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Liverpool Supporters Thread (Part 19)

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    seelleeseellee Posts: 10,725
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    Par6 wrote: »
    Actually I think that last nights result may work to Liverpools advantage. Had they have won, City would have known that they had to WIN their last two games to win the title, now city know that a draw and a win in the last two games is enough and that's VERY dangerous for a team full of overpaid mercenaries who are just doing a job and have no real passion for the club, complacency and city go hand in hand and they have a history of not turning up for big games.
    Liverpools advantage over all the other clubs is that they have a player in Gerrard, who has real passion and love for the team he plays for and that passion and desire seeps through to the other players. Utd had it when scholes, Neville and giggs were playing but now that era has gone so has the passion and as city and Chelsea have found, you can't buy passion.
    On another point, I frequent a few soccer forums and have been shocked that so many fans of other clubs don't want Liverpool to win the title ? Why?
    The general consensus seems to be that, yes Liverpool have played the best football this season but please don't let them win because of heysel/Hillsborough/Suarez/scouse lariness ? The posts of "anyone but liverpool" have surprised me, of course no one wanted utd to win titles but that was out of envy of theirsuccess, fergusons attitude and the arrogance of their fans, but the hatred of Liverpool seems to run deeper and wider across more clubs than I thought, surprised me.

    I'm glad people hate us. Shows fear and success. Do you think had United been meandering to 7th for the last 20 years we would have as strong and fierce rivalry we have now? Don't think so. If people hate us it means we are doing well.
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    Pete McIntoshPete McIntosh Posts: 25
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    seellee wrote: »
    I'm definitely on board with this more goals theory instead of blaming our defending. Blaming our defence is the easy thing to do. Did we lose or draw games this season because our defence was poor or because we didn't score enough goals? Look at our goal difference, 5-0 up against Arsenal should have been 7 or 8, 4-0 against Everton should have been 7 or 8, 5-0 against spurs should have been 7 or 8, 3-0 vs United should have been 7 or 8. Against villa failed to score in 35 minutes of football when back on top. Missed chances against West Brom. Probably should have been 6-0 last night before Palace got their goal.

    I think over the summer we definitely need to work on putting teams away when on top and I think the players will learn to be less honest and just take people down when they get anywhere near goal.

    I'm sorry mate, you've got this all wrong. You didn't fail to win last night because you 'only' scored 3 goals - you failed to win last night because you conceded 3 in the last 11 minutes to a side that had only scored 28 all season. It was entirely down to defensive lapses, poor organisation and a lack of leadership. You talk about these games where you should have scored 7 or 8. That just doesn't happen in the Premier League other than the occasional freak result (only once this season when City put 7 past Norwich). If you're relying on scoring 7 or 8 goals a game to secure a title you are, to put it bluntly, away with the fairies. You have scored enough goals to win many games comfortably, that ended up being anything but (Norwich 3-2, Swansea 4-3 etc).

    Tightening up at the back, being more tactically astute, and as Brendan often puts it ' managing the game' better doesn't mean a more defensive approach - it just means a smarter approach. Look at Bayern in the (admittedly weaker) German league - loads of goals scored without compromising at the other end.

    Last night, Liverpool completely lost their shape. The 4-3-3 worked well going forward and when in possession, but without the ball it didn't. What Jose did last week was what Liverpool should have done in the last 10 minutes last night - wide men back as full backs, full backs going narrow alongside centre backs. The second and third Palace goals came from gaping holes in the centre of the defence.

    I appreciate he has been an incredible player and a loyal servant, and for sentimental reasons many outside LFC would love to see Stevie G win the title, but last night, as a leader he fell desperately short of what was needed. Whilst Suarez was a worthy winner of the Football Writers Award yesterday, I remain astonished that Gerrard was placed above Yaya Toure - sentiment on behalf of the writers can be the only explanation.
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    seelleeseellee Posts: 10,725
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    misawa97 wrote: »
    easy to blame the defence but you defend as a team and as Rodgers said its all about Game management.

    We have enough defenders so if people want to see new ones then people will need to be sold and who would that be?

    Remember we still Tiago Ilori to come back from his loan spell in Spain so thats another defender.



    Agree with that. I'm really disappointed but not tearing into anyone. This season has been one of the best I can remember. The players have done great and a bad result @ Selhurst doesnt change that.

    Yeah it's not the defence or defenders we have. We just need to make a few better decisions as a team. We were very patient, controlled the game got to 3-0 and did the right thing in going for more. What we didn't do well with 15 left is make good decisions in certain areas of the field. Like you say very easy to blame the defence.

    Under previous managers we've concentrated on defence and got nowhere near where we are now.
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    Eye ItchEye Itch Posts: 671
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    seellee wrote: »
    I'm definitely on board with this more goals theory instead of blaming our defending. Blaming our defence is the easy thing to do. Did we lose or draw games this season because our defence was poor or because we didn't score enough goals? Look at our goal difference, 5-0 up against Arsenal should have been 7 or 8, 4-0 against Everton should have been 7 or 8, 5-0 against spurs should have been 7 or 8, 3-0 vs United should have been 7 or 8. Against villa failed to score in 35 minutes of football when back on top. Missed chances against West Brom. Probably should have been 6-0 last night before Palace got their goal.

    I think over the summer we definitely need to work on putting teams away when on top and I think the players will learn to be less honest and just take people down when they get anywhere near goal.

    How should any of them have been 7 or 8, when none of them actually were?
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    seelleeseellee Posts: 10,725
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    I'm sorry mate, you've got this all wrong. You didn't fail to win last night because you 'only' scored 3 goals - you failed to win last night because you conceded 3 in the last 11 minutes to a side that had only scored 28 all season. It was entirely down to defensive lapses, poor organisation and a lack of leadership. You talk about these games where you should have scored 7 or 8. That just doesn't happen in the Premier League other than the occasional freak result (only once this season when City put 7 past Norwich). If you're relying on scoring 7 or 8 goals a game to secure a title you are, to put it bluntly, away with the fairies. You have scored enough goals to win many games comfortably, that ended up being anything but (Norwich 3-2, Swansea 4-3 etc).

    Tightening up at the back, being more tactically astute, and as Brendan often puts it ' managing the game' better doesn't mean a more defensive approach - it just means a smarter approach. Look at Bayern in the (admittedly weaker) German league - loads of goals scored without compromising at the other end.

    Last night, Liverpool completely lost their shape. The 4-3-3 worked well going forward and when in possession, but without the ball it didn't. What Jose did last week was what Liverpool should have done in the last 10 minutes last night - wide men back as full backs, full backs going narrow alongside centre backs. The second and third Palace goals came from gaping holes in the centre of the defence.

    I appreciate he has been an incredible player and a loyal servant, and for sentimental reasons many outside LFC would love to see Stevie G win the title, but last night, as a leader he fell desperately short of what was needed. Whilst Suarez was a worthy winner of the Football Writers Award yesterday, I remain astonished that Gerrard was placed above Yaya Toure - sentiment on behalf of the writers can be the only explanation.

    So we get to 4-0 last night with ten to go, are Palace coming back?
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    seelleeseellee Posts: 10,725
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    Eye Itch wrote: »
    How should any of them have been 7 or 8, when none of them actually were?

    Because we've battered all those team and they SHOULD have been more. SHOULD is the operative word there.

    Anyway who the hell do you support? I've always wondered.
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    Eye ItchEye Itch Posts: 671
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    Par6 wrote: »
    On another point, I frequent a few soccer forums and have been shocked that so many fans of other clubs don't want Liverpool to win the title ? Why?
    The general consensus seems to be that, yes Liverpool have played the best football this season but please don't let them win because of heysel/Hillsborough/Suarez/scouse lariness ? The posts of "anyone but liverpool" have surprised me, of course no one wanted utd to win titles but that was out of envy of theirsuccess, fergusons attitude and the arrogance of their fans, but the hatred of Liverpool seems to run deeper and wider across more clubs than I thought, surprised me.

    The arrogance from some supporters may have had something to do with it.
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    Pete McIntoshPete McIntosh Posts: 25
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    seellee wrote: »
    So we get to 4-0 last night with ten to go, are Palace coming back?

    Probably not, but you didn't score 4 - they scored 3 instead. Top sides shouldn't need 4 goals to secure 3 points - especially when they're 3-0 up with 10 minutes to go against a side that have hardly been prolific.
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    seelleeseellee Posts: 10,725
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    Probably not, but you didn't score 4 - they scored 3 instead. Top sides shouldn't need 4 goals to secure 3 points - especially when they're 3-0 up with 10 minutes to go against a side that have hardly been prolific.

    Ah but what you are saying is if we had have scored the 4th Palace don't come back?

    So was it a result of not getting another goal or not defending well enough?

    See mate you say tomato I say tomayto! :D

    We are a top side by the way. Top of the league in fact.
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    promo-onlypromo-only Posts: 3,315
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    It feels no better today. Still gutted!

    But in jest, I read something from a blue mate of mine who was lapping it up last night... He labelled it 'Crystanbul'. If you don't laugh you'll only cry!
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    Joey_JJoey_J Posts: 5,146
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    seellee wrote: »
    Ah but what you are saying is if we had have scored the 4th Palace don't come back?

    So was it a result of not getting another goal or not defending well enough?

    See mate you say tomato I say tomayto! :D

    We are a top side by the way. Top of the league in fact.[/QUOTE]

    Indeed that we are

    And "With hope in our Hearts" we may still have some luck left in this title race :)
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    Draca_NoirDraca_Noir Posts: 1,348
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    I'm sorry mate, you've got this all wrong. You didn't fail to win last night because you 'only' scored 3 goals - you failed to win last night because you conceded 3 in the last 11 minutes to a side that had only scored 28 all season. It was entirely down to defensive lapses, poor organisation and a lack of leadership. You talk about these games where you should have scored 7 or 8. That just doesn't happen in the Premier League other than the occasional freak result (only once this season when City put 7 past Norwich). If you're relying on scoring 7 or 8 goals a game to secure a title you are, to put it bluntly, away with the fairies. You have scored enough goals to win many games comfortably, that ended up being anything but (Norwich 3-2, Swansea 4-3 etc).

    Tightening up at the back, being more tactically astute, and as Brendan often puts it ' managing the game' better doesn't mean a more defensive approach - it just means a smarter approach. Look at Bayern in the (admittedly weaker) German league - loads of goals scored without compromising at the other end.

    Last night, Liverpool completely lost their shape. The 4-3-3 worked well going forward and when in possession, but without the ball it didn't. What Jose did last week was what Liverpool should have done in the last 10 minutes last night - wide men back as full backs, full backs going narrow alongside centre backs. The second and third Palace goals came from gaping holes in the centre of the defence.

    I appreciate he has been an incredible player and a loyal servant, and for sentimental reasons many outside LFC would love to see Stevie G win the title, but last night, as a leader he fell desperately short of what was needed. Whilst Suarez was a worthy winner of the Football Writers Award yesterday, I remain astonished that Gerrard was placed above Yaya Toure - sentiment on behalf of the writers can be the only explanation.

    I agree with what you're saying but I honestly see last night's game as an anomaly because we were chasing goals at 3-0, if it had been earlier on in the season we wouldn't have done it, we have successfully defended 3-0 leads throughout the season. Yes Rodgers was naive in not going all defensive once they made it 3-1 but hopefully he will learn from it.
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    Pete McIntoshPete McIntosh Posts: 25
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    seellee wrote: »
    Ah but what you are saying is if we had have scored the 4th Palace don't come back?

    So was it a result of not getting another goal or not defending well enough?

    See mate you say tomato I say tomayto! :D

    We are a top side by the way. Top of the league in fact.

    Yes, but you're dealing with the hypothetical, I'm dealing with reality. Your view is based around what MIGHT have happened IF Liverpool had scored a 4th. My view is a reaction to the reality that Palace DID score 3. Conceding 3 to Palace in the last 10 minutes meant you dropped 2 points by not defending well enough - end of. You should not under any circumstances have NEEDED a 4th goal to win the game, and any team that does so in that position is a team with glaring weaknesses.

    Why is Goal Difference used to separate teams level on points? It's a recognition that football is a game based on attack AND defence. If City were still to take the title on Goal Difference, they will do it by having a better defence, not by having a more prolific attack.

    It seems to me you want a team that resembles a pink Nissan Micra - powered by fairydust!!
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    seelleeseellee Posts: 10,725
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    It's clear people are basing our season on our last two results and actually haven't bothered watching us. Nobody was moaning about our defence when we spunked 11 on the trot. In fact people were praising our style of football.
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    seelleeseellee Posts: 10,725
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    Yes, but you're dealing with the hypothetical, I'm dealing with reality. Your view is based around what MIGHT have happened IF Liverpool had scored a 4th. My view is a reaction to the reality that Palace DID score 3. Conceding 3 to Palace in the last 10 minutes meant you dropped 2 points by not defending well enough - end of. You should not under any circumstances have NEEDED a 4th goal to win the game, and any team that does so in that position is a team with glaring weaknesses.

    Why is Goal Difference used to separate teams level on points? It's a recognition that football is a game based on attack AND defence. If City were still to take the title on Goal Difference, they will do it by having a better defence, not by having a more prolific attack.

    It seems to me you want a team that resembles a pink Nissan Micra - powered by fairydust!!

    Well 81 points and top of the league isn't bad for a team with glaring weaknesses is it?

    Oh and by the way in football we all deal with the hypothetical, very little fact is discussed on these forums.
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    Pete McIntoshPete McIntosh Posts: 25
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    Draca_Noir wrote: »
    I agree with what you're saying but I honestly see last night's game as an anomaly because we were chasing goals at 3-0, if it had been earlier on in the season we wouldn't have done it, we have successfully defended 3-0 leads throughout the season. Yes Rodgers was naive in not going all defensive once they made it 3-1 but hopefully he will learn from it.

    I agree to an extent - the second goal that came from your own corner was probably as a result of committing too many bodies forward, but after that, your back four got deeper and deeper, Gerrard and Lucas just sat in front, and you invited the pressure Palace put you under. The equaliser was not down to you chasing more goals, it was down to poor positioning (Sakho), poor covering (Johnson), and alack of leadership - everytime that ball was cleared your back 4 should have been sprinting away from the 18 yard line, rather than sitting and waiting for the next ball into the box.
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    misawa97misawa97 Posts: 11,579
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    Draca_Noir wrote: »
    I agree with what you're saying but I honestly see last night's game as an anomaly because we were chasing goals at 3-0, if it had been earlier on in the season we wouldn't have done it, we have successfully defended 3-0 leads throughout the season. Yes Rodgers was naive in not going all defensive once they made it 3-1 but hopefully he will learn from it.

    At 3-0 I dont think anybody would of said to go more defensive. It looked like we were on for a 4 or 5-0 which would of put us in a great position. The first goal caused a problem as the team then in a way got stuck wondering whether to go for another of retreat. Funnily enough we nearly scored straight away through coutinho.

    One player which I havent been impressed with since his return is Lucas. His nowhere near as mobile as Henderson & Allen are.
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    seelleeseellee Posts: 10,725
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    misawa97 wrote: »
    At 3-0 I dont think anybody would of said to go more defensive. It looked like we were on for a 4 or 5-0 which would of put us in a great position. The first goal caused a problem as the team then in a way got stuck wondering whether to go for another of retreat. Funnily enough we nearly scored straight away through coutinho.

    One player which I havent been impressed with since his return is Lucas. His nowhere near as mobile as Henderson & Allen are.

    Yes agree about Lucas. His best position is where Gerrard plays.

    People are saying a slip or bad defending cost us but actually I'm starting to wonder if Jordan's red card is the real thing that's cost us. If anything that's what other fans should be laughing at.

    You are also right about hindsight. Not one person thought "ooh let's shut up shop at 3-0". It's like the Chelsea game not one pundit or person on here said we should go and park the bus!
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    Pete McIntoshPete McIntosh Posts: 25
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    seellee wrote: »
    Well 81 points and top of the league isn't bad for a team with glaring weaknesses is it?

    Oh and by the way in football we all deal with the hypothetical, very little fact is discussed on these forums.

    In which case on the back of your 4-0 victory last night, the pressure is all back on City - three points back and needing nothing less than a win against Villa tomorrow night. ;-)

    You're right though - 81 points is a fantastic achievement. You have the most exciting attack in the League - your front 4/5 would be worthy champions. You'll probably fall short though as your defence is not up to scratch. There's your glaring weakness. Anyone remember Spurs under Ardiles? A joy to watch and goals galore - usually at both ends. They won nothing.
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    Slainte MhathSlainte Mhath Posts: 340
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    misawa97 wrote: »
    easy to blame the defence but you defend as a team and as Rodgers said its all about Game management

    All defending is about teamwork and it's a hell of a lot easier for the defenders when the whole team defends well, but the difference a world class centre back makes isn't reflected in just the individual performance of that player, it's also reflected in how they organise the other players around them.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,538
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    seellee wrote: »
    Yes agree about Lucas. His best position is where Gerrard plays.

    People are saying a slip or bad defending cost us but actually I'm starting to wonder if Jordan's red card is the real thing that's cost us. If anything that's what other fans should be laughing at.

    You are also right about hindsight. Not one person thought "ooh let's shut up shop at 3-0". It's like the Chelsea game not one pundit or person on here said we should go and park the bus!

    That's a lot to do with it imo.
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    Draca_NoirDraca_Noir Posts: 1,348
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    I agree to an extent - the second goal that came from your own corner was probably as a result of committing too many bodies forward, but after that, your back four got deeper and deeper, Gerrard and Lucas just sat in front, and you invited the pressure Palace put you under. The equaliser was not down to you chasing more goals, it was down to poor positioning (Sakho), poor covering (Johnson), and alack of leadership - everytime that ball was cleared your back 4 should have been sprinting away from the 18 yard line, rather than sitting and waiting for the next ball into the box.

    Our defence does need work - there's no doubt about that but go back throughout the season and we've conceded when dropping deep, it's something that needs addressing but I'd rather be in our position than Chelsea's - it's harder these days to beat teams who park the bus (even Barcelona have struggled to score against relegation threatened teams) whereas apart from the Chelsea game, we have looked like opening teams up for fun, even yesterday against a Tony Pulis side that is known for it's miserly defence we dominated and created chance after chance.

    We probably need a defensive coach to come in and help with that aspect of the game.
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    Draca_NoirDraca_Noir Posts: 1,348
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    seellee wrote: »
    Yes agree about Lucas. His best position is where Gerrard plays.

    People are saying a slip or bad defending cost us but actually I'm starting to wonder if Jordan's red card is the real thing that's cost us. If anything that's what other fans should be laughing at.

    You are also right about hindsight. Not one person thought "ooh let's shut up shop at 3-0". It's like the Chelsea game not one pundit or person on here said we should go and park the bus!

    I don't know about that - he's played every game until the ones he got suspended in and we've had the same problems - always look like conceding when we drop deep. He would have done better than Lucas no doubt who looks a yard off the pace.
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    mike65mike65 Posts: 11,386
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    I agree to an extent - the second goal that came from your own corner was probably as a result of committing too many bodies forward, but after that, your back four got deeper and deeper, Gerrard and Lucas just sat in front, and you invited the pressure Palace put you under. The equaliser was not down to you chasing more goals, it was down to poor positioning (Sakho), poor covering (Johnson), and al ack of leadership - everytime that ball was cleared your back 4 should have been sprinting away from the 18 yard line, rather than sitting and waiting for the next ball into the box.

    Decent post this, the lack of organisation is notable at the back, BUT Rodgers has to take a fair bit of stick for last night - two days ago he was talking about over turning a big goal difference and Liverpool don't play for 1-0 wins (even when they do!), and then having sent the team out to play "Banzai!!!!!!!!!!!" football then says after that Roty of the Rovers football cost the win.

    Well duh!

    Rodgers needs to decide what he wants - Liverpool can't attack with a swash of the buckle and defend well with this squad. At 3-0 it really should have occurred to someone that it was time to manage the game and take control of space between 25 and 50 yards out, wait for the turnover moments to happen and then not over-commit to attack.
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    Cantona07Cantona07 Posts: 56,910
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    Just back in the country and catching up on the results i missed. Last night was ridiculous but i think it does bear out something i said on here a couple of weeks ago - that its only when the pressure is REALLY on that you see the experience of the teams that have been over the course before. That game was over at 3-0. It was over at 3-1 and it was over at 3-2 in all honesty. If that game had been in December it would have been over completely but at this stage of the season getting the players to tie their bootlaces properly becomes a challenge of nerves.

    I also agree that no matter what happens you have to look at the season as a whole as being good because it exceeded expectations BUT having exceeded those expectations you have to look at this as a huge missed opportunity if you don't win the title this season and i honestly don't think its an opportunity that will present itself again in a hurry so you needed to take advantage when it came along.
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