where his lisp etc enhanced the potential 'bad acting') he eventually 'became' the Doctor especially towards the end of his reign. I still believe had he had longer time in the role he would have become one of the best Doctors of the Classic era.
Yes, the programme had a few detractors, none more prominent as Micheal Grade but despite being placed against Coronation Street, it managed to hold its head better than originally expected.
Is the programme today in the same shape as it was in those later years?? No, definitely not. That's pretty clear to see.
However, for me personally, there is 'something' which just isn't there for me with PC.
I can't honestly put my finger on it, but if I had to give a reason or two, I would lean towards the possibility that Clara has been placed on a even keel with PC, more so with the fact that he is playing the Doctor as a more 'quieter' character.
And by that I mean, when compared to Matt Smith, Smith took center stage in his scenes. PC just doesn't seem to have had that impact yet (again, just my opinion). I'm hopeful that with Jenna leaving this season, we can get to see more of PC doing HIS Doctor and owning it in a manner that is definitively HIS.
I know a few will disagree and that's fair enough but I am not writing off the show nor PC. Just hoping that for me, things will improve from the next episode onwards and I for one will persevere in the hope it happens sooner rather than later.
Oh story wise I agree. In fact even some of the lesser episodes have a lot of merit. I watched Mel's exit episode last night for the first time in ages and I had forgotten just how beautifully written and acted her final scene is. Sure the reason for her exit is a bit rubbish and as a character she was useless but the goodbye is handled better than most in Classic Who and it has a sweet poignancy to it that you can see echoes of in New Who. A lovely moment.
https://youtu.be/oYeAwGXs9jI
But that said. There just is no excuse for that abomination posted previously! Just on every level it shouldn't have left the rehearsal room. In fact the worst thing about it is not just that it's bad but that it indicates no one really cared enough to do any better by that point.
If you watch the DVD Documentary for Time and The Rani, it can be been that it wasn't really 100% liked by anyone involved. Andrew Cartmel and Pip and Jane Baker the writers never saw eye to eye on it, Cartmel hadn't really started on the show properly when it was written so some of it fell to JNT and on top of that you had the fall out from Colin Baker's sacking as well so really the whole thing seems just done off the cuff and as a result the whole thing looks a mess. The new style of the show at the time didn't really help either.
The BBC didn't help either by forcing JNT to stay on as producer. That so should have been the time that a new producer in tandem with a new Doctor could have moved the show on to pastures new and put all the controversy from the Sixth Doctor's time behind them.
Not making excuses for the story, just saying that maybe with different external factors it would have been better or not made at all.
Agree about Mel's exit, was a nice scene. Shame about the rest of that Season.
I agree with this post. I don't post much in the Dr Who forums for fear I will be told to "watch something else" when I am negative about aspects of an episode or New Who.
Its no similar to Classic Who. Some Classic Who was rubbish or some stories had rubbish moments. New WHo is no different.
There are plenty of positives about the episodes but also things that ruin the episodes. Taking the latest episode as an example :
positives:
Capaldi -The makings of a great Dr Who
Dark Feel - I love the dark feel of episodes. It makes things more serious and therefore more dangerous
Daleks - Its good they are using a mixture of Daleks. I mean not everyone has the latest Peugeot car so people are still driving Peugeot 205's so unless there is a Dalek factory to replace your old shell with a new one it makes sense to have different style of Daleks on Skaro
Negatives:
Clara - I didn't mind her at first but all the nonsence about being the impossible girl just tried to make her too important to the Doctor's history. Also the school scenes are boring and keep the Doctor too grounded to Earth and not exploring the galaxy. The worst episode recently for me was the Children in the Forest episode. Just so boring!
Missy - Doesn't work for me. Fine make her a Time Lady and there is nothing wrong with the persona or style of Missy its just she isn't the Master. I can accept the Master taking over a womens body - he would steal any body he can but I cannot see her as the Master. She may as well be a new character and be done with it.
Stupid Comedy moments - all that stuff when they found the Doctor at the start of episode 1. Totally unnecessary and the super sonic sunglasses? Give me a break.
Resets - We all knew Clara and Missy were not killed. I would have loved for Moffat to have the balls to have killed them. To many resets in New Who - remember Rory?!
So I think its OK to analyse and criticise an episode. It shows that you care about the show too much. People have been watching Who for decades they are not going to give up that easily!
Add a truck load of money and you get the Slitheen. Add a truck load more money, add Peter Kay and you get the Absorboloff etc