I get the impression all major governments are stumped and don't know what to do. I predict further sanctions and russia will swallow the pill!
This whole incident I believe is going to high light the west's reluctance to act.
But then you get the Chinese and Iranians involved alongside Russia, plus some of South America (ignore North Korea, Kim's just a haircut on legs), and it could escalate quickly to a type of world war situation.
Perhaps mostly played out in the media and boardrooms but even so, sanctions, world market slumps, people unable to travel, fuel poverty from taps switched on and off, troop deployments, fear... it's not a pleasant thought.
Edit: Iran is debateable as being as overtly visibly 'anti-west' now (since Ahmedinnerjacket's reign ended) but still, Russia has plenty of backers.
The Sun newspaper is subtly accusing Russia of mass massacre today by publishing an article stating how there has been a large population drop in Grozny with no mention of where the people have gone, implying they have vanished of the face of the earth.
Why on earth is a civilian passenger jet flying over a war zone?
Just heard that the Malaysian Airlines Commercial Director, say they went with CAA guidelines on what are considered safe flight paths, and they and others have been flying that same flight path for some time, now there's been an incident like this, everyone is looking back saying you should have done something different, but at the time we were flying along with many other airlines on that flight path there had been no incidents involving civilian aircraft.
Many of the words above are his btw. But at the same time he should have known that it could happen, as the situation in that area was very unstable. That director would have come over better, had he said he was sorry and that his airline had made a mistake! How hard is it to say Sorry! Defending his airline isn't the way to gain any trust! I'm disgusted with him!
One of the 'sticking' problems is apparently the Ukraine forces have been close to defeating the pro-Russian separatists, at least that's what they've been claiming. The separatists see the Kiev uprising back in February which led to the eventual overthrow of Yanukovych as influenced by the West. Crimea quickly followed with armed men (their uniforms were non-descript) taking control.
Until M17, Ukraine had pretty much slipped off the front page as news.
Kiev have said they will agree to a ceasefire if the pro-Russian separatists give up their weapons and hand back control of the borders. They will then escort any international monitors to the crash site.
Somehow i can't see that happening. Kiev are effectively asking them to accept a defeat.
I've found it so sad reading about this awful tragedy and find the reports and speculation of Russian army involvement quite frightening. However, one thing that I am confused about this whole unfolding story is why Barack Obama and the USA seem to be the "spokesperson of the West" in all of this. As far as I know only one US citizen perished in this tragedy, far more people from the Netherlands, Australia and Malaysia lost their lives. I don't understand why every country looks to America in times of international crisis.
Ffs. This is not the fault of the routing or the airline. It is the fault of whoever pushed through button. There are conflict zones all over the world. Should every airline for example avoid tel aviv?
Planes can be built, but people can't. Civilian Airlines should avoid going over war zone at all times!
It's not at all clear whether Russia has much, if any, control over the separatists. If they did, this would never have happened in the first place.
I think what the other poster means is that by threatening to block the border, Putin could indirectly control the separatists on the broader scale (not for individual incidents), who would know that without a continuing free flow of men and material from Russia, they would soon have to give up.
Planes can be built, but people can't. Civilian Airlines should avoid going over war zone at all times!
Well Ukraine still allowed planes to fly over the eastern Ukraine( as the plane was in contact with Ukranian ATC when it was hit.). If they felt it was dangerous they should have shut the airspace down. They were happy enough to let planes fly over the area .
I've found it so sad reading about this awful tragedy and find the reports and speculation of Russian army involvement quite frightening. However, one thing that I am confused about this whole unfolding story is why Barack Obama and the USA seem to be the "spokesperson of the West" in all of this. As far as I know only one US citizen perished in this tragedy, far more people from the Netherlands, Australia and Malaysia lost their lives. I don't understand why every country looks to America in times of international crisis.
USA is a superpower and therefore holds a lot of cards. Because of the Crimea takeover, the USA placed sanctions on Russia, and has increased them since the plane was destroyed. Each of the families of the dead have done their best, but it would take their countries to do something to make a difference, but there's nothing to say that these countries are doing nothing, but the USA could do a lot more.
I get the impression all major governments are stumped and don't know what to do. I predict further sanctions and russia will swallow the pill!
It won't keep swallowing forever, and it's been doing some things already, eg the recently announced BRICs IMF alternative. If the West is determined to ostracise and alienate Russia, it makes sense for them to work on the developing countries. The US is pushing the EU hard to increase sanctions and Obama was asked yesterday if those were designed to protect US interests. 'Yes' says the prez. But then US-Russia trade is tiny compared to the EU, and sanctions harm the EU far more than the US. So Obama can talk tough knowing it'll cost the US little. Russia could simply retaliate by increasing gas prices or export duties which will cost our economy billions.
Ukraine's just being used as a proxy for the old East vs West politics, as are the unfortunate victims of the plane crash.
I have been bothered by the coverage of this incident and the headlines, I think back to the shooting down of the Iranian Airbus in 1988 by USS Vincennes killing 290 innocents, I am really uncomfortable with the "act of war" cries, yet WHO gave a toss about the innocents shot down by an over zealous, trigger happy American warship captain!!
It won't keep swallowing forever, and it's been doing some things already, eg the recently announced BRICs IMF alternative. If the West is determined to ostracise and alienate Russia, it makes sense for them to work on the developing countries. The US is pushing the EU hard to increase sanctions and Obama was asked yesterday if those were designed to protect US interests. 'Yes' says the prez. But then US-Russia trade is tiny compared to the EU, and sanctions harm the EU far more than the US. So Obama can talk tough knowing it'll cost the US little. Russia could simply retaliate by increasing gas prices or export duties which will cost our economy billions.
Ukraine's just being used as a proxy for the old East vs West politics, as are the unfortunate victims of the plane crash.
And America wont be affected by gas prices as it doesn't really buy much in as it makes enough.
Britain gets most of its gas from Norway and the North sea but Germany, Austria and anywhere east from there gets the majority of their gas from or through Russia and these places are much colder than the UK in winter time.
Well Ukraine still allowed planes to fly over the eastern Ukraine( as the plane was in contact with Ukranian ATC when it was hit.). If they felt it was dangerous they should have shut the airspace down. They were happy enough to let planes fly over the area .
It won't keep swallowing forever, and it's been doing some things already, eg the recently announced BRICs IMF alternative. If the West is determined to ostracise and alienate Russia, it makes sense for them to work on the developing countries. The US is pushing the EU hard to increase sanctions and Obama was asked yesterday if those were designed to protect US interests. 'Yes' says the prez. But then US-Russia trade is tiny compared to the EU, and sanctions harm the EU far more than the US. So Obama can talk tough knowing it'll cost the US little. Russia could simply retaliate by increasing gas prices or export duties which will cost our economy billions.
Ukraine's just being used as a proxy for the old East vs West politics, as are the unfortunate victims of the plane crash.
Obama ONLY talks tough, remember the "red line" Syria was in fear of!!!
I get the impression all major governments are stumped and don't know what to do. I predict further sanctions and russia will swallow the pill!
This whole incident I believe is going to high light the west's reluctance to act.
Where Russia is concerned sanctions are useless. All out war would kill millions, which would be a waste. But a Council of all the Countries would do more good.
Where Russia is concerned sanctions are useless. All out war would kill millions, which would be a waste. But a Council of all the Countries would do more good.
Hit em where it hurts and block all Aeroflot flights
Hit em where it hurts and block all Aeroflot flights
Nope, wouldn't work.
Why?. Because once you up the ante as you seem to want, Russia will simply either massively raise the price of energy or may decide to shut it off altogether. It would be a problem for Russia, but many EU countries would have an energy shortage in a couple of weeks.
Your "idea" would be far more damaging to EU states than Russia.....
Hit em where it hurts and block all Aeroflot flights
Russia would always find a way around that. The more Russia becomes isolated the more damage they could do. Best thing is keeping Russia onside to avoid a world war.
Comments
This whole incident I believe is going to high light the west's reluctance to act.
But then you get the Chinese and Iranians involved alongside Russia, plus some of South America (ignore North Korea, Kim's just a haircut on legs), and it could escalate quickly to a type of world war situation.
Perhaps mostly played out in the media and boardrooms but even so, sanctions, world market slumps, people unable to travel, fuel poverty from taps switched on and off, troop deployments, fear... it's not a pleasant thought.
Edit: Iran is debateable as being as overtly visibly 'anti-west' now (since Ahmedinnerjacket's reign ended) but still, Russia has plenty of backers.
I'll sort this out, dont worry.
Russia HAS carried out mass murder in Chechnya.
There. Sorted.
Just heard that the Malaysian Airlines Commercial Director, say they went with CAA guidelines on what are considered safe flight paths, and they and others have been flying that same flight path for some time, now there's been an incident like this, everyone is looking back saying you should have done something different, but at the time we were flying along with many other airlines on that flight path there had been no incidents involving civilian aircraft.
Many of the words above are his btw. But at the same time he should have known that it could happen, as the situation in that area was very unstable. That director would have come over better, had he said he was sorry and that his airline had made a mistake! How hard is it to say Sorry! Defending his airline isn't the way to gain any trust! I'm disgusted with him!
Until M17, Ukraine had pretty much slipped off the front page as news.
Kiev have said they will agree to a ceasefire if the pro-Russian separatists give up their weapons and hand back control of the borders. They will then escort any international monitors to the crash site.
Somehow i can't see that happening. Kiev are effectively asking them to accept a defeat.
That's what I was wondering.
Not only a war zone, but one where other planes and helicopters have very recently been shot down ....
I think what the other poster means is that by threatening to block the border, Putin could indirectly control the separatists on the broader scale (not for individual incidents), who would know that without a continuing free flow of men and material from Russia, they would soon have to give up.
But it doesn't suit Putin's agenda to do that.
I didn't know about Alec Salmond until I read that article!
"With an independent Scotland, this wouldn't have happened." I wouldn't put it past him to say this.
It won't keep swallowing forever, and it's been doing some things already, eg the recently announced BRICs IMF alternative. If the West is determined to ostracise and alienate Russia, it makes sense for them to work on the developing countries. The US is pushing the EU hard to increase sanctions and Obama was asked yesterday if those were designed to protect US interests. 'Yes' says the prez. But then US-Russia trade is tiny compared to the EU, and sanctions harm the EU far more than the US. So Obama can talk tough knowing it'll cost the US little. Russia could simply retaliate by increasing gas prices or export duties which will cost our economy billions.
Ukraine's just being used as a proxy for the old East vs West politics, as are the unfortunate victims of the plane crash.
Britain gets most of its gas from Norway and the North sea but Germany, Austria and anywhere east from there gets the majority of their gas from or through Russia and these places are much colder than the UK in winter time.
Obama ONLY talks tough, remember the "red line" Syria was in fear of!!!
Hit em where it hurts and block all Aeroflot flights
Nope, wouldn't work.
Why?. Because once you up the ante as you seem to want, Russia will simply either massively raise the price of energy or may decide to shut it off altogether. It would be a problem for Russia, but many EU countries would have an energy shortage in a couple of weeks.
Your "idea" would be far more damaging to EU states than Russia.....
Again, Putin cant be seen to control what the rebels do, so even IF he has that control, he certainly wont use it.
See aircraft avoiding Ukraine