Personally I think it was a mistake that they were introduced to start with. It would of been more interesting imo if the Doctor was kept as a mystery (hence Doctor Who).
We would know he's not human, two hearts and all the other differences would come up, but we wouldn't know where he is from, maybe each time he is asked he gives a different answer, like how The Joker gives a different answers of how he came to be which adds to his mystique, or maybe he just brushes the question off.
You lose the stories that are to do with Timelords but imo that's no great loss as they are not that interesting. They just take away from the Doctors character and make him less interesting as rather than being some strange unknowable unique figure that will take you on random adventures through the universe he becomes just a member of a powerful race who can do all the things he can, sure he's renegade and acts different from them but he's still a part of them you know where he is from and can therefor understand him, the mystery is lost and he becomes like any other Sci Fi characters that belongs to an alien race.
You lose the question marks over his character. If we didn't know where he was from then there would be speculation and questions, who is he, where is he from, is he a future human or an genetically engineered human or alien. Where did the Tardis come from, did he make it, if there's no one else like him that we come across maybe he's not from this universe etc. We would be fascinated as to who or what he is, but we never find out and are just fed conflicting information, it would make us question the Doctor himself, why doesn't he tell, why does he lie etc.
To me that would be far more entertaining and interesting than oh he's a member of a powerful race who have Tardises too but don't really use them, the Doc got bored of living with them so ran away.
But others might like the themes they can explore by grounding the Doctors character like they have by revealing him as a Timelord and I can understand that, its just I prefer the mysterious traveller having random adventures in space thing.
PaperSkin - I TOTALLY agree with you on that post!!!
The Doctor should remain as a mysterious guy - if the Time Lord's hadn't been introduced, we wouldn't have this problem! The Master could have been a 'mystery' person from his past...no problem there.
I like to think that The Doctor invented his own Tardis.
Anyway we are going skewifff here!! This is what I think!! (Bonkers):o
Time-Lords are welcome at any time! (Snobby sods!)
With The Master I go back and forth. As I like the character but it contradicts what I said above.
I would probably just have the Master in the third Doctor era as a friend the Doctor made while staying on some planet or future earth for a bit that went sour because The Master tried to steal his Tardis. The Master comes to 70s Earth in a crude timeship, his ultimate objective is to learn the Doctors secrets and control his Tardis, and tries to take over the world to make the Doctor comply or something like that. But I would leave the character there, I loved Missy but she could be someone else from his pass (a disgruntled ex companion or wife)
With The Master I go back and forth. As I like the character but it contradicts what I said above.
I would probably just have the Master in the third Doctor era as a friend the Doctor made while staying on some planet or future earth for a bit that went sour because The Master tried to steal his Tardis. The Master comes to 70s Earth in a crude timeship, his ultimate objective is to learn the Doctors secrets and control his Tardis, and tries to take over the world to make the Doctor comply or something like that. But I would leave the character there, I loved Missy but she could be someone else from his pass (a disgruntled ex companion or wife)
If the doctors going to have an ultimate nemesis then it needs to be equal to the doctor basically they has the same skills/abilities etc as the doctor otherwise we end up with an "oh its professor plum in the library with the lead pipe" within the first 30 seconds and it becomes silly
If the doctors going to have an ultimate nemesis then it needs to be equal to the doctor basically they has the same skills/abilities etc as the doctor otherwise we end up with an "oh its professor plum in the library with the lead pipe" within the first 30 seconds and it becomes silly
Why does The Doctor need an ultimate nemesis that's just like him. The Daleks, the Weaping Angels, Gas Mask Zombies, The Devil, The Silents, Cybermen are nothing like him but that doesn't mean they are not deadly or interesting threats that entertain.
Plus having a evil counter part (the bad twin) is quite unimaginative and cliché and is something all shows can and usually do, Doctor Who can go anywhere I think its more interesting for him to come across strange and different foes like the boneless, the mummy, the flood, weaping angels, midnight entity, daleks rather than someone who is just like him. All of space and time and he ends up having epic fights with his old friend, he might as well of stayed home to do that.
I guess I just prefer the traveller randomly having adventures through time and space with exotic aliens that are a threat idea, rather than the more traditional fighting someone like yourself that represents a dark mirror, as that doesn't have a exploring the unknown vibe and is less alien and random (if that makes sense)
No - I don't want to see any stories set on Gallifrey again (or at least for a long time). I found those stories set there to be lacking somewhat for the most part. What I would not mind seeing is some individual timelords.
I always hoped when Gallifrey was destroyed we'd eventually have a handful of escapees from the destruction in a not dissimilar way to Superman initially being the sole survivor eventually being joined by a handful of other Kryptonians mirrored in Nu Who.
I think they missed a trick not having the Doctor meet a surviving Time Lord who blamed him for Gallifrey's end.
Personally I think it was a mistake that they were introduced to start with. It would of been more interesting imo if the Doctor was kept as a mystery (hence Doctor Who).
We would know he's not human, two hearts and all the other differences would come up, but we wouldn't know where he is from, maybe each time he is asked he gives a different answer, like how The Joker gives a different answers of how he came to be which adds to his mystique, or maybe he just brushes the question off.
You lose the stories that are to do with Timelords but imo that's no great loss as they are not that interesting. They just take away from the Doctors character and make him less interesting as rather than being some strange unknowable unique figure that will take you on random adventures through the universe he becomes just a member of a powerful race who can do all the things he can, sure he's renegade and acts different from them but he's still a part of them you know where he is from and can therefor understand him, the mystery is lost and he becomes like any other Sci Fi characters that belongs to an alien race.
You lose the question marks over his character. If we didn't know where he was from then there would be speculation and questions, who is he, where is he from, is he a future human or an genetically engineered human or alien. Where did the Tardis come from, did he make it, if there's no one else like him that we come across maybe he's not from this universe etc. We would be fascinated as to who or what he is, but we never find out and are just fed conflicting information, it would make us question the Doctor himself, why doesn't he tell, why does he lie etc.
To me that would be far more entertaining and interesting than oh he's a member of a powerful race who have Tardises too but don't really use them, the Doc got bored of living with them so ran away.
But others might like the themes they can explore by grounding the Doctors character like they have by revealing him as a Timelord and I can understand that, its just I prefer the mysterious traveller having random adventures in space thing.
I disagree.
Firstly, the Time Lords were introduced as a very big part of the story of the Doctor: He had to enlist their help to return all the abductees in The War Games to their rightful times and places. As a result he lost his then companions and was forced to regenerate and then be exiled on Earth. Far from unimportant and uninteresting.
Secondly, I'd argue that the "mystery" of the background and history the Doctor himself is not a very important part of series. Most mysteries in dramas need to be eventually resolved, if the audience is to be satisfied and entertained by the narrative. If it was important, most viewers would have long since grown impatient. Being an ongoing episodic series, rather than a one-off or a mini-series with distinct beginning, middle and end to a story, the Doctor has to stay unresolved and mysterious. To do that, his mystery is treated in the series as unimportant and is hardly ever developed. It's because it's an ongoing series that we still don't know about his family, history or even exactly why he left Gallifrey. Whether it's known he's a member of a certain race or not is unimportant to the series.
To most of the audience, the "story of the week" is what grabs them and is important.
PaperSkin - I TOTALLY agree with you on that post!!!
PaperSkin I totally disagree with your post!
Mystery is all very well as long as you know there'll be a pay off. Mystery that will never be resolved? No. I don't see the point of keeping us guessing if we never ever get the answer to our guesses.
Unresolved questions annoy me and fleshing out a character's background and origins is what differentiates good characterization from the cardboard two-dimensional stereotypes with no backstory.
To me, the Doctor's background as a Time Lord made him much cooler than just some undefined alien travelling around. Now he's established as a renegade from one of the most powerful races in the Universe. That gives him special status as well as providing the means to challenge him with equally powerful enemies or scenarios that would otherwise be too contrived.
If I had to watch the Doctor for 50 years and end up not knowing him any better after that time than at the start I would feel cheated. Getting to know what makes the protagonist tick is part of what allows us to identify with them, to feel that we know them and connect with them.
Personally I'm annoyed we still don't know about his parents or children or how Susan came to be.
Even if they weren't connected with the Doctor the idea of a race of beings with mastery over time is just cool :cool:
I think that its the companion we should identify with and get to know, it's their story and what allows the show to refresh itself as its not just the Doctors story that we are following but the interesting people he picks up, the Doctor should be the enigma and the catalyst for stories but its the companion we connect with while like them being intrigued and mystified by this strange man that can take them anywhere.
Thrombin, if we ever did find out all the things about the Doctor we, the fans, would want to know, the series would be over. Who cares to know what happened next after "Happily ever after" with all questions resolved?
Got a theory it will all kick off with Galifrey next series. Maybe not right away but will be bubbling away in the background. Until the finale. If Missy does come back maybe Doctor will be forced into an unholy alliance with her. Enemy of my enemy is my former friend. In TEOT they both worked together to stop the time lords returning.
Thrombin, if we ever did find out all the things about the Doctor we, the fans, would want to know, the series would be over. Who cares to know what happened next after "Happily ever after" with all questions resolved?
Learning more about his past, his family and his people's culture doesn't mean we know what will happen next or that everything is "happily ever after".
Nor do we have to know everything. Answers to one mystery may lead to more questions but if there's never an answer to the questions what's the point? I don't see that mystery just for the sake of vagueness is particularly interesting!
That's something of a side issue, though. I would want Gallifrey back even if it had nothing to do with the Doctor. I find the whole idea of a race of people with power over time to be a brilliant idea in its own right and a rich source of material for the show. I loved Big Finish's Gallifrey series and that carried the story of Gallifrey for years without any involvement from the Doctor at all!
I think that its the companion we should identify with and get to know, it's their story and what allows the show to refresh itself as its not just the Doctors story that we are following but the interesting people he picks up, the Doctor should be the enigma and the catalyst for stories but its the companion we connect with while like them being intrigued and mystified by this strange man that can take them anywhere.
I take your point. It was often the companion's job to be the one the audience identified with and not the Doctor. Having said that, the companions come and go. The Doctor has been the only constant and, after 50 years, some of the things we don't know about him just feel like pointless omissions rather than any sense of mystery. The excitement of a mystery is the idea that we'll find the answer, if we never find the answer the mysteries just seem like holes in the backstory that nobody can be bothered to fill in!
It's not something that inhabits my every waking thought but a story revealing some of these mysteries would be, for me, immensely satisfying and exciting and Gallifrey coming back would be the best way to make that happen.
Learning more about his past, his family and his people's culture doesn't mean we know what will happen next or that everything is "happily ever after".
I quite agree. You've sort of made my point for me :
The series, Doctor Who is not really about the Doctor. If the normal rules of drama were being followed, and the story was actually about the Doctor, and we'd resolved every significant question about the Doctor's past, the story would be over.
Nor do we have to know everything. Answers to one mystery may lead to more questions but if there's never an answer to the questions what's the point? I don't see that mystery just for the sake of vagueness is particularly interesting!
I agree. The state of knowledge we have about the Doctor, gained in the course of the series, is minimal. That just reflects the lack of importance of the Doctor's backstory to the series. Despite being the central, and (almost, but not quite) the eponymous character (we don't actually know his name) the series is not about the Doctor as such.
It's all about the story of the week and the current companion.
I think this is a trait of 1960s television series in general: There's always a background to the hero figure that drives he or she (almost always "he" in the 1960s) forward. e.g. In a police drama it's the fact that the hero is a police officer that propels the character into the story of the week. In a prosaic setting that "origin" needn't be explained - everyone knows what a policeman does. Another example: In original Star Trek, the details of the Federation were very deliberately kept vague. With the occasional exception, main characters' backgrounds are never resolved or given huge prominence. Many fans, of course, wanted that explored, and in fact the best episodes do explore character backgrounds (notably Spock's), but they are few and far between.
The reason for not delving into the main characters' backgrounds is: It's an episodic television series, with no planned ending. It's the opposite of drama because, at the end of each episode, nothing important should have changed for the main characters. It's why, in 1960s, 70s and 80s TV shows, typically the new girlfriend or old-friend-we've-never-seen-before, of the week, is always killed off or says goodbye by the end of the episode.
Television has changed in the 21st century. It's no longer acceptable to construct a series that way. To some extent, that's why we have been given more about the Doctor's background, and developed his story, since it's return than all of classic Doctor Who.
That's something of a side issue, though. I would want Gallifrey back even if it had nothing to do with the Doctor. I find the whole idea of a race of people with power over time to be a brilliant idea in its own right and a rich source of material for the show. I loved Big Finish's Gallifrey series and that carried the story of Gallifrey for years without any involvement from the Doctor at all!
I don't mind Time Lords returning, but they should stay in the background and be used only occasionally. They'd need to be handled carefully: E.g. There'd have to be a reason for them to, basically, leave the Doctor alone.
I don't mind Time Lords returning, but they should stay in the background and be used only occasionally. They'd need to be handled carefully: E.g. There'd have to be a reason for them to, basically, leave the Doctor alone.
I agree. I'm not suggesting they should be an integral part of every episode or anything. Having them appear in the occasional story is fine. There was no problem keeping them occasional in the classic series.
Mind you, I think they'd make a great spin-off. Gel Lalla Ward back with John Leeson and carry on the Big Finish Gallifrey stuff on TV
Personally I don't, I just found them a bit dull in the classics. I thin RTD did the right thing getting rid of them tbh.
Thats the point, they're supposed to be stuffy, overbearing, pompous and snooty. They're a parody of the british ruling classes, or did that pass you by?
Comments
Being the last was one of the best ideas RTD had for the current version.
We would know he's not human, two hearts and all the other differences would come up, but we wouldn't know where he is from, maybe each time he is asked he gives a different answer, like how The Joker gives a different answers of how he came to be which adds to his mystique, or maybe he just brushes the question off.
You lose the stories that are to do with Timelords but imo that's no great loss as they are not that interesting. They just take away from the Doctors character and make him less interesting as rather than being some strange unknowable unique figure that will take you on random adventures through the universe he becomes just a member of a powerful race who can do all the things he can, sure he's renegade and acts different from them but he's still a part of them you know where he is from and can therefor understand him, the mystery is lost and he becomes like any other Sci Fi characters that belongs to an alien race.
You lose the question marks over his character. If we didn't know where he was from then there would be speculation and questions, who is he, where is he from, is he a future human or an genetically engineered human or alien. Where did the Tardis come from, did he make it, if there's no one else like him that we come across maybe he's not from this universe etc. We would be fascinated as to who or what he is, but we never find out and are just fed conflicting information, it would make us question the Doctor himself, why doesn't he tell, why does he lie etc.
To me that would be far more entertaining and interesting than oh he's a member of a powerful race who have Tardises too but don't really use them, the Doc got bored of living with them so ran away.
But others might like the themes they can explore by grounding the Doctors character like they have by revealing him as a Timelord and I can understand that, its just I prefer the mysterious traveller having random adventures in space thing.
The Doctor should remain as a mysterious guy - if the Time Lord's hadn't been introduced, we wouldn't have this problem! The Master could have been a 'mystery' person from his past...no problem there.
I like to think that The Doctor invented his own Tardis.
Anyway we are going skewifff here!! This is what I think!! (Bonkers):o
Time-Lords are welcome at any time! (Snobby sods!)
With The Master I go back and forth. As I like the character but it contradicts what I said above.
I would probably just have the Master in the third Doctor era as a friend the Doctor made while staying on some planet or future earth for a bit that went sour because The Master tried to steal his Tardis. The Master comes to 70s Earth in a crude timeship, his ultimate objective is to learn the Doctors secrets and control his Tardis, and tries to take over the world to make the Doctor comply or something like that. But I would leave the character there, I loved Missy but she could be someone else from his pass (a disgruntled ex companion or wife)
If the doctors going to have an ultimate nemesis then it needs to be equal to the doctor basically they has the same skills/abilities etc as the doctor otherwise we end up with an "oh its professor plum in the library with the lead pipe" within the first 30 seconds and it becomes silly
Why does The Doctor need an ultimate nemesis that's just like him. The Daleks, the Weaping Angels, Gas Mask Zombies, The Devil, The Silents, Cybermen are nothing like him but that doesn't mean they are not deadly or interesting threats that entertain.
I always hoped when Gallifrey was destroyed we'd eventually have a handful of escapees from the destruction in a not dissimilar way to Superman initially being the sole survivor eventually being joined by a handful of other Kryptonians mirrored in Nu Who.
I think they missed a trick not having the Doctor meet a surviving Time Lord who blamed him for Gallifrey's end.
I disagree.
Firstly, the Time Lords were introduced as a very big part of the story of the Doctor: He had to enlist their help to return all the abductees in The War Games to their rightful times and places. As a result he lost his then companions and was forced to regenerate and then be exiled on Earth. Far from unimportant and uninteresting.
Secondly, I'd argue that the "mystery" of the background and history the Doctor himself is not a very important part of series. Most mysteries in dramas need to be eventually resolved, if the audience is to be satisfied and entertained by the narrative. If it was important, most viewers would have long since grown impatient. Being an ongoing episodic series, rather than a one-off or a mini-series with distinct beginning, middle and end to a story, the Doctor has to stay unresolved and mysterious. To do that, his mystery is treated in the series as unimportant and is hardly ever developed. It's because it's an ongoing series that we still don't know about his family, history or even exactly why he left Gallifrey. Whether it's known he's a member of a certain race or not is unimportant to the series.
To most of the audience, the "story of the week" is what grabs them and is important.
PaperSkin I totally disagree with your post!
Mystery is all very well as long as you know there'll be a pay off. Mystery that will never be resolved? No. I don't see the point of keeping us guessing if we never ever get the answer to our guesses.
Unresolved questions annoy me and fleshing out a character's background and origins is what differentiates good characterization from the cardboard two-dimensional stereotypes with no backstory.
To me, the Doctor's background as a Time Lord made him much cooler than just some undefined alien travelling around. Now he's established as a renegade from one of the most powerful races in the Universe. That gives him special status as well as providing the means to challenge him with equally powerful enemies or scenarios that would otherwise be too contrived.
If I had to watch the Doctor for 50 years and end up not knowing him any better after that time than at the start I would feel cheated. Getting to know what makes the protagonist tick is part of what allows us to identify with them, to feel that we know them and connect with them.
Personally I'm annoyed we still don't know about his parents or children or how Susan came to be.
Even if they weren't connected with the Doctor the idea of a race of beings with mastery over time is just cool :cool:
Learning more about his past, his family and his people's culture doesn't mean we know what will happen next or that everything is "happily ever after".
Nor do we have to know everything. Answers to one mystery may lead to more questions but if there's never an answer to the questions what's the point? I don't see that mystery just for the sake of vagueness is particularly interesting!
That's something of a side issue, though. I would want Gallifrey back even if it had nothing to do with the Doctor. I find the whole idea of a race of people with power over time to be a brilliant idea in its own right and a rich source of material for the show. I loved Big Finish's Gallifrey series and that carried the story of Gallifrey for years without any involvement from the Doctor at all!
I take your point. It was often the companion's job to be the one the audience identified with and not the Doctor. Having said that, the companions come and go. The Doctor has been the only constant and, after 50 years, some of the things we don't know about him just feel like pointless omissions rather than any sense of mystery. The excitement of a mystery is the idea that we'll find the answer, if we never find the answer the mysteries just seem like holes in the backstory that nobody can be bothered to fill in!
It's not something that inhabits my every waking thought but a story revealing some of these mysteries would be, for me, immensely satisfying and exciting and Gallifrey coming back would be the best way to make that happen.
I quite agree. You've sort of made my point for me
The series, Doctor Who is not really about the Doctor. If the normal rules of drama were being followed, and the story was actually about the Doctor, and we'd resolved every significant question about the Doctor's past, the story would be over.
I agree. The state of knowledge we have about the Doctor, gained in the course of the series, is minimal. That just reflects the lack of importance of the Doctor's backstory to the series. Despite being the central, and (almost, but not quite) the eponymous character (we don't actually know his name) the series is not about the Doctor as such.
It's all about the story of the week and the current companion.
I think this is a trait of 1960s television series in general: There's always a background to the hero figure that drives he or she (almost always "he" in the 1960s) forward. e.g. In a police drama it's the fact that the hero is a police officer that propels the character into the story of the week. In a prosaic setting that "origin" needn't be explained - everyone knows what a policeman does. Another example: In original Star Trek, the details of the Federation were very deliberately kept vague. With the occasional exception, main characters' backgrounds are never resolved or given huge prominence. Many fans, of course, wanted that explored, and in fact the best episodes do explore character backgrounds (notably Spock's), but they are few and far between.
The reason for not delving into the main characters' backgrounds is: It's an episodic television series, with no planned ending. It's the opposite of drama because, at the end of each episode, nothing important should have changed for the main characters. It's why, in 1960s, 70s and 80s TV shows, typically the new girlfriend or old-friend-we've-never-seen-before, of the week, is always killed off or says goodbye by the end of the episode.
Television has changed in the 21st century. It's no longer acceptable to construct a series that way. To some extent, that's why we have been given more about the Doctor's background, and developed his story, since it's return than all of classic Doctor Who.
I don't mind Time Lords returning, but they should stay in the background and be used only occasionally. They'd need to be handled carefully: E.g. There'd have to be a reason for them to, basically, leave the Doctor alone.
I agree. I'm not suggesting they should be an integral part of every episode or anything. Having them appear in the occasional story is fine. There was no problem keeping them occasional in the classic series.
Mind you, I think they'd make a great spin-off. Gel Lalla Ward back with John Leeson and carry on the Big Finish Gallifrey stuff on TV
Thats the point, they're supposed to be stuffy, overbearing, pompous and snooty. They're a parody of the british ruling classes, or did that pass you by?