I didn't know about the gagging law (thanks OHG). We are following in the U.S.'s footsteps in curbing free speech and silencing protest.
All of the main parties support this law. Labour were dragging us into a police state when they left power. So much so I was glad to see them go.
Yeah they tend to keep such things quiet, preferring to keep us plebs occupied with fighting each other over the thought that someone somewhere might be getting a few quid for nothing.
As for Labour their proposed ID cards and their internet surveillance plans had me as angry as anyone else, unlike the way many Tory supporters here are (with the Tories) I have never tried to pretend that Labour are perfect or that they walk on water and can do no wrong, they often made me bloody angry and I have absolutely no doubt that when/if they form the next government I will have plenty of cause to rant against them (mark those words ) I had been calling them "Tory Lite" since about November 1997
BUT having said that they have quite a way to go yet before they sink as low as the Tories, (in MY opinion of course)
When governments lose their ability to provide for the people, they turn on the people.
Problem is we are nowhere near that point, this is something like the 7th wealthiest nation on Earth, we could easily 'provide for the people' if the will to do so was there,
the poor are constantly referred to as "lazy and greedy" by some of the laziest and greediest people on the planet and they are a tiny minority of the people on the planet too, and yet we the plebs allow them to hold all the power and all the wealth,
We are supposed to be in the midst of the most serious global financial crisis in living memory a situation that is almost if not as bad as being in a full scale war in regards to the effects on the economy, "we are all in this together" we are told, as the rich get given a huge income boost, we have to tighten our belts and sacrifices have to be made" we are told as MPs award themselves a massive pay rise, we have no money we are told as we spend millions of pounds a day bombing Libya, and now Iraq. I am certainly not opposed to us giving money for international aid, but do countries with nuclear weapons and a space programme really need cash from us?
do we really "NEED" to up grade trident nuclear missiles are they no good now because they can only kill a piddling 8 million people each, and we NEED to have those bigger ones that can kill 12 million people? seems we do and we can afford them too, meanwhile people like myself are being punished for the crime of having a "spare" bedroom, by people who I am certain spend more on one meal than I and my partner have to live on for a month. I don't begrudge them their expensive meal but I am certainly "a tad" annoyed at them telling me that it's my fault that my partners children got jobs and left home, and it's her fault that she became too ill to work full time.
IF things are as bad as we are told they are then why don't we have a national coalition government like we did during the war? why aren't the rich being asked to 'help out'?
"all in it together" and all that, why not an emergency tax rate in the national interest a sort of 'Blitz spirit'? surely any decent government should be calling for a national unified front in such a 'dire' situation? (I mean if things are so bad and we are so broke that we have to punish people for spare room crime, and others have to use food banks to survive)
Fact is, that no party will do anything that might upset the rich, they prefer to pretend that we are all "in it together" but only expect the poor to suffer. while deliberately setting the 'plebs' against each other as a distraction. if we were united instead of bickering, then we just might get a government "of the people and for the people"
as opposed to "of the wealthy and for the wealthy"
If the country can't afford welfare and the NHS, which would you keep?
I personally would keep welfare. As more people rely on it on a day to day basis.
There is a very long way to go before we reach such a situation, it's all about priorities, and perhaps the wealthy putting their hands in their pockets and feeling just a tiny bit of the pain that the ordinary man and woman is feeling, just for a short time,
Personally I would expect violence on the streets like never before seen in the UK.
They have a desire to return to a Britain of the 19th century. No welfare, no NHS, no sick pay, no holiday pay, long hours for low pay. Almost Dickensian.
This government have gerrymandered a "recovery" using cheap/free labour and huge public spending, simply to gain a second term where it all kicks off really.
They are doing it too slowly for the 'frogs' to feel the heat for a revolution to happen.
Take the NHS for example, they are trying to privatise it by stealth.
They've already made dentistry private for people who earn over a certain amount.
Zero hours contracts are another attempt to erode workers rights.
But they DIDN'T win the election though did they, and yet just look at the state of this country right now,
and I am not talking about the economy, this mythical Tory miracle either which is the only thing that Tories ever seem to care about.
the unemployed forced to do work that was previously a punishment for criminals,
being "penalised" or "fined" for the crime of being poor and having a room that the Tories decided you don't 'need' any more.
and all of that without winning an election, God help us all if they do actually win one.
Thanks for the informative post OLD HIPPY GUY. I must admit I'm coming around to your way of thinking. Maybe Labour aren't so bad after all. Certainly on surveilance and free speech they're NO different but I do like to think they'd protect workers rights and the disabled more than the Tories. Has Miliband said much? If not, we truly are doomed. Maybe we need a new party.
Thanks for the informative post OLD HIPPY GUY. I must admit I'm coming around to your way of thinking. Maybe Labour aren't so bad after all. Certainly on surveilance and free speech they're NO different but I do like to think they'd protect workers rights and the disabled more than the Tories. Has Miliband said much? If not, we truly are doomed. Maybe we need a new party.
If people don't like the Tories, there are other alternatives than just Labour.
If people don't like the Tories, there are other alternatives than just Labour.
The only viable alternative who seem to be able to make a dent is UKIP but I don't know whet to make of them. Farage is talking about taking income tax off the minimum wage but just over a year ago he was saying on Fox News he was against it and implied it was massive. Unsure if they've genuinely moved more to the left or not. It's hard to know until they get some power (even as a pact) really.
Greens seem like a wasted vote (partly thanks to a media blackout). I certainly wouldn't trust the Liberal Democrats again.
They have a desire to return to a Britain of the 19th century. No welfare, no NHS, no sick pay, no holiday pay, long hours for low pay. Almost Dickensian.
How exactly could they do that ? Your suggestions are somewhat ridiculous
I agree, People can only take so much, I have to be honest though I dont think they will win, if after 13 years and the 'so called' mess Labour left us in they could not even get a majority I doubt they will in 2015
It wasn't a so called mess. It was an actual mess...roll eyes.
If the Tories win the next election, with a small majority (I really can't see it being a good working majority whatever happens) and without the LibDems to moderate proceedings, expect to see a much more Right-wing term than the last five years, as Cameron struggles to keep the Boneites in check.
If it's a minority government, the LDs need to keep well out of it. Let Cameron go in with the UKIP MPs and the DUP.
If it's a minority government, the LDs need to keep well out of it.
I think it will all depend on what happens to the Lib Dems vote.
If they don't lose too many MPs then they'll see that as the voters supporting their stance on the coalition.
But if they lose 50% or more of their MPs then hopefully they'll not only be insignificant but they'll realise what a mistake they made and won't ever make it again.
Here we go, had this rubbish in 2010. Now it's going to start all over again. "Tories will destroy Britain if they will the Election", only to find in 2020 it's not happened and the threads will start again "Tories will destroy Britain if they win the Election". If only it was illegal for parents to decide their childrens Political views, people might make their own mind up.
They'd just find other reasons for voting Conservative in fairness.
I think it will all depend on what happens to the Lib Dems vote.
If they don't lose too many MPs then they'll see that as the voters supporting their stance on the coalition.
But if they lose 50% or more of their MPs then hopefully they'll not only be insignificant but they'll realise what a mistake they made and won't ever make it again.
Problem is, if they do end up with 50% or so of their MPs, or even 30%, they'll still have more than UKIP.
I want to send UKIP to hell, and the best way to achieve that is to have them in coalition when the decision is made to leave the EU. There will be no justice in the world if they, and their allies in the Tory Party escape responsibility when it all goes tits-up. The LDs in coalition at that time is no good at all.
Problem is, if they do end up with 50% or so of their MPs, or even 30%, they'll still have more than UKIP.
I want to send UKIP to hell, and the best way to achieve that is to have them in coalition when the decision is made to leave the EU. There will be no justice in the world if they, and their allies in the Tory Party escape responsibility when it all goes tits-up. The LDs in coalition at that time is no good at all.
The only good thing about UKIP is that they are splitting the Tory vote.
Labour really need to offer a referendum on the EU. I don't think there is a single person who would not vote for them because they did, but there are plenty who will not vote for them because they haven't offered one.
So on any matter of substance, no worse than a Labour victory then? Well, that's a relief, I can vote Conservative next year with a clear conscience then.
Indeed the major problems with a continuing current coalition would be underfunding of key services - primarily health, defence and some benefits. Plus a dysfunctional housing market. The benefit on current experience is we continue to get good growth rates and rising employment, and tax cuts and slow wage growth gradually make people better off again.
However, the NHS is a big problem for any government without major sustained growth. It, and defence, are now probably 30% underfunded. Labour's tiny proposed NHS changes will make no real difference at all. Defence will probably be even lower in Milliband's priorities, and there will be no significant changes to the benefits legislation that Labour largely introduced anyway. Labour, tax the rich, policies will create similar tales of woe as the bedroom tax has with little fiscal gain.. Labour offers no solution to the dysfunctional houisng market - and probably means higher mortgage rates.
The question is whether less austerity with Labour will be matched by poorer economic growth - as in France. If it is, we get more or less the same cuts with lower growth and employment. We then have less to spend on the NHS and everything else. Thats assuming Labour continues to defy the unions, and hold wages down ,and doesn't also increase inflation there.
Otherwise, the election is going to be about non issues. There will only be a referendum on the EU if people vote Conservative. A UKIP vote stops any movement on UKIPs main issue - as it helps create a Labour/ Liberal/SNP coalition against having one. We will stay in the EU anyway, though,- by about the same margin as the Scots stayed in the UK - for the same reason - that jumping over a cliff, to deal with voter undersatisfaction, is a silly move. There will be a consensus that immigration should be controlled, but no one will find any way to do it.
Problem is, if they do end up with 50% or so of their MPs, or even 30%, they'll still have more than UKIP.
I want to send UKIP to hell, and the best way to achieve that is to have them in coalition when the decision is made to leave the EU. There will be no justice in the world if they, and their allies in the Tory Party escape responsibility when it all goes tits-up. The LDs in coalition at that time is no good at all.
No one expects a no vote. The referendum though solves the problem for the conservatives and UKIP. The Conservatives will split for the campaign, but then have to reunite after the people have spoken. Once there's a vote to stay, UKIP will do a Salmond and blame unfair facts the BBC and yes campaigning - and then return to campaigning against the EU .
More welfare/in work benefit cuts, as already announced by Osborne at the Tory conference.
VAT going up to at least 22.5% I think but maybe even higher.
More tax cuts for big businesses at the expense of the lowest paid!
I predict stagnation and another official recession. I have the feeling we could already be in one actually as a lot of the new jobs are non jobs with people forced into declaring themselves self employed just to get them off the JSA figures. Its why wage figures are not rising and even those that are going up are by the mega paid.
More privatisations where the organisation being privatised will literally be given away and the the prices of it will go up.
One more, on the EU renegotiations, the jury is out on that one. A lot will depend on what the countries in the Eurozone see themselves going into the future as well.
More NHS sales to the private sector
Disabled people been discriminated against some more
Job seekers punished
Sick pay to be reduced
More open borders Ian Duncan smith been given a knighthood for actions against the vulnerable.
Cameron with forgetting his daughter when going for tapas with the mccanns.
More of the ". The mess labour left us in"
I could go on but i dont have 24 hours to spare at the moment
Pretty impressive though when only rich people vote for them. We must have had a lot of rich voters in 1992
Back in 1992, I never understood why the working class or unemployed would vote for the conservatives. But 20 odd years is long enough to come to the realisation most of the electorate are sick of people asking for hand outs. For many of those people it seems that's all the left do. Before anyone says it, I know there is a corporate welfare package for big business. But they are in a position to scratch the backs of the main political parties. We the electorate aren't.
30% of the NHS's budget is underfunded. Everyone needs to pay for it if we want it. The only person I heard come out and say it is Giles Fraser on last weeks question time.
Why aren't more people coming to the conclusion if we want something we have to pay for it and if we can't, it goes.
The NHS is a privilege not a right.
It's all hot Air "the Tories will privatize the NHS". The NHS been around for a long time, it's always been a public service and it will always remain so no matter who gets in. It would be political suicide to sell the whole thing off and no one will do it no matter how many times people say the Tories will do it.
What about Labour's PFI contracts? were they sold to PFI companies in the Public Sector?. What about those people who died in the Stafford hospital on Labours watch?
Remember that £20billion NHS I.T. system just before the 2010 Election? Were the contracts sold to a public sector company?
It doesn't matter who's in charge, every one of them will bring in Private companies. The public don't like it but the Politicians are also fully aware of some kind of backlash if they put up National Insurance by 2-3% instead. Both of the 2 big parties are equally to blame, there's no point attacking the Conservatives without putting as much blame on Labours door.
Yes everything is safe and lovely with the tories.
I say old chap where did you buy your rose tinted spectacles, for they seem to be a top quality brand that work really well.
Personally I would expect violence on the streets like never before seen in the UK.
They have a desire to return to a Britain of the 19th century. No welfare, no NHS, no sick pay, no holiday pay, long hours for low pay. Almost Dickensian.
This government have gerrymandered a "recovery" using cheap/free labour and huge public spending, simply to gain a second term where it all kicks off really.
They have a desire to return to a Britain of the 19th century. No welfare, no NHS, no sick pay, no holiday pay, long hours for low pay. Almost Dickensian.
This government have gerrymandered a "recovery" using cheap/free labour and huge public spending, simply to gain a second term where it all kicks off really.
the deficit is lower now than when they took office. the debt won't reduce until the deficit is eliminated (but someone as clever as you knew that didn't you;-)).
the cheap / free labour is a result of freedom of movement of people within the EU, as well as a sheer lack of desire to reduce non EU immigration.if you honestly think that any other party will change this, then you are very much deluded.
if you are against the huge public spending, then i take it you are in favour of austerity measures?
Back in 1992, I never understood why the working class or unemployed would vote for the conservatives. But 20 odd years is long enough to come to the realisation most of the electorate are sick of people asking for hand outs. For many of those people it seems that's all the left do. Before anyone says it, I know there is a corporate welfare package for big business. But they are in a position to scratch the backs of the main political parties. We the electorate aren't.
30% of the NHS's budget is underfunded. Everyone needs to pay for it if we want it. The only person I heard come out and say it is Giles Fraser on last weeks question time.
Why aren't more people coming to the conclusion if we want something we have to pay for it and if we can't, it goes.
The NHS is a privilege not a right.
Benefit entitlements by definition are not "hand outs".
The seas will boil and the dead shall rise from the grave. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood. Then ed Milliband shall ride forward carrying the mighty shield with bankers bonus tax emblazoned upon it and save us all, as the divide Gordon did previous. For Ed will proclaim that we shall for ever more live together in peace and harmony in the country not hated by thy father. And it shall be good.
Comments
Yeah they tend to keep such things quiet, preferring to keep us plebs occupied with fighting each other over the thought that someone somewhere might be getting a few quid for nothing.
As for Labour their proposed ID cards and their internet surveillance plans had me as angry as anyone else, unlike the way many Tory supporters here are (with the Tories) I have never tried to pretend that Labour are perfect or that they walk on water and can do no wrong, they often made me bloody angry and I have absolutely no doubt that when/if they form the next government I will have plenty of cause to rant against them (mark those words
BUT having said that they have quite a way to go yet before they sink as low as the Tories, (in MY opinion of course)
Problem is we are nowhere near that point, this is something like the 7th wealthiest nation on Earth, we could easily 'provide for the people' if the will to do so was there,
the poor are constantly referred to as "lazy and greedy" by some of the laziest and greediest people on the planet and they are a tiny minority of the people on the planet too, and yet we the plebs allow them to hold all the power and all the wealth,
We are supposed to be in the midst of the most serious global financial crisis in living memory a situation that is almost if not as bad as being in a full scale war in regards to the effects on the economy, "we are all in this together" we are told, as the rich get given a huge income boost, we have to tighten our belts and sacrifices have to be made" we are told as MPs award themselves a massive pay rise, we have no money we are told as we spend millions of pounds a day bombing Libya, and now Iraq. I am certainly not opposed to us giving money for international aid, but do countries with nuclear weapons and a space programme really need cash from us?
do we really "NEED" to up grade trident nuclear missiles are they no good now because they can only kill a piddling 8 million people each, and we NEED to have those bigger ones that can kill 12 million people? seems we do and we can afford them too, meanwhile people like myself are being punished for the crime of having a "spare" bedroom, by people who I am certain spend more on one meal than I and my partner have to live on for a month. I don't begrudge them their expensive meal but I am certainly "a tad" annoyed at them telling me that it's my fault that my partners children got jobs and left home, and it's her fault that she became too ill to work full time.
IF things are as bad as we are told they are then why don't we have a national coalition government like we did during the war? why aren't the rich being asked to 'help out'?
"all in it together" and all that, why not an emergency tax rate in the national interest a sort of 'Blitz spirit'? surely any decent government should be calling for a national unified front in such a 'dire' situation? (I mean if things are so bad and we are so broke that we have to punish people for spare room crime, and others have to use food banks to survive)
Fact is, that no party will do anything that might upset the rich, they prefer to pretend that we are all "in it together" but only expect the poor to suffer. while deliberately setting the 'plebs' against each other as a distraction. if we were united instead of bickering, then we just might get a government "of the people and for the people"
as opposed to "of the wealthy and for the wealthy"
There is a very long way to go before we reach such a situation, it's all about priorities, and perhaps the wealthy putting their hands in their pockets and feeling just a tiny bit of the pain that the ordinary man and woman is feeling, just for a short time,
So I am not a working man then.
Despite the fact that I have never earned enough to pay a higher rate of tax.
By the way OP you are exaggerating in a major way.
Take the NHS for example, they are trying to privatise it by stealth.
They've already made dentistry private for people who earn over a certain amount.
Zero hours contracts are another attempt to erode workers rights.
Thanks for the informative post OLD HIPPY GUY. I must admit I'm coming around to your way of thinking. Maybe Labour aren't so bad after all. Certainly on surveilance and free speech they're NO different but I do like to think they'd protect workers rights and the disabled more than the Tories.
If people don't like the Tories, there are other alternatives than just Labour.
The only viable alternative who seem to be able to make a dent is UKIP but I don't know whet to make of them. Farage is talking about taking income tax off the minimum wage but just over a year ago he was saying on Fox News he was against it and implied it was massive. Unsure if they've genuinely moved more to the left or not. It's hard to know until they get some power (even as a pact) really.
Greens seem like a wasted vote (partly thanks to a media blackout). I certainly wouldn't trust the Liberal Democrats again.
How exactly could they do that ? Your suggestions are somewhat ridiculous
It wasn't a so called mess. It was an actual mess...roll eyes. If what you say is true, the Conservatives would never ever win an election.
the last one they won was in 1992, over 20 years ago.
If it's a minority government, the LDs need to keep well out of it. Let Cameron go in with the UKIP MPs and the DUP.
I think it will all depend on what happens to the Lib Dems vote.
If they don't lose too many MPs then they'll see that as the voters supporting their stance on the coalition.
But if they lose 50% or more of their MPs then hopefully they'll not only be insignificant but they'll realise what a mistake they made and won't ever make it again.
They'd just find other reasons for voting Conservative in fairness.
Problem is, if they do end up with 50% or so of their MPs, or even 30%, they'll still have more than UKIP.
I want to send UKIP to hell, and the best way to achieve that is to have them in coalition when the decision is made to leave the EU. There will be no justice in the world if they, and their allies in the Tory Party escape responsibility when it all goes tits-up. The LDs in coalition at that time is no good at all.
The only good thing about UKIP is that they are splitting the Tory vote.
Labour really need to offer a referendum on the EU. I don't think there is a single person who would not vote for them because they did, but there are plenty who will not vote for them because they haven't offered one.
Indeed the major problems with a continuing current coalition would be underfunding of key services - primarily health, defence and some benefits. Plus a dysfunctional housing market. The benefit on current experience is we continue to get good growth rates and rising employment, and tax cuts and slow wage growth gradually make people better off again.
However, the NHS is a big problem for any government without major sustained growth. It, and defence, are now probably 30% underfunded. Labour's tiny proposed NHS changes will make no real difference at all. Defence will probably be even lower in Milliband's priorities, and there will be no significant changes to the benefits legislation that Labour largely introduced anyway. Labour, tax the rich, policies will create similar tales of woe as the bedroom tax has with little fiscal gain.. Labour offers no solution to the dysfunctional houisng market - and probably means higher mortgage rates.
The question is whether less austerity with Labour will be matched by poorer economic growth - as in France. If it is, we get more or less the same cuts with lower growth and employment. We then have less to spend on the NHS and everything else. Thats assuming Labour continues to defy the unions, and hold wages down ,and doesn't also increase inflation there.
Otherwise, the election is going to be about non issues. There will only be a referendum on the EU if people vote Conservative. A UKIP vote stops any movement on UKIPs main issue - as it helps create a Labour/ Liberal/SNP coalition against having one. We will stay in the EU anyway, though,- by about the same margin as the Scots stayed in the UK - for the same reason - that jumping over a cliff, to deal with voter undersatisfaction, is a silly move. There will be a consensus that immigration should be controlled, but no one will find any way to do it.
No one expects a no vote. The referendum though solves the problem for the conservatives and UKIP. The Conservatives will split for the campaign, but then have to reunite after the people have spoken. Once there's a vote to stay, UKIP will do a Salmond and blame unfair facts the BBC and yes campaigning - and then return to campaigning against the EU .
look at France under Hollande, its a basket case of a country.
Pretty impressive though when only rich people vote for them. We must have had a lot of rich voters in 1992
VAT going up to at least 22.5% I think but maybe even higher.
More tax cuts for big businesses at the expense of the lowest paid!
I predict stagnation and another official recession. I have the feeling we could already be in one actually as a lot of the new jobs are non jobs with people forced into declaring themselves self employed just to get them off the JSA figures. Its why wage figures are not rising and even those that are going up are by the mega paid.
More privatisations where the organisation being privatised will literally be given away and the the prices of it will go up.
One more, on the EU renegotiations, the jury is out on that one. A lot will depend on what the countries in the Eurozone see themselves going into the future as well.
...:D
Back in 1992, I never understood why the working class or unemployed would vote for the conservatives. But 20 odd years is long enough to come to the realisation most of the electorate are sick of people asking for hand outs. For many of those people it seems that's all the left do. Before anyone says it, I know there is a corporate welfare package for big business. But they are in a position to scratch the backs of the main political parties. We the electorate aren't.
30% of the NHS's budget is underfunded. Everyone needs to pay for it if we want it. The only person I heard come out and say it is Giles Fraser on last weeks question time.
Why aren't more people coming to the conclusion if we want something we have to pay for it and if we can't, it goes.
The NHS is a privilege not a right.
Yes everything is safe and lovely with the tories.
I say old chap where did you buy your rose tinted spectacles, for they seem to be a top quality brand that work really well.
this is borderline emotive drivel.
why?
rubbish. proof please?
the deficit is lower now than when they took office. the debt won't reduce until the deficit is eliminated (but someone as clever as you knew that didn't you;-)).
the cheap / free labour is a result of freedom of movement of people within the EU, as well as a sheer lack of desire to reduce non EU immigration.if you honestly think that any other party will change this, then you are very much deluded.
if you are against the huge public spending, then i take it you are in favour of austerity measures?
Benefit entitlements by definition are not "hand outs".