Can we go back to discussing the episode, rather than tearing strips off each other? Please?
Regarding Declan's question, I would say it's almost certainly a national thing with lots of different criminals. After all, we can see how successful this one is, so any smart businessman would expand it.
I also think they would alter the scenarios. Perhaps each actor would train for a slightly different story, so it wasn't always exactly the same thing every day until they got to the transmitting station, obviously. Plus they'd probably rotate the prisoners around the country to get people going back to their local "park". "Ooh look, dear. Next month they've got that bastard who strangled all those prostitutes. We've gotta see that one."
I thought that was quite special. Possibly the best thing Charlie Brooker has done.
I can imagine film rights being bought for this story like they were for one of the episodes in the last series.
I found it quite distressing to watch, but very good indeed.
I didn't say the program was perfect or Brooker is a genius anymore than I have suggested you are a flying unicorn.
So why does it make you so angry when other people don't find it perfect either?
Quite frankly I've seen masses of films / dramas with twist endings, and I can honestly say that I've never seen a single one where the twist hasn't rendered what came before it illogical or contrived in some way or another. Sometimes it's a minor thing, and sometimes it's a major show stopper. But there's always some flaw. You can't spend 45 minutes misdirecting an audience and not have to cheat slightly somewhere; it's the nature of the game. It would be nice to think Brooker is above all that, but he isn't. I happen to think that the point he was making about our need to see "justice" meted out could've worked better without the trickery; you disagree. Fine.
I still feel quite speechless about this to be honest. There is so much I want to say about it and yet can't quite form a cohesive comment. I do know that I will remember it for a very long time. The part where she was tied to the tree trunk and crying 'I'm a human being!' particularly got to me, especially with the hindsight of the reveal at the end.
All I can say with absolute certainty is that this is a world with many recognisable elements but I would never ever want to be part of a real life version of it.
Hence the title of the show, Black Mirror.
(btw this is not a dig at you! Some other posters, maybe...)
Not my favourite episode and I'm not too sure why there is so much hype over this one, probably because it was more like a zombie horror movie with quite a bit of action rather than the other episodes. Still a lot to think about, I'm really glad someone reminded me how they mentioned her mental illness at the start of the episode, it does kind of explain why she reacted to the torture the way she did.
We are so quick to judge in our society and the news loves to give out big stories that the whole country follows and some people are assumed guilty even before they've walked into court.
I know that most people are assuming that she took the recordings... but we don't actually know if she did it or if she was just framed.
Really makes you think where the focus of "justice" is to make the public feel better rather than to "rehabilitate" the "murderer" or even just the person viewing the murder in this case. I wonder what they would do when public interest turned into another case and there was no longer an audience to see the lead character suffer anymore.
She didn't really come across as someone who would kidnap a girl and then film her being murdered either really, someone who would do that would be a psychopath and pretty cold and emotionless, whereas she was crying, snivelling and terrified through the whole thing, I guess that was for the purpose of the plot so we didn't guess who she was.
I think that was definitely the entire point.
For the people who question the punishment aspect of it by suggesting it's not a very good punishment if she keeps forgetting each time.....I suspect that this is the whole point of the story.
In a way I think it's a very good thing that several people have said that they don't know what they just watched, but it was good. To have that effect is useful for creating a lasting impression where people can think about it again. There appeared to be several ideas being addressed in the same story.
How I saw it.....
She keeps forgetting what happened.
So effectively she's innocent of whatever she has been accused of. If you see what I mean.
I think the story is not really about the punishment and how effective it is, but about the people who are watching the punishment as entertainment to satisfy their own base urges.
It's a case of turning the tables as making the apparently guilty the innocent party, and the seemingly 'innocent' mob who just watch for their own selfish ends the 'evil'.
It's good that it didn't go into too much detail about the past crime she is supposed to be guilty of because for all we know she may well have been forced into it as the news item hinted at the possibility of.
Whatever she did or didn't do, whether she was guilty or not, as she has had her mind wiped she is for all intents and purposes innocent.
The scrutiny is placed on the mob (and ourselves) and their notion of what justice is, and whether it serves real justice or whether it just serves their own evil urges.
I think that this was the most chilling aspect to the story. That it turns the Black Mirror on ourselves.
So why does it make you so angry when other people don't find it perfect either?
Quite frankly I've seen masses of films / dramas with twist endings, and I can honestly say that I've never seen a single one where the twist hasn't rendered what came before it illogical or contrived in some way or another. Sometimes it's a minor thing, and sometimes it's a major show stopper. But there's always some flaw. You can't spend 45 minutes misdirecting an audience and not have to cheat slightly somewhere; it's the nature of the game. It would be nice to think Brooker is above all that, but he isn't. I happen to think that the point he was making about our need to see "justice" meted out could've worked better without the trickery; you disagree. Fine.
Some of us are trying :rolleyes:
That's not what I said. What I said is arguing about holes that aren't actually in the material because you missed the parts where they were explained is a problem that can be solved by watching it again and paying attention. If you claim not to catch the dragon in The Hobbit's name being Smaug because you were too focused on Martin Freeman's hairy feet is not an actual problem in the script. Now, please feel free to re-read my posts where I am trying to discuss the actual content of the show then look at your own which did not, and only targeted me. Then realise the inherent problem with your own supposed argument and then feel free to join in the on the actual debate.
This thread is a joke. No criticisms, alternative viewpoints or questions allowed. By two FMs who have been here for 5 minutes, no less. Perhaps Brooker should make a show about patronising pseudo intellectual wannabe tv critics.
Your tenure here dictates your right to an opinion? I'm sorry, I didn't read that in the forum rules. Your own imagined perception of the heirarchy of this forum is just as irrelevant as you think my views are. However I am trying to actually discuss the program, not insult people because I assume my tenure entitles me to anything that is not actually real or explicit in the forum rules or guidelines. Your own argument is illogical based off your own contradictory views that aren't even pertinent to the subject being discussed. Now feel free to actually respond to my opinions rather than attempt to denigrate my character, that's what we're trying to do, myself included, despite your assertions to support your own presumptive perception. Your snide comments are not constructive to the actual dialogue here.
Regarding Declan's question, I would say it's almost certainly a national thing with lots of different criminals. After all, we can see how successful this one is, so any smart businessman would expand it.
I also think they would alter the scenarios. Perhaps each actor would train for a slightly different story, so it wasn't always exactly the same thing every day until they got to the transmitting station, obviously. Plus they'd probably rotate the prisoners around the country to get people going back to their local "park". "Ooh look, dear. Next month they've got that bastard who strangled all those prostitutes. We've gotta see that one."
I think in a way it shares themes with 15 Million Merits ending with him on TV every day ranting with a piece of glass at his own neck, only to sit down in relative comfort at the end of the day even if we never found out if those windows to the outside world were real or just screens. The sense of being trapped, having to earn your way out only to realise you're still caged by the constraints of the system, entertaining other people at your own expense... I do think the first and second episodes so far are also reflections of the other side of the situations depicted in the first series first two episodes as well.
I would have been interested to see them scroll through the "options" on the phone's app, that could have opened the door for some of your suggestions like "Whipsnade Rehabilitation Park: Charlie Porter, Animal and Ivory Smuggler" or something like that.
I think the point of it is to make us question whether torturing child killers (and the like) is really what we would want? We've all probably thought about how we'd like to see these people tortured for what they've done, but would we really want this? I wouldn't.
Yes, it would make the mob no less guilty than the accused.
She filmed the girl being tortured, the mob films her being tortured. It would make the collective crowd no different. Only her crime hadn't been sanctioned and validated.
It's been said earlier but I think it was quite simply a case of what would happen if the old 'eye for an eye' mantra many advocate actually came to reality.
She was put through the exact same torment that the murdered girl was. She had her brain wiped meaning she was confused and essentially childlike, she was put in a situation where she didn't want to be, was constantly in fear of her life and was being filmed by gleeful onlookers despite the sickening scenarios taking place.
In the end came the realisation that everyone involved was in fact committing the same crime in some way or another. The main character watched the young girl being killed for entertainment whilst the audience themselves watched a woman be mentally killed for their own entrainment.
I hear what you're all saying. I just feel that the way it's written is somewhat contrived in order to give the viewer a big reveal about what's going on at the end. There are more logical ways to torture a criminal for public satisfaction, but from a dramatic point of view it's hard to have the offender in on it without the viewer being in on it also. Hence the reason they arrived at this; it's as much about what makes sense as drama as much as it is about plausibility.
I don't think it's about torturing a criminal for public satisfaction in a 'logical' way.
I don't think that whatever system is in place in the story has much concern about how logical or not it is. It seems to be more motivated by giving the public what they want, and I imagine profiting from it.
It's been said earlier but I think it was quite simply a case of what would happen if the old 'eye for an eye' mantra many advocate actually came to reality.
She was put through the exact same torment that the murdered girl was. She had her brain wiped meaning she was confused and essentially childlike, she was put in a situation where she didn't want to be, was constantly in fear of her life and was being filmed by gleeful onlookers despite the sickening scenarios taking place.
In the end came the realisation that everyone involved was in fact committing the same crime in some way or another. The main character watched the young girl being killed for entertainment whilst the audience themselves watched a woman be mentally killed for their own entrainment.
Thank you!
I owe you a beer or glass of white/red wine of your choice.
Also, let me be one of the first to also mention the obvious influences; The Running Man, Total Recall, The Game, Lord Of The Flies, Double Jeopardy, The Long Kiss Goodnight, Memento.
Perfect in terms of what Black Mirror does though - imagine Myra Hindley or Jimmy Saville in Victoria's position. When all is said and done, how much did the public want all those evil murderers or peodophiles to suffer or still do? And yet White Bear makes us feel for the person IN that position. What can you say? Knowing what Victoria did (and let's face it', making her an accomplice in child murder is a good move as nothing makes us angrier), did you still feeling sorry for her as she was screaming in agony at the end?
If she doesn't know who she is then what is the point of punishing her?
And they wipe her memory not change her personality.
I think that's the point.
She is effectively innocent.
But if you think about it how many people would really care as long as they got their pound of flesh?
But the problem, as others have said is the fact that the killer has no real time to dwell on what they have done or their punishment.
But the system in place in this story doesn't appear to care about rehabilitation.
I don't see that as a problem as far as the story is concerned because I think it reflects the attitudes of many people in real life. They won't care about the criminal feeling remorse as long as they get to see them punished.
As she is put into an 'innocent' state of mind after each reboot the torture is going to be as painful, and she is going to be just as fearful as the previous times.
I think that's the point.
She is effectively innocent.
But if you think about it how many people would really care as long as they got their pound of flesh?
That's right.
It's difficult to feel hate for a character you have effectively been supporting the duration of the show and have no background of. Imagine it being Myra Hindley being put through the same torture though. Millions would lap it up due to the memories of the hideous crimes she committed
Comments
Regarding Declan's question, I would say it's almost certainly a national thing with lots of different criminals. After all, we can see how successful this one is, so any smart businessman would expand it.
I also think they would alter the scenarios. Perhaps each actor would train for a slightly different story, so it wasn't always exactly the same thing every day until they got to the transmitting station, obviously. Plus they'd probably rotate the prisoners around the country to get people going back to their local "park". "Ooh look, dear. Next month they've got that bastard who strangled all those prostitutes. We've gotta see that one."
I can imagine film rights being bought for this story like they were for one of the episodes in the last series.
I found it quite distressing to watch, but very good indeed.
Quite frankly I've seen masses of films / dramas with twist endings, and I can honestly say that I've never seen a single one where the twist hasn't rendered what came before it illogical or contrived in some way or another. Sometimes it's a minor thing, and sometimes it's a major show stopper. But there's always some flaw. You can't spend 45 minutes misdirecting an audience and not have to cheat slightly somewhere; it's the nature of the game. It would be nice to think Brooker is above all that, but he isn't. I happen to think that the point he was making about our need to see "justice" meted out could've worked better without the trickery; you disagree. Fine.
Some of us are trying :rolleyes:
That's kind of how you're meant to feel. Though she wasn't actually a child murderer, she filmed it on her phone.
Hence the title of the show, Black Mirror.
(btw this is not a dig at you! Some other posters, maybe...)
We are so quick to judge in our society and the news loves to give out big stories that the whole country follows and some people are assumed guilty even before they've walked into court.
I know that most people are assuming that she took the recordings... but we don't actually know if she did it or if she was just framed.
Really makes you think where the focus of "justice" is to make the public feel better rather than to "rehabilitate" the "murderer" or even just the person viewing the murder in this case. I wonder what they would do when public interest turned into another case and there was no longer an audience to see the lead character suffer anymore.
I think that was definitely the entire point.
For the people who question the punishment aspect of it by suggesting it's not a very good punishment if she keeps forgetting each time.....I suspect that this is the whole point of the story.
In a way I think it's a very good thing that several people have said that they don't know what they just watched, but it was good. To have that effect is useful for creating a lasting impression where people can think about it again. There appeared to be several ideas being addressed in the same story.
How I saw it.....
She keeps forgetting what happened.
So effectively she's innocent of whatever she has been accused of. If you see what I mean.
I think the story is not really about the punishment and how effective it is, but about the people who are watching the punishment as entertainment to satisfy their own base urges.
It's a case of turning the tables as making the apparently guilty the innocent party, and the seemingly 'innocent' mob who just watch for their own selfish ends the 'evil'.
It's good that it didn't go into too much detail about the past crime she is supposed to be guilty of because for all we know she may well have been forced into it as the news item hinted at the possibility of.
Whatever she did or didn't do, whether she was guilty or not, as she has had her mind wiped she is for all intents and purposes innocent.
The scrutiny is placed on the mob (and ourselves) and their notion of what justice is, and whether it serves real justice or whether it just serves their own evil urges.
I think that this was the most chilling aspect to the story. That it turns the Black Mirror on ourselves.
My order (From best to worst).
1. Be Right Back
2. The Entire History of You
3. White Bear
4. 15 Million Merrits
5. The National Anthem - it was just silly!
Your tenure here dictates your right to an opinion? I'm sorry, I didn't read that in the forum rules. Your own imagined perception of the heirarchy of this forum is just as irrelevant as you think my views are. However I am trying to actually discuss the program, not insult people because I assume my tenure entitles me to anything that is not actually real or explicit in the forum rules or guidelines. Your own argument is illogical based off your own contradictory views that aren't even pertinent to the subject being discussed. Now feel free to actually respond to my opinions rather than attempt to denigrate my character, that's what we're trying to do, myself included, despite your assertions to support your own presumptive perception. Your snide comments are not constructive to the actual dialogue here.
I think in a way it shares themes with 15 Million Merits ending with him on TV every day ranting with a piece of glass at his own neck, only to sit down in relative comfort at the end of the day even if we never found out if those windows to the outside world were real or just screens. The sense of being trapped, having to earn your way out only to realise you're still caged by the constraints of the system, entertaining other people at your own expense... I do think the first and second episodes so far are also reflections of the other side of the situations depicted in the first series first two episodes as well.
I would have been interested to see them scroll through the "options" on the phone's app, that could have opened the door for some of your suggestions like "Whipsnade Rehabilitation Park: Charlie Porter, Animal and Ivory Smuggler" or something like that.
Yes, it would make the mob no less guilty than the accused.
She filmed the girl being tortured, the mob films her being tortured. It would make the collective crowd no different. Only her crime hadn't been sanctioned and validated.
She was put through the exact same torment that the murdered girl was. She had her brain wiped meaning she was confused and essentially childlike, she was put in a situation where she didn't want to be, was constantly in fear of her life and was being filmed by gleeful onlookers despite the sickening scenarios taking place.
In the end came the realisation that everyone involved was in fact committing the same crime in some way or another. The main character watched the young girl being killed for entertainment whilst the audience themselves watched a woman be mentally killed for their own entrainment.
I don't think it's about torturing a criminal for public satisfaction in a 'logical' way.
I don't think that whatever system is in place in the story has much concern about how logical or not it is. It seems to be more motivated by giving the public what they want, and I imagine profiting from it.
Also I especially liked seeing 'Tyres' on the box again ;-)
I owe you a beer or glass of white/red wine of your choice.
Also, let me be one of the first to also mention the obvious influences; The Running Man, Total Recall, The Game, Lord Of The Flies, Double Jeopardy, The Long Kiss Goodnight, Memento.
I'd like a pint of Wards but they don't do it anymore so that's another dream down the drain
Perfect in terms of what Black Mirror does though - imagine Myra Hindley or Jimmy Saville in Victoria's position. When all is said and done, how much did the public want all those evil murderers or peodophiles to suffer or still do? And yet White Bear makes us feel for the person IN that position. What can you say? Knowing what Victoria did (and let's face it', making her an accomplice in child murder is a good move as nothing makes us angrier), did you still feeling sorry for her as she was screaming in agony at the end?
I think that's the point.
She is effectively innocent.
But if you think about it how many people would really care as long as they got their pound of flesh?
But the system in place in this story doesn't appear to care about rehabilitation.
I don't see that as a problem as far as the story is concerned because I think it reflects the attitudes of many people in real life. They won't care about the criminal feeling remorse as long as they get to see them punished.
As she is put into an 'innocent' state of mind after each reboot the torture is going to be as painful, and she is going to be just as fearful as the previous times.
That's right.
It's difficult to feel hate for a character you have effectively been supporting the duration of the show and have no background of. Imagine it being Myra Hindley being put through the same torture though. Millions would lap it up due to the memories of the hideous crimes she committed