Multicullturism for UK - Was it right?

Terryallgold · 08/10/14 - 08:36

Multiculturalism has brought us honour killings and Sharia law, says Archbishop

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11053646/Multiculturalism-has-brought-us-honour-killings-and-Sharia-law-says-Archbishop.html

Eater Sundae · 08/10/14 - 08:50

If the quotes attributed to him are complete and in context, then I am surprised that he has spoken in such terms. Also, he seems to have little understanding of how the law works.

There's no way that (solely) British citizens will be denied access back into Britain. Also, Sharia Law in the UK is nothing more than a private contract between like minded people, not "law" as such.

jjwales · 08/10/14 - 08:59

I'm not sure how he thinks we could have stopped immigrants "establishing completely separate communities in our cities", given that we pride ourselves on having a free society.

Eric_Blob · 08/10/14 - 09:06

Yes, I think it was right. White people are a minority in my age group where I live (has been like that since the early 00's), and I love living here. Doesn't bother me at all, I'm very happy with my life.

I also lived in a highly muslim area for a while, and that was fine too. They didn't try and impose any of their laws on me or anything like that. The most I had was a leaflet dropped through my door every now and then, but I can deal with that, you get religious leaflets wherever you live anyway.

What I would say is that it upsets me to see a load of asian people living together in a town then another town full of only white people. I wish people would mix more. People usually blame the foreigners for this, but I think us white people are also partly to blame too. I've talked to some of my friends about this and most of them say they would never want to move into one of the highly-muslim areas (although having done so personally, it's honestly not as bad as most people would think). Perhaps the Government should offer some kind of incentive (maybe a discount to housing or something) for people who have been in the UK for many generations who move into areas where they're a minority. That might help spread the demographics out a bit.

I can understand why some older people have a problem with this though. My dad said when he was growing up he never saw a black person, yet now I see hundreds every day in the city centre. I can imagine for older people it must be a big change in a relatively short time, so it might scare them a bit. For me it's normal since I grew up with it.

TheTruth1983 · 08/10/14 - 09:13

Terryallgold wrote: »

Multiculturalism has brought us honour killings and Sharia law, says Archbishop

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11053646/Multiculturalism-has-brought-us-honour-killings-and-Sharia-law-says-Archbishop.html

I'm not even gonna click the link if that is the type of shite I will read in it. Perhaps the Archbishop should focus on all the nonsense in his own religion rather than spouting shite about things he does not understand.

cessna · 08/10/14 - 09:14

Makes little difference what the Minister said or whether considered right or wrong - The subject is tied in with enforced mass immigration as imposed upon the British people by our teinted Westminster 650 club who were and are prepared to flood the UK with foreigners for reasons they see as of value for political party reasons and not necessarily for the benefit of the British people.

scottie2121 · 08/10/14 - 09:19

cessna wrote: »

Makes little difference what the Minister said or whether considered right or wrong - The subject is tied in with enforced mass immigration as imposed upon the British people by our teinted Westminster 650 club who were and are prepared to flood the UK with foreigners for reasons they see as of value for political party reasons and not necessarily for the benefit of the British people.

So people were forced to emigrate to the UK?

Inkblot · 08/10/14 - 09:19

cessna wrote: »

Makes little difference what the Minister said or whether considered right or wrong - The subject is tied in with enforced mass immigration as imposed upon the British people by our teinted Westminster 650 club who were and are prepared to flood the UK with foreigners for reasons they see as of value for political party reasons and not necessarily for the benefit of the British people.

Time to end the disastrous democratic experiment!

TheTruth1983 · 08/10/14 - 09:20

Eric_Blob wrote: »

Yes, I think it was right. White people are a minority in my age group where I live (has been like that since the early 00's), and I love living here. Doesn't bother me at all, I'm very happy with my life.

I also lived in a highly muslim area for a while, and that was fine too. They didn't try and impose any of their laws on me or anything like that. The most I had was a leaflet dropped through my door every now and then, but I can deal with that, you get religious leaflets wherever you live anyway.

What I would say is that it upsets me to see a load of asian people living together in a town then another town full of only white people. I wish people would mix more. People usually blame the foreigners for this, but I think us white people are also partly to blame too. I've talked to some of my friends about this and most of them say they would never want to move into one of the highly-muslim areas (although having done so personally, it's honestly not as bad as most people would think). Perhaps the Government should offer some kind of incentive (maybe a discount to housing or something) for people who have been in the UK for many generations who move into areas where they're a minority. That might help spread the demographics out a bit.

I can understand why some older people have a problem with this though. My dad said when he was growing up he never saw a black person, yet now I see hundreds every day in the city centre. I can imagine for older people it must be a big change in a relatively short time, so it might scare them a bit. For me it's normal since I grew up with it.

Great post but I want to single out the BIB, if I may.

I couldn't agree more. Far too many people think integration is a one way street and that immigrants should make all the effort to integrate. This is bunk. Why would an immigrant try to integrate if they were not made to feel welcome? Why would they try to integrate if they are targeted by uneducated, knuckle dragging thugs painting "go home" type slogans on their gable walls?

A lot of people need to grow up and stop blaming immigrants for their own failings in life.

I would just like to finish by sharing 9 reasons to want immigration as put forward by the Adam Smith Institute

http://www.buzzfeed.com/asi/9-reasons-to-want-a-lot-more-immigration-110du

Eric_Blob · 08/10/14 - 09:20

cessna wrote: »

Makes little difference what the Minister said or whether considered right or wrong

Not to mention, most of the people that have been in the UK for many generations now hate religion anyway, so they're not going to care what the Archbishop says.

[Deleted User] · 08/10/14 - 09:33

Eater Sundae wrote: »

If the quotes attributed to him are complete and in context, then I am surprised that he has spoken in such terms. Also, he seems to have little understanding of how the law works.

Carey is not 'an archbishop'. He is a long retired archbishop who was Margaret Thatcher's personal choice at the time for his reliably right-ring views. He has consistently campaigned against any extension in gay rights, publicly backed Israel's 'right' to build in the border settlements and was accused of constantly undermining the more liberal Rowan Williams when he was archbish. He has become something of a favourite in the Mail/ Espress, who are delighted to wheel the old dinosaur out whenever they want someone in a dog collar to make a deeply retrogressive statement.

In Carey's defence, he really did piss margaret Thatcher and her supporters off from time to time by expressing concern about the poor. A bishop being concerned for the poor! How awful and shocking.

There's no way that (solely) British citizens will be denied access back into Britain. Also, Sharia Law in the UK is nothing more than a private contract between like minded people, not "law" as such.

Almost certainly yes, and yes. It is possible that some of the Isis volunteers have dual citizenship and it may be possible to deny them entry.

Eric_Blob wrote: »

I can understand why some older people have a problem with this though. My dad said when he was growing up he never saw a black person, yet now I see hundreds every day in the city centre. I can imagine for older people it must be a big change in a relatively short time, so it might scare them a bit. For me it's normal since I grew up with it.

What a lovely post. So different from all those people who pretend that there are 'no go areas' where it is impossible to leave your house without being attacked by a pack of feral sharias.

cessna wrote: »

enforced mass immigration as imposed upon the British people by our teinted Westminster 650 club who were and are prepared to flood the UK with foreigners for reasons they see as of value for political party reasons and not necessarily for the benefit of the British people.

Why would it imaginably be of party political advantage? It is invariably polled as a big vote loser. The truth is that the government would love nothing more than to slash immigration to about 2 people a year, both of them Australian, but for all their promises they keep bumping up against the awful fact that they have to keep the law. Trying to reduce numbers on paper by attacking overseas students was particularly moronic, because they were attacking the one group that indisputably brings money to the UK; indeed, they nearly forced our biggest university into bankruptcy before realizing that this was not a great idea.

Inkblot wrote: »

Time to end the disastrous democratic experiment!

Ha ha.

[Deleted User] · 08/10/14 - 10:47

Black migration has worked well and members of the Black community have gelled into the country quite smoothly and successfully. By and large, they have integrated themselves into the fabric of British society and have contributed to Britain in a whole host of arenas, not least music, football, boxing, television, film, politics, cuisine, and Olympic success.

They have also sacrificed life and limb in the military for this country, despite perhaps owing the least of any migrant group to the British government due to past and present grievances ranging from enslavement of ancestors and the colonisation of Africa to police harassment and illegal stop-and-searches.

The least successful story in multicultural Britain has been Pakistani migration, which has been a net negative. By and large, this is a group that has, so far and for the most part, chosen not to assimilate. The contribution to Britain has been minimal, from what I can see.

While Black Britons have succeeded in taking up the national sport of football (as well as many others), the biggest sport amongst British Pakistanis has been cricket. Why? Because cricket is big in Pakistan. This is reflective of a wider problem amongst many Pakistani migrants and their descendants; the constant yearning and hankering for the ways and values of their country of origin, rather than the ways and values of the country in which they are citizens.

Of course, the most harmful impact of Pakistani migration to Britain has been the rise of Islam; a very nefarious belief system. British Islamists of Pakistani-descent have been complicit in the brainwashing and manipulation of young, disenfranchised Black men and have used them as pawns in their war against British society. Germaine Lindsay, Michael Adebolajo, Michael Adobawale; behind every Black British Islamist there has been a Islamic extremist of Pakistani-descent working them up and egging them on.

I believe that young Black men have been targeted for brainwashing due to jealousy amongst some British Pakistani's regarding Black people's contribution to British society and the ease with which they have assimilated. They are of the believe that British Pakistanis are being victimised and shunned, when in actual fact their lack of success in comparison with Black Britons has been as a result of self-imposed ostracization.

TheTruth1983 · 08/10/14 - 11:03

I dunno, we seem to have quite a list of British Pakistanis who have contributed greatly to the success of the country in a wide range of disciplines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_Pakistanis

Pumping Iron · 08/10/14 - 11:09

Terryallgold wrote: »

Multiculturalism has brought us honour killings and Sharia law, says Archbishop

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11053646/Multiculturalism-has-brought-us-honour-killings-and-Sharia-law-says-Archbishop.html

Islamic extremism has brought that, not multiculturalism.

cessna · 08/10/14 - 11:26

Why would it imaginably be of party political advantage? It is invariably polled as a big vote loser. The truth is that the government would love nothing more than to slash immigration to about 2 people a year, both of them Australian, but for all their promises they keep bumping up against the awful fact that they have to keep the law. Trying to reduce numbers on paper by attacking overseas students was particularly moronic, because they were attacking the one group that indisputably brings money to the UK; indeed, they nearly forced our biggest university into bankruptcy before realizing that this was not a great idea.

>>>

Suggest check Labours record on deceit and lies over mass immigration.

dee123 · 08/10/14 - 11:28

That ISN'T a Daily Mail link?

TheTruth1983 · 08/10/14 - 11:38

Just saw this today and thought it quite appropriate

http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/economics/why-do-people-oppose-immigration

jjwales · 08/10/14 - 11:42

Pumping Iron wrote: »

Islamic extremism has brought that, not multiculturalism.

I'm not sure that Sharia law, in the civil sense, counts as extremism. It's a long way from "honour" killings.

cessna · 08/10/14 - 11:48

dee123 wrote: »

That ISN'T a Daily Mail link?

Quite correct - It isnt. Hansard being more likely !

bspace · 08/10/14 - 12:14

ZuluKing3000 wrote: »

Black migration has worked well and members of the Black community have gelled into the country quite smoothly and successfully. By and large, they have integrated themselves into the fabric of British society and have contributed to Britain in a whole host of arenas, not least music, football, boxing, television, film, politics, cuisine, and Olympic success.

They have also sacrificed life and limb in the military for this country, despite perhaps owing the least of any migrant group to the British government due to past and present grievances ranging from enslavement of ancestors and the colonisation of Africa to police harassment and illegal stop-and-searches.

The least successful story in multicultural Britain has been Pakistani migration, which has been a net negative. By and large, this is a group that has, so far and for the most part, chosen not to assimilate. The contribution to Britain has been minimal, from what I can see.

While Black Britons have succeeded in taking up the national sport of football (as well as many others), the biggest sport amongst British Pakistanis has been cricket. Why? Because cricket is big in Pakistan. This is reflective of a wider problem amongst many Pakistani migrants and their descendants; the constant yearning and hankering for the ways and values of their country of origin, rather than the ways and values of the country in which they are citizens.

Of course, the most harmful impact of Pakistani migration to Britain has been the rise of Islam; a very nefarious belief system. British Islamists of Pakistani-descent have been complicit in the brainwashing and manipulation of young, disenfranchised Black men and have used them as pawns in their war against British society. Germaine Lindsay, Michael Adebolajo, Michael Adobawale; behind every Black British Islamist there has been a Islamic extremist of Pakistani-descent working them up and egging them on.

I believe that young Black men have been targeted for brainwashing due to jealousy amongst some British Pakistani's regarding Black people's contribution to British society and the ease with which they have assimilated. They are of the believe that British Pakistanis are being victimised and shunned, when in actual fact their lack of success in comparison with Black Britons has been as a result of self-imposed ostracization.

much to agree with here. I'd also say that most sikhs and hindus have also intergrated well with european society and made valuable contributions to our culture. Not to mention those who have regected islam and fled oppresive islamic regimes.

BIB especially

Eater Sundae · 08/10/14 - 12:22

ZuluKing3000 wrote: »

Black migration has worked well and members of the Black community have gelled into the country quite smoothly and successfully. By and large, they have integrated themselves into the fabric of British society and have contributed to Britain in a whole host of arenas, not least music, football, boxing, television, film, politics, cuisine, and Olympic success.

They have also sacrificed life and limb in the military for this country, despite perhaps owing the least of any migrant group to the British government due to past and present grievances ranging from enslavement of ancestors and the colonisation of Africa to police harassment and illegal stop-and-searches.

The least successful story in multicultural Britain has been Pakistani migration, which has been a net negative. By and large, this is a group that has, so far and for the most part, chosen not to assimilate. The contribution to Britain has been minimal, from what I can see.

While Black Britons have succeeded in taking up the national sport of football (as well as many others), the biggest sport amongst British Pakistanis has been cricket. Why? Because cricket is big in Pakistan. This is reflective of a wider problem amongst many Pakistani migrants and their descendants; the constant yearning and hankering for the ways and values of their country of origin, rather than the ways and values of the country in which they are citizens.

Of course, the most harmful impact of Pakistani migration to Britain has been the rise of Islam; a very nefarious belief system. British Islamists of Pakistani-descent have been complicit in the brainwashing and manipulation of young, disenfranchised Black men and have used them as pawns in their war against British society. Germaine Lindsay, Michael Adebolajo, Michael Adobawale; behind every Black British Islamist there has been a Islamic extremist of Pakistani-descent working them up and egging them on.

I believe that young Black men have been targeted for brainwashing due to jealousy amongst some British Pakistani's regarding Black people's contribution to British society and the ease with which they have assimilated. They are of the believe that British Pakistanis are being victimised and shunned, when in actual fact their lack of success in comparison with Black Britons has been as a result of self-imposed ostracization.

Although I agree with some of this, there are quite a few oversimplifications IMO.

Yes, black (mostly west indian) immigrants have, to a great extent, blended in, but it has been a long time coming, and is still by no means complete. Large scale immigration from the west indies started in the 50s. Large scale immigration from the Indian sub-continent started later (70s? - I don't know the rate of change of any immigration rates to know when it was at its highest and/or significantly ramped up). I think it is too close to both to conclude whether one is making a better job than another. Above, I've said that integration "has been a long time coming", but in reality it hasn't. In the whole scheme of things we are only talking 50 or 60 years. We are typically in 3rd or 4th generation of immigrant families. Maybe if we look back on this in 100 to 150 years time we'll be better able to judge. If we look back in history, we'll probably be able to find people complaining about "them Huguenots, coming here, taking our jobs, and all living together and not mixing".

Clearly, the influx of west Indians changed the status quo and should have made it easier for the next influx of "different" people to arrive.

The key difference between West Indian and Pakistani (and Indian) immigrants are the religious differences. (Having said that, I believe that in many cases West Indians were not made welcome when they first tried to attend churches when they first arrived in the UK, despite being Christian. ie they wanted to mix, but were not allowed to, in some cases).

I don't see the relevance of cricket. As the colonial power, Britain introduced cricket, which was then taken up by locals, be it in the Carribbean, India/Pakistan/Sri Lanka, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Zimbabwe etc. It has retained its popularity in these countries, so its no surprise that immigrants to the UK play it. Soccer doesn't appear to have caught on in India/Pakistan in the same way, but Hockey certainly has. I don't see the lack of soccer playing people of Pakistani descent as being symptomatic of anything untoward. Carribbean communities in the UK play a lot of cricket, but don't play hockey.

Re integration into society, and playing a positive role in society - I don't know any figures, but I believe that the percentage of doctors and other clinical specialists of Pakistani descent will be greater than the percentage within the population as a whole. Again anecdotal, but there is a concept of a lot of Pakistani people starting small businesses. Less so for immigrants from the carribbean. Were small businesses started by incoming Pakistanis because they are particularly entrepreneurial, or was it because they were being denied employment in the general jobs market? (Just to clarify, when considering Black people, I am particularly thinking in terms of those from the Carribbean - simply because I know more of them and have contact with them. I have very little contact with those from Africa, so even less personal anecdotal evidence).

Re Islam. Like pretty much any religion, Islam looks to convert non-believers. It has been able to attract some young black males. I don't know whether, in the whole scheme of things, it is an unusually large number of converts, but it certainly includes a lot of notorious examples. Islam was clearly able to offer them something that other religions (I think the examples were mostly from Christian backgrounds) were unable to offer. If as you say, and I believe you are right, they felt disenfranchised, then it puts into question how well they had assimilated into society, and how well society had allowed them to assimilate.

In summary, I think it is too early to tell if those of Pakistani descent will assimilate as well as black people have done / are doing, but my guess is that in 100 years or so, our descendants will wonder what all the fuss was about.

I think there is an issue regarding Islam, but it is very specific. The VAST majority of people, regardless of whether they are Christian, Islamic, Hindu, Jew or any other (or none) just want to get on with their lives, and couldn't care less what anyone else thinks as long as it doesn't impact on them. There are then groups of people who have views outside this and have an interest in ramping up any differences and wishing to cause conflict and to defeat "the others". These are small in number, but the greater the conflict, either here or in other countries, then the more they can play on this to stir up even more hate and conflict, and make the problem worse, by attracting more to their cause.

80sfan · 08/10/14 - 13:33

deleted

rupert_pupkin · 08/10/14 - 13:36

Multiculturalism is great, just ask anybody who grew up with it

It's mostly people who didn't grow up with it and usually still don't experience it that are always complaining, which is odd

Lardness · 08/10/14 - 13:39

ZuluKing3000 wrote: »

Black migration has worked well and members of the Black community have gelled into the country quite smoothly and successfully. By and large, they have integrated themselves into the fabric of British society and have contributed to Britain in a whole host of arenas, not least music, football, boxing, television, film, politics, cuisine, and Olympic success.

They have also sacrificed life and limb in the military for this country, despite perhaps owing the least of any migrant group to the British government due to past and present grievances ranging from enslavement of ancestors and the colonisation of Africa to police harassment and illegal stop-and-searches.

The least successful story in multicultural Britain has been Pakistani migration, which has been a net negative. By and large, this is a group that has, so far and for the most part, chosen not to assimilate. The contribution to Britain has been minimal, from what I can see.

While Black Britons have succeeded in taking up the national sport of football (as well as many others), the biggest sport amongst British Pakistanis has been cricket. Why? Because cricket is big in Pakistan. This is reflective of a wider problem amongst many Pakistani migrants and their descendants; the constant yearning and hankering for the ways and values of their country of origin, rather than the ways and values of the country in which they are citizens.

Of course, the most harmful impact of Pakistani migration to Britain has been the rise of Islam; a very nefarious belief system. British Islamists of Pakistani-descent have been complicit in the brainwashing and manipulation of young, disenfranchised Black men and have used them as pawns in their war against British society. Germaine Lindsay, Michael Adebolajo, Michael Adobawale; behind every Black British Islamist there has been a Islamic extremist of Pakistani-descent working them up and egging them on.

I believe that young Black men have been targeted for brainwashing due to jealousy amongst some British Pakistani's regarding Black people's contribution to British society and the ease with which they have assimilated. They are of the believe that British Pakistanis are being victimised and shunned, when in actual fact their lack of success in comparison with Black Britons has been as a result of self-imposed ostracization.

Good summary

crystallad · 08/10/14 - 13:39

Terryallgold wrote: »

Multiculturalism has brought us honour killings and Sharia law, says Archbishop

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11053646/Multiculturalism-has-brought-us-honour-killings-and-Sharia-law-says-Archbishop.html

"WAS IT RIGHT"
no was asked or got a vote!

TheTruth1983 · 08/10/14 - 13:40

80sfan wrote: »

Unlimited uncontrolled immigration has been great for businesses who can constantly find a steady stream of cheaper workers who will expect less pay than the last lot.

Unlimited uncontrolled immigration has been a disaster for the lower and working classes of the UK and the young above all, who cannot afford to survive in some parts of the country on a minimum wage kept artificially low.

The last Labour Party's failed policy betrayed the very people they claim(ed) to represent. The current Tory lot don't care as it doesn't affect their core middle and upper class votes.

This 'free for all' needs to end. Only those people with skills we need should be allowed in.

The Low Pay Commission sets the minimum wage and immigration is not a factor.

There have been studies showing that, while there has been a small negative impact on wages in the unskilled sector, it is statistically insignificant. Factors like like general labour market developments, tax policy and the minimum wage itself have been far more influential.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/29/migrants-wages-uk-immigration_n_5409319.html

Hey there!

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Multicullturism for UK - Was it right?

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