Is school a complete waste of time

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  • HypnodiscHypnodisc Posts: 22,728
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    Anachrony wrote: »
    You agreed with the algebra bit then? That's an incredibly practical thing, and university is too late to start learning, since it's a basic foundation for many years of subsequent material.

    I don't think even the OP agrees with his own post, since he appears to just be trolling.

    In what way is algebra practical? Can you give me an example where it might be useful in a domestic situation? In a workplace like an office?

    I must admit I was never fond of maths in school, did very badly at it at GCSE level and it's never really been a problem. I've had many different types of jobs and now run my own business. Ironically the most important thing I think which is missing - financial education - is something which seems to be largely ignored.

    I agree the OP was trolling, but in my opinion, there's a valid discussion to be had on the merits of various subjects and their constituent components.
  • 007Fusion007Fusion Posts: 3,657
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    As long as an individual can read, write and has competent mathematical skills - I think you're set for life. Beyond that, what they teach you at school (a part from socialization) isn't of an real benefit or relevance. (Unless, of course you know exactly what you are going to do in life).

    Truth is, the Government doesn't want children to be work-ready at 16, because the economy can't handle it. That's why they want people going to University (an effective holding place, until the economy shifts a bit).
  • Cornish_PiskieCornish_Piskie Posts: 7,489
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    Essex_Boy wrote: »
    Like WTF we're made to stay up all night shitting ourselves about Shakespeare, algebra, chemicals etc and made to think that when were tested on it our life depends on it

    Like wtff this is all stuff I couldn't care less about none of t is going to benefit me in the future....
    When am I going to need to know the formula of x y and z or however it goes
    Y don't school teach us stuff that's actually useful like social skills, getting girls and partying cos that's stuff that'll actually benefit us in life??


    Oh my goodness. I'm afraid you get an 'F' for that post. Must try harder.

    School is as much about personal development as academic learning. You learn not only factual knowledge by rote, but the skills to reason things out for yourself in the future.

    You learn how not only how to absorb facts and recall them when required, but how to think for yourself so you can achieve your full potential in the future.

    Academic studies such as Maths and English are important for employment purposes, but languages, history, drama, etc make up the whole rounded person. You would learn how to converse with people who don't speak English. You will have a knowledge of how your country and your people developed. You will have an understanding of the finer aspirations of humanity. They're not a waste of time.

    You can still party. I spent three years at university and the rule there was "Work hard, play hard." You can learn and party because you are young and you have that energy. You should do both now, because you are only young once and I can assure you that twenty years from now, if you don't do both, you'll regret it.

    Now, get off of here and get back to your books. Tempus fugit (look it up).
  • AnachronyAnachrony Posts: 2,757
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    Hypnodisc wrote: »
    Can you give me an example where it might be useful in a domestic situation? In a workplace like an office?

    STEM majors work in offices too. White collar work isn't all chatting on the phone and sending email. I use complex math nearly every day in my office, and the abstract reasoning and problem solving that goes along with a math education is used continuously throughout the day. You can't even get in to a decent university to study a STEM major without calculus as a basic pre-requisite, and that follows years of algebra. These are important jobs that modern society needs to function, and absolutely nobody will be equipped to perform them if they were to only just start learning basic math in university.

    Like reading, you need to learn math early and keep it up for a long time to become fully proficient. Reading and math are different from most other subjects, because they are the foundation that almost every other academic subject builds on, and you can't pick them up quickly. If you haven't learned them throughout your academic career, you'll probably never catch up in time to master a subject that builds on them. If you don't teach kids math, you're cutting short their ability to even consider a huge array of important jobs.
    Hypnodisc wrote: »
    Ironically the most important thing I think which is missing - financial education - is something which seems to be largely ignored.

    How can you learn finance without even basic math for pre-adolescents?

    Since you seem to think finance education is lacking, here's a simple domestic algebra question. If you were considering taking out a variable rate mortgage with a balance of X over a term of Y years, and your available monthly budget for the payment is no more than Z, how high would the interest rate have to go to exceed that budget?
    Hypnodisc wrote: »
    I've had many different types of jobs and now run my own business.

    Not being able to hold down the same job for long is not great proof that you were well equipped for a career. Sorry to be rude, but it's an odd argument, and you're the second person this week to make this exact point.

    I'm sure there are jobs you can do without math. There are also jobs you can do without reading. There are jobs you can do if you never went to school and just started working as a child. That doesn't prove that an education is worthless. There are many important jobs that you can't do without an advanced education, and society would be in a terrible state without a highly educated workforce.
  • muggins14muggins14 Posts: 61,844
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    Maths and English are the backbone of most of our life I would say, in general terms. Every day there are things I do in ordinary life that rely upon a knowledge of both.

    From working out rug/carpet sizes to petrol/mileage, food shopping to medication amounts, doing crosswords, budgeting income/expenditure, taxes, clothing size/measurements, understanding bills, the ability to work things out logically, the ability to communicate and make yourself understood ... obviously I'm just listing things I can think of first thing in the morning as a Mum who realises how much of everyday life requires even a rudimentary knowledge of maths and English.

    Many more aspects of life in general require not just maths or English but the skills you learn from a knowledge of these two subjects, including - OP - how to make a post look less like Joey Essex wrote it ;) Although, talking of Joey Essex, don't several of the people on TOWIE run their own businesses? - I bet they would explain to you how important maths is in their daily lives!

    Think about it, we couldn't post here without many people out there (and, of course, myself) through many years having acquired more than a rudimentary knowledge of maths and English. This computer or your phone wouldn't exist without people who learned their maths and English, nor would the many things we use and do throughout the course of a day.

    A good read around the Arithmetic thread http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2060382 serves as a good reminder as to how much maths is such an intrinsic part of life, even to somebody like me who took 2 attempts to pass an O Level :D

    I'm sure others will explain more intricately how important maths is, I'm just talking in general terms as a 52-year-old mum who has the sense to realise how important, essential, a knowledge it is to have even in it's most basic form. I shouldn't need to even go into why English (including reading, which is a wonderful way to learn the language, it's structure, etc) is essential!
  • Watcher #1Watcher #1 Posts: 9,017
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    Hypnodisc wrote: »
    In what way is algebra practical? Can you give me an example where it might be useful in a domestic situation? In a workplace like an office?

    I must admit I was never fond of maths in school, did very badly at it at GCSE level and it's never really been a problem. I've had many different types of jobs and now run my own business. Ironically the most important thing I think which is missing - financial education - is something which seems to be largely ignored.

    I agree the OP was trolling, but in my opinion, there's a valid discussion to be had on the merits of various subjects and their constituent components.

    Most people use algebra without realising they are using it. Instead of thinking in terms of x and y, we simply use real things like pints, ten pound notes or packs of flooring
  • alan29alan29 Posts: 34,612
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    Its free child care for parents.
    Thats pretty useful.
  • deans6571deans6571 Posts: 6,137
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    I don't think its a waste of time as you learn all sorts of stuff at school that you will use in the 'real world'.

    When I was at school, my parents always used to say that 'school is the best time of your life'. I, obviously didn't agree with them at the time (thought they were mad!!! :confused: ) but looking back now - they were totally right ;-)

    One thing however which I DO think is a waste of time is the constant pointless homeworks, that schools dish out. My kids are constantly bringing 'make an instrument' or 'design a shoe/boot/trainer' or 'invent this or that and only use paper' type homeworks?!?! WHY...?!?!!!!!!! *headspinningsmiley*
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 68,508
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    Sky_Guy wrote: »
    As a child everything was free, I had no responsibility, all my family were alive, the world was a nice and caring place, my whole life was a ahead of me with endless possibilities, everything was innocent. It was a care free life.

    You can have none of that as an adult, not really, sooner or later shit will occur.
    I'm with JCT Jennings (from the Jennings and Darbyshire books). At their school Speech Day, the speakers says, "Remember boys, that your schooldays are the best days of your life!"
    Jennings thinks about this and decides that actually schooldays are the second best days of your life. The best days are when you are not at school.
    Hypnodisc wrote: »
    I agree the OP was trolling, but in my opinion, there's a valid discussion to be had on the merits of various subjects and their constituent components.

    Schools have to give as many people as possible as much choice as possible. It is all very well for children/ young teenagers to say that they hate maths and can already count, so what is the point? But if they are allowed to give up maths at that stage, they are closing quite a few doors for their future. I just wouldn't trust a 14 year old who said they knew they would never want to do anything that involved any knowledge of algebra (which is quite a core skill); it's not like giving up Latin. You DON'T know, even if you are sure your future is in ballet, or beauty treatments, or as a glamour model. Adult life is long, with luck, and people are often very glad to realize that they have maths/ science/ English literature GCSE's from way back when, however pointless they found them at the time.

    I re-trained for a career in my 30's, and was very glad to have certain long-forgotten parts of my school education coming back to me. Maths, in particular, is hard to acquire later in life, as are foreign languages.
  • Toby LaRhoneToby LaRhone Posts: 12,916
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    Watcher #1 wrote: »
    we simply use real things like pints, ten pound notes or packs of flooring
    Surreal.
    You forgot the fish.
  • WinterFireWinterFire Posts: 9,509
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    Maths is something that you may not miss too much if you don't have it, but that's because you don't realise how it would help you. The classic case is someone who will struggle to come up with a seat of the pants solution to a problem, often by trial and error. That if they wrote down the problem in formal (e.g. maths) form, they would solve quickly and accurately. I.e. people can get by without the maths, but don't realise how much of a better job they could do if they had maths.

    If a population of some creature increases by 5% a year cumulative, from a starting population of 300 individuals, then how many individuals will there be after 20 years. OK, that's a maths problem that looks unrelated to people's lives. Why would we learn it? Change the problem to a structurally identical one concerning a loan and interest, then suddenly it's much more relevant to people.

    In a domestic situation, maths could be used in working out the consequences of different purchasing strategies for (e.g.) food. Maths can be used to compare the rather complicated mobile phone plans or energy plans that exist, to work out the overall cost given expected usage of the services.

    In an office situation, maths might be used to work out the expected time that some task might take, constructing a formula to predict time taken based on the structure of a task. Other people might just make a vague guess based on gut feeling. Both produce an estimate of time, but the examined version

    It's said that part of what caused the financial collapse was that the general public didn't understand how exponentials work. The same cause can make people more likely to fall victim to (e.g.) Ponzi scams, because they don't realise (and can't calculate) how quickly the number of people in each level of a scam increases, and how soon it reaches implausible or impossible numbers.

    What if someone is trying to make a decision about which mode of transport is safest for a particular journey. The stats are out there, but it requires some simple maths to calculate the probability of (e.g.) death. OK, people who can't calculate that probability can still choose a mode of transport, but are they making the right choice if their aim is to remain alive?

    It's also said that what leads many people to choose ineffective 'alternative medicine' over more effective conventional medicine is that they don't understand how science works. Part of this 'science' that they don't understand is statistics, which is part of maths. Lacking this background people are unable to distinguish between reliable evidence and BS. This can affect everyone, because they are unable to make as informed choices in their lives as they would be if they knew more maths. This is a question of being able to interpret information. More education = more information can be interpreted, and more accurately.

    Finally, a lot of what is taught at school is not important because of the knowledge gained, but because people are learning how to learn. If you learn, and master, difficult concepts at school, then this makes you more able to learn other difficult concepts later on by yourself. Partially because of the mental exercise and sophistication. Partially because basics such as algebra may be used in describing, teaching, and working in a complex field. OK, some people may not want to work in a complex field, but because they limit themselves doesn't mean that we should rewrite education so that everybody is.
  • chris1978chris1978 Posts: 1,931
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    I don't think everyone is suited to school. I left at 16 (I don't think you can now), and went to work because I hated it. Did A levels at night. I'm lucky to be in a well paid job but I don't believe that any of this was due to the school.

    In my opinion schools should teach a lot of stuff about common sense to get through life. Household financial management, mortgages, healthy eating, how government works etc. The problem with schools is they are obsessed with feeding info to be regurgitated in tests that go towards league tables and they don't make learning interesting.
  • Steve_CardanasSteve_Cardanas Posts: 4,188
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    Essex_Boy wrote: »
    Like WTF we're made to stay up all night shitting ourselves about Shakespeare, algebra, chemicals etc and made to think that when were tested on it our life depends on it

    Like wtff this is all stuff I couldn't care less about none of t is going to benefit me in the future....
    When am I going to need to know the formula of x y and z or however it goes
    Y don't school teach us stuff that's actually useful like social skills, getting girls and partying cos that's stuff that'll actually benefit us in life??

    some school lessons are total waste of time, R.E,

    i was luckly at my school as we don't do any of the following
    Shakespeare, algebra, chemicals, history,
  • computermastercomputermaster Posts: 4,016
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    A little bit, yeah. I think some kids just don't want, or don't need to be there and it's eventually going to do them more damage than good (i'm not just talking about troublemakers or special needs kids either).

    Maybe scrap primary school altogether and make secondary a 2/3 day a week thing for a couple of hours.
  • himerushimerus Posts: 3,040
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    Essex_Boy wrote: »
    Like WTF we're made to stay up all night shitting ourselves about Shakespeare, algebra, chemicals etc and made to think that when were tested on it our life depends on it

    Like wtff this is all stuff I couldn't care less about none of t is going to benefit me in the future....
    When am I going to need to know the formula of x y and z or however it goes
    Y don't school teach us stuff that's actually useful like social skills, getting girls and partying cos that's stuff that'll actually benefit us in life??

    Whilst I have some sympathy with your views you never know what may benefit you in later life.
  • Watcher #1Watcher #1 Posts: 9,017
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    Surreal.
    You forgot the fish.

    Only if I was buying fish
  • zx50zx50 Posts: 91,227
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    Essex_Boy wrote: »
    Like WTF we're made to stay up all night shitting ourselves about Shakespeare, algebra, chemicals etc and made to think that when were tested on it our life depends on it

    Like wtff this is all stuff I couldn't care less about none of t is going to benefit me in the future....
    When am I going to need to know the formula of x y and z or however it goes
    Y don't school teach us stuff that's actually useful like social skills, getting girls and partying cos that's stuff that'll actually benefit us in life??

    Do well in school in a subject that you're really drawn to and you could end up doing very well for yourself financially after you leave.
  • shackfanshackfan Posts: 15,461
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    Essex_Boy wrote: »
    Y don't school teach us stuff that's actually useful like social skills, getting girls and partying cos that's stuff that'll actually benefit us in life??

    Yeah, becos wen u appli 4 a job that stuff will rilly help, unlike spelling, sums and shite.

    Please can we have rolleyes back for threads like this.
  • ChocolateCheeseChocolateCheese Posts: 3,537
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    Will_Bee wrote: »
    Like wtf you want to end up on the dole or a shitty payed job?

    Just do a few years studying and you can be a doctor or a lawyer or a scientist.

    Then you can have a fulfilling next 60 years of your life with a good income nice house and lifestyle.

    Just a few years of learning all that stuff can make a difference.
    The "shitty payed job" seems to be the lesser of the two evils.
  • DinkyDooDinkyDoo Posts: 3,588
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    No its not, but some of the things kids are being told is total rubbish. During a 1 to 1 meeting my daughter was told that without a grade c in maths and english you cant get even the lowest paid job. My daughter is now terrified that if she dont achieve a minimum c grade shes never going to get a job. The pressure they are put under is immense.
  • muggins14muggins14 Posts: 61,844
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    some school lessons are total waste of time, R.E,

    i was luckly at my school as we don't do any of the following
    Shakespeare, algebra, chemicals, history,
    Even reading Shakespeare isn't really about just reading Shakespeare for the story though, is it. I went to a school where we were streamed, I was in the second stream so instead of the classics we read books like My Family and Other Animals and various poetry books. Whether it was Shakespeare, Gerald Durrell or somebody else, reading isn't just about the content of the book, nor it is just about learning to read - although that's an extremely important part of life.

    It was about learning to construct sentences, about thought processes, the language we use and how we use it, how to discuss what we had read and learned, reasoned debate, formulating and vocalising opinion, grammar - it's not always about the content but also about what it teaches us, including aspects of human behaviour in all it's variety.

    I've not read Julius Caesar, but I know enough about it to know that reading it could lead to discussions on politics, morality, loyalty, betrayal - so much more than just a story - as could a book like Animal Farm. It isn't just about reading a book for the story or improving your reading skills, it's about so much more.
  • TheTruth1983TheTruth1983 Posts: 13,462
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    Sky_Guy wrote: »
    Do you have your parents permission to use this forum boy?

    Seriously school is the best time of your life, once you enter the real world you will learn this.

    Whoever first said that must not have lived past 21.

    I hated my school days.
  • SoundboxSoundbox Posts: 6,241
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    At the back of the classroom you would have found me, uncomprehending and misplaced. As I gazed over the playing field I saw land gulls squawking and calling before flying off to places unknown. Beyond the sports ground was the row of poplars whose high tips would move softy to breezes not felt on the ground. Beyond that was the pavement where people pulled trolleys or walked in pairs - enviably not in school. The sounds of the teacher moving on with algebra or some other obtuse formula droned on, somehow removed from reality. Allowing my gaze to drift from the pedestrians, back to the trees and the muddy goal areas I looked at the window frame. Someone in the far past had picked out the putty and it had been replaced with new - but never painted. My desk had fossilised gum stuck underneath - almost as hard as the wood. Who stuck it there? Where are they now? Many baking hot summer breaks of empty classrooms and chalky silence had passed since the day it had outlived its usefulness.
    As the ringing of the bell and shuffle of feet marked the end of another lesson passed I would be obliged to follow the shuffle of 'my class' to another room, another view, another hour. I really did not think much of school - it just felt like somewhere I did not belong.
  • TheSilentFezTheSilentFez Posts: 11,103
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    chris1978 wrote: »
    In my opinion schools should teach a lot of stuff about common sense to get through life. Household financial management, mortgages, healthy eating, how government works etc. The problem with schools is they are obsessed with feeding info to be regurgitated in tests that go towards league tables and they don't make learning interesting.

    How can you teach common sense?
  • AsarualimAsarualim Posts: 3,884
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    Hypnodisc wrote: »
    In what way is algebra practical? Can you give me an example where it might be useful in a domestic situation? In a workplace like an office?

    If you use MS Excel and have to create a formula for anything, that is using algebra. That's more a work example that may not apply to everyone, but a domestic application is in cooking. You follow a recipe that is for four people, but you're only cooking it for 2, so you can use algebra to work out the amount of ingredients you need to use. Ultimately, algebra is about solving problems, which is most definitely useful in life.
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