I do agree with you that it seems rather arrogant to alter past stories (however slightly). And he definitely tries to be too clever. I really miss the epicness of Dr Who as it was about 5 years ago.
And I'm happy that Doctor Who is more epic than it was 5 years ago. It's funny old world, innit?
As far as the companions go, I read the OP as meaning so Clara went into all the Doctors time streams to save him, she is the ultimate companion who saved his life. How about the other companions who risked their lives to save the Doctor? I read it as it's an insult to what they did because this story made it look as if had Clara not down what she did the Doctor would have died, well she didn't save him everytime.
As people keep pointing out (why is no one listening?) Clara did not change anything in the Doctor's life. The Great Intelligence had entered his time stream and made lots of changes to events in his past, so Clara followed him in and changed everything back again to the way they'd originally been.
Let's have a look at the first 2 stages of the change curve for an explanation to this post - Shock/Denial then Anger/Depression - sums it up perfectly!
there is also the fact that the doctor himself remembers everything he has done the original way, even if Clara operated in a 'turn left' scenario to overcome the GI, the Doctor (11), knows that Clara entered his timestream and saved him, but his memories of the previous events, the events that made him the man he is, seem to be unaffected. So nothing in the 50 years history has changed, other than the current doctor's understanding of the current companion.
As people keep pointing out (why is no one listening?) Clara did not change anything in the Doctor's life. The Great Intelligence had entered his time stream and made lots of changes to events in his past, so Clara followed him in and changed everything back again to the way they'd originally been.
Yes I understand that - but how did she do it, What makes Clara so special that she could overcome what the G.I. did ? I'm not complaining about the storyline, I would just have liked a clearer explaination
Yes I understand that - but how did she do it, What makes Clara so special that she could overcome what the G.I. did ? I'm not complaining about the storyline, I would just have liked a clearer explaination
As I saw it - Clara wasn't special. She was perfectly ordinary. But she was just there, saw what was needed to save the Doctor, and was willing to do it.
I'm sorry, I know that most of you on here loved it and I respect that I really do. But I did not... SM has tried to be so clever that in my opinion he has failed
You contradict yourself. Why would Moffat be considered to have failed because you didn't like it and the majority did?
IMO, he would have failed if you liked it and the majority didn't!
As people keep pointing out (why is no one listening?) Clara did not change anything in the Doctor's life. The Great Intelligence had entered his time stream and made lots of changes to events in his past, so Clara followed him in and changed everything back again to the way they'd originally been.
That is hardly conclusive, though. It's just wishful thinking, IMO.
We only saw fleeting glimpses of Clara's involvement in most of the timelines but in the ones we saw properly (Hartnell, Oswin, Victorian Clara) she had a very definite effect on events. It makes very little sense to me that the GI's interference would have been so easily intercepted by Clara as to have no impact at all on the timeline.
The best we can say is that we don't know what Clara's presence did in each of those timezones. I don't think we can categorically say that nothing was changed at all. Maybe the end result was the same but the method of getting there? I'm not convinced.
Yes I understand that - but how did she do it, What makes Clara so special that she could overcome what the G.I. did ? I'm not complaining about the storyline, I would just have liked a clearer explaination
We've already seen throughout season 7 just how brilliant Clara is. Her actions have saved the Doctor in almost every episode.
She is a genius-level, highly resourceful and observant girl with advanced computer skills downloaded to her brain. She also has the advantage of having been exposed to the Doctor's timeline so it's entirely possible that she can see how events are supposed to have turned out and how the GI changed them. It is this foreknowledge which allows the GI to sabotage the Doctor and it is this foreknowledge which allows Clara to sabotage the GI.
I suspect that this knowledge only manifests at the right time while the rest of her life as the echo she has no memories of her former existence at all. Which would seem to be consistent with Oswin who seemed to suddenly remember the Doctor and what she needed to do right at the end.
RTD started out pretty good with his writing and his show-running, it rapidly declined.
Although different from RTDs years, Moffat also started out pretty good.
But the quality of the writing is just not there at the moment.
Such a rapid decline is a bit strange but it may be something to do with the BBC giving the showrunner far too much power. Or maybe burning the candle at both ends, i.e. Sherlock.
Y..............I tuned in Saturday night to watch only the 2nd episode of this whole season and oh how I wish I hadn't. ..........
So not really much of a doctor who fan so does what you think matter?
I thought Saturdays episode was the best of the series and probably one of the best since doctor Who returned.
I thought Clara's presence alone in the timestream cancelled out the GI's presence and nullified the effect. Therefore the GI did nothing and Clara did nothing. Apart from the very, very, beginning.
The Doctor acted alone (as it were) without Clara anyway.
Rather like the supposed marriage between the Doctor and River.
RTD started out pretty good with his writing and his show-running, it rapidly declined.
Although different from RTDs years, Moffat also started out pretty good.
But the quality of the writing is just not there at the moment.
Such a rapid decline is a bit strange but it may be something to do with the BBC giving the showrunner far too much power. Or maybe burning the candle at both ends, i.e. Sherlock.
I disagree. In my opinion, Steven Moffat has never written an episode that hasn't been fantastic. I believe he is a great writer however his show-running credentials are what might be questioned. The episodes written by him have been full of quality and have consistently been the highlights of series 5 through 7. I think Moffat is one of Britain's best writers and the way I think about it is if Moffat was in charge of any other show that show would recieve a spike in quality writing wise. Of course this is all in my opinion :cool:
RTD started out pretty good with his writing and his show-running, it rapidly declined.
Although different from RTDs years, Moffat also started out pretty good.
But the quality of the writing is just not there at the moment.
Such a rapid decline is a bit strange but it may be something to do with the BBC giving the showrunner far too much power. Or maybe burning the candle at both ends, i.e. Sherlock.
There's no evidence that your viewpoint is a majority one. Steven Moffat's episodes nearly always receive higher AI scores than other episodes and the viewing figures remain much the same as they ever were.
I would suggest you are a jaded viewer. Nothing more. The fact you got bored of two successive eras in itself tends to indicate you have a tendency to lose interest. You'll probably be saying the same a year or so into the tenancy of the next showrunner.
I have been watching Doctor Who since November 23d 1963 as I may have somewhat annoyingly mentioned now and again in this forum , and my opinion of current Who is this
**coughs self importantly**
Moffat is brilliant writer, as was RTD before him. Series 7 has been excellent on the whole. The series finale on Saturday was one of the very best Doctor Who episodes I have ever, ever seen, in all my 50 years of being a fan.
I loved seeing all the Classic era Doctors and especially the scene with Hartnell, which I had not dreamed we would get. It was magic.
I also had no difficulty in understanding Clara's role, which was to restore the status quo after the GI had buggered it up.
(I like the new Star Trek, too. )
^^^^^^ This. I could have written this... though perhaps not as eloquently.
I thought Clara's presence alone in the timestream cancelled out the GI's presence and nullified the effect. Therefore the GI did nothing and Clara did nothing. Apart from the very, very, beginning.
You say that like the episode actually showed us this. It's just an assumption. An assumption contradicted in at least three of the Clara echoes we know about and, given there were apparently millions of echoes, it seems highly unlikely they were the only examples.
So let me get this right. Merely by turning up at the same point in the Doctor's timestream as the GI, Clara automatically counteracted whatever it was that the GI had done thus preventing whatever changes the GI had implemented from ever happening. Surely at some point the GI would have noticed the same girl turning up at the same place and point in time as himself and would have done something about it ie kill her. Or was it a case of everything happening simultaniously all across the Doctor's timestream. If that was the case then surely all the events that occurred in TNOTD would never have happened ?
Things were much simpler when all the Doctor had to do to solve a problem was to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow.
I'm still not entirely sure what the problem is to be honest. If I watch any of my DVD's of classic series will Clara suddenly appear in them, when she didn't previously? Will they be re-releasing any of the stories as super special edition versions with previously unseen Clara footage?
I'm still not entirely sure what the problem is to be honest. If I watch any of my DVD's of classic series will Clara suddenly appear in them, when she didn't previously? Will they be re-releasing any of the stories as super special edition versions with previously unseen Clara footage?
What about all the other wonderful assistants that have gone before her? What an insult to their memories.
I agree with this part. I do think an attempt is being made to portray Clara as The Most Important Companion Ever and I don't appreciate it. It turns all the other companions, both new and classic, into "second-class" companions and is in particular a thumb in the eye to the classic companions.
The reasons why I think this is because I think Clara is being portrayed as doing more than simply stopping the Great Intelligence from "reversing every victory". The GI also said that he would "poison every friendship" and "deliver pain to every breath". Every friendship would first and foremost refer to the previous companions (as well as every other friend he ever had) and if Clara did step in and stop the GI from doing all of these things then she obviously was deeply involved in the Doctor's entire life from the time he left Gallifrey (or maybe even before-for all we know Clara saved the Doctor as a child or baby as well). This would make her pretty special.
Also, I don't know if Clara is going to remember everything all the Claras experienced but if she does then that will give her knowledge and experience almost on the level of the Doctor and she would become almost his equal in that area. This would also make her extra special.
In addition, while I don't think the Clara on Gallifrey was a Gallifreyan/Time Lady (although some people apparently believe that) because that would mean she could change her species, if she does remember her time on Gallifrey (however long she was there) then that would also be an extra bond between her and the Doctor and therefore again make her pretty special (especially if she knows the Gallifreyan language as a result).
Of course, it is possible that the 50th Anniversary episode will clear up what Clara remembers and knows and maybe the situation will seem a little different then but for now I definitely see Clara as being portrayed as The Most Important Companion Ever and I really didn't like that.
I don't believe some of the replies to the OP on this thread.
An intelligent person posts his thoughts on the latest episode and because his views may be different from their own, people attack him left, right and centre.
To quote a couple of comments on here he has been called a troll and someone even questioned whether his opinion really mattered.
Shame on them.
Comments like that from fans do more harm to the reputation of DW than the OP could do in a thousand posts.
Not everyone watches every episode umpteen times and analyses every word. People who watch the odd episode have every right to enjoy their 45 minutes as much as we do.
To be honest, I disagree with 99% of what the OP has posted, but I respect that he is watching the show with different expectations and wishes than me.
Thanks to those posters who have taken the time to politely point out some of the plot points that the OP may have missed or challenge his point of view in an intelligent way.
Feel free to do the same to me if I have to write a similar post if Paul McGann is not in the 50th special.
Of course, it is possible that the 50th Anniversary episode will clear up what Clara remembers and knows and maybe the situation will seem a little different then but for now I definitely see Clara as being portrayed as The Most Important Companion Ever and I really didn't like that.
I do agree that aspect of it makes me uncomfortable, the entire series since 2005 seems to have been about 'bigger and better' whether it's the adventures or the companions' roles and I'm not too keen on that as I'm more concerned with the Doctor himself than who he happens to be travelling with this year. I do hope that when we find out what's going on Clara reverts to being 'normal' as being too much more than that could destroy the Doctor's mystery which is one of the most important things about him.
I agree with this part. I do think an attempt is being made to portray Clara as The Most Important Companion Ever and I don't appreciate it. It turns all the other companions, both new and classic, into "second-class" companions and is in particular a thumb in the eye to the classic companions.
As soon as it became clear what was going on I did have a little niggle that it could upset people that way.
The way I look at it, though. The past companions still had an important role to play in the life of the Doctor and one of Clara's jobs was to preserve that role. To ensure that the friendships weren't poisoned and that their contributions weren't sabotaged. Clara wasn't able to do this through super-powers but through the foreknowledge she had by virtue of access to the Doctor's entire timeline (including, foreknowledge of what the GI had done to try to change that timeline). Any other companion could have done the same if they had been the ones to throw themselves into the timeline and gained that foreknowledge. She's special in that way, through circumstance and so, in my view, that in no way detracts from the actions of the others.
How much she remembers afterwards could be an issue but I don't think it's possible for the human brain to remember millions of lifetimes simulataneously. At least not in any kind of reliable way. Initially upon reintegration she'd lost her sense of identity completely and couldn't even remember who she was. The leaf brought her back to her original self and we know she remembers enough to know how many Doctors she's seen and what they look like but whether she can recall specific details, and whether that memory will be retained for any length of time after she leaves the world they're trapped in, remains to be seen.
Personally, I wouldn't mind her being a bit special afterwards. I always like the special ones who are on a par with the Doctor (Romana was one of my favourite companions for that reason) but, if not, I won't be overly upset either. Normal Clara already showed she's pretty special anyway
Clara = most important companion ever? It was done before with Rose and I hated it. Clara's story I don't mind at all. Horses for courses, but don't try and kid yourself that most important companion ever is a feature introduced on Moffat's watch cos it simply isn't true. It's been happening every year since 2005.
Comments
And I'm happy that Doctor Who is more epic than it was 5 years ago. It's funny old world, innit?
Yes I understand that - but how did she do it, What makes Clara so special that she could overcome what the G.I. did ? I'm not complaining about the storyline, I would just have liked a clearer explaination
As I saw it - Clara wasn't special. She was perfectly ordinary. But she was just there, saw what was needed to save the Doctor, and was willing to do it.
You contradict yourself. Why would Moffat be considered to have failed because you didn't like it and the majority did?
IMO, he would have failed if you liked it and the majority didn't!
That is hardly conclusive, though. It's just wishful thinking, IMO.
We only saw fleeting glimpses of Clara's involvement in most of the timelines but in the ones we saw properly (Hartnell, Oswin, Victorian Clara) she had a very definite effect on events. It makes very little sense to me that the GI's interference would have been so easily intercepted by Clara as to have no impact at all on the timeline.
The best we can say is that we don't know what Clara's presence did in each of those timezones. I don't think we can categorically say that nothing was changed at all. Maybe the end result was the same but the method of getting there? I'm not convinced.
We've already seen throughout season 7 just how brilliant Clara is. Her actions have saved the Doctor in almost every episode.
She is a genius-level, highly resourceful and observant girl with advanced computer skills downloaded to her brain. She also has the advantage of having been exposed to the Doctor's timeline so it's entirely possible that she can see how events are supposed to have turned out and how the GI changed them. It is this foreknowledge which allows the GI to sabotage the Doctor and it is this foreknowledge which allows Clara to sabotage the GI.
I suspect that this knowledge only manifests at the right time while the rest of her life as the echo she has no memories of her former existence at all. Which would seem to be consistent with Oswin who seemed to suddenly remember the Doctor and what she needed to do right at the end.
Although different from RTDs years, Moffat also started out pretty good.
But the quality of the writing is just not there at the moment.
Such a rapid decline is a bit strange but it may be something to do with the BBC giving the showrunner far too much power. Or maybe burning the candle at both ends, i.e. Sherlock.
I thought Saturdays episode was the best of the series and probably one of the best since doctor Who returned.
The Doctor acted alone (as it were) without Clara anyway.
Rather like the supposed marriage between the Doctor and River.
I disagree. In my opinion, Steven Moffat has never written an episode that hasn't been fantastic. I believe he is a great writer however his show-running credentials are what might be questioned. The episodes written by him have been full of quality and have consistently been the highlights of series 5 through 7. I think Moffat is one of Britain's best writers and the way I think about it is if Moffat was in charge of any other show that show would recieve a spike in quality writing wise. Of course this is all in my opinion
There's no evidence that your viewpoint is a majority one. Steven Moffat's episodes nearly always receive higher AI scores than other episodes and the viewing figures remain much the same as they ever were.
I would suggest you are a jaded viewer. Nothing more. The fact you got bored of two successive eras in itself tends to indicate you have a tendency to lose interest. You'll probably be saying the same a year or so into the tenancy of the next showrunner.
^^^^^^ This. I could have written this... though perhaps not as eloquently.
You say that like the episode actually showed us this. It's just an assumption. An assumption contradicted in at least three of the Clara echoes we know about and, given there were apparently millions of echoes, it seems highly unlikely they were the only examples.
Things were much simpler when all the Doctor had to do to solve a problem was to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow.
Now that would be cool
I agree with this part. I do think an attempt is being made to portray Clara as The Most Important Companion Ever and I don't appreciate it. It turns all the other companions, both new and classic, into "second-class" companions and is in particular a thumb in the eye to the classic companions.
The reasons why I think this is because I think Clara is being portrayed as doing more than simply stopping the Great Intelligence from "reversing every victory". The GI also said that he would "poison every friendship" and "deliver pain to every breath". Every friendship would first and foremost refer to the previous companions (as well as every other friend he ever had) and if Clara did step in and stop the GI from doing all of these things then she obviously was deeply involved in the Doctor's entire life from the time he left Gallifrey (or maybe even before-for all we know Clara saved the Doctor as a child or baby as well). This would make her pretty special.
Also, I don't know if Clara is going to remember everything all the Claras experienced but if she does then that will give her knowledge and experience almost on the level of the Doctor and she would become almost his equal in that area. This would also make her extra special.
In addition, while I don't think the Clara on Gallifrey was a Gallifreyan/Time Lady (although some people apparently believe that) because that would mean she could change her species, if she does remember her time on Gallifrey (however long she was there) then that would also be an extra bond between her and the Doctor and therefore again make her pretty special (especially if she knows the Gallifreyan language as a result).
Of course, it is possible that the 50th Anniversary episode will clear up what Clara remembers and knows and maybe the situation will seem a little different then but for now I definitely see Clara as being portrayed as The Most Important Companion Ever and I really didn't like that.
An intelligent person posts his thoughts on the latest episode and because his views may be different from their own, people attack him left, right and centre.
To quote a couple of comments on here he has been called a troll and someone even questioned whether his opinion really mattered.
Shame on them.
Comments like that from fans do more harm to the reputation of DW than the OP could do in a thousand posts.
Not everyone watches every episode umpteen times and analyses every word. People who watch the odd episode have every right to enjoy their 45 minutes as much as we do.
To be honest, I disagree with 99% of what the OP has posted, but I respect that he is watching the show with different expectations and wishes than me.
Thanks to those posters who have taken the time to politely point out some of the plot points that the OP may have missed or challenge his point of view in an intelligent way.
Feel free to do the same to me if I have to write a similar post if Paul McGann is not in the 50th special.
I do agree that aspect of it makes me uncomfortable, the entire series since 2005 seems to have been about 'bigger and better' whether it's the adventures or the companions' roles and I'm not too keen on that as I'm more concerned with the Doctor himself than who he happens to be travelling with this year. I do hope that when we find out what's going on Clara reverts to being 'normal' as being too much more than that could destroy the Doctor's mystery which is one of the most important things about him.
As soon as it became clear what was going on I did have a little niggle that it could upset people that way.
The way I look at it, though. The past companions still had an important role to play in the life of the Doctor and one of Clara's jobs was to preserve that role. To ensure that the friendships weren't poisoned and that their contributions weren't sabotaged. Clara wasn't able to do this through super-powers but through the foreknowledge she had by virtue of access to the Doctor's entire timeline (including, foreknowledge of what the GI had done to try to change that timeline). Any other companion could have done the same if they had been the ones to throw themselves into the timeline and gained that foreknowledge. She's special in that way, through circumstance and so, in my view, that in no way detracts from the actions of the others.
How much she remembers afterwards could be an issue but I don't think it's possible for the human brain to remember millions of lifetimes simulataneously. At least not in any kind of reliable way. Initially upon reintegration she'd lost her sense of identity completely and couldn't even remember who she was. The leaf brought her back to her original self and we know she remembers enough to know how many Doctors she's seen and what they look like but whether she can recall specific details, and whether that memory will be retained for any length of time after she leaves the world they're trapped in, remains to be seen.
Personally, I wouldn't mind her being a bit special afterwards. I always like the special ones who are on a par with the Doctor (Romana was one of my favourite companions for that reason) but, if not, I won't be overly upset either. Normal Clara already showed she's pretty special anyway