The police could not comment because there was an investigation into it. The police can not justify or comment on all rumours, they have to wait for the facts before everybody jumps on them. Is it any wonder the police are standing back and letting rioters loot shops? There damned whatever they do, because they have to ''explain'' all their actions.
The public really has to make up their mind what type of police they want in this country. Or we want this softies we had in the last couple day, that decided that a burned livehood is not worth some cracked heads, or we accept that if unfortunately you are caught in the middle of a major public disturbance there will be some innocent casualties, and the police cannot in any way or form be responsible for it.
I have absolutely no sympathy for Mark Duggan or his family for that matter, one thing is someone totally innocent being executed because some policemen made a catastrophic mistake, they deserve to be punished, that's putting an incredibly low value on life, another is a known offender being shot in an altercation. Though luck, if you go around London armed, pretending to be an american gangster you may died like one.
The breakdown of the family unit is actually one of the reasons this country is in the state that it is.
I hate to go down this route but lets compare Duggan to my 29 year old brother
My brother was bought up on a rough Estate in North London, was unemployed for several years in his late teens as he had few qualitifcation and no experience, smoked marjuana daily - why was it not him who was shot on Thursday evening hey??
I'll tell you why, because my parents would not put up with him being a 19 year old bum and told him to sort his life out. Which he did... He now lives in his own place with his long term GF and baby!! He is currently full time "provider" as is partner is on Maternity leave.
Having 2 parents, pulling together and standing firm all those years ago made my brother take stock.
All 4 of my siblings and I have the same surname / parents and we're all decent, tax paying, law abiding citizens. Same as my OH and all his siblings (again they all have the same surname / parents)
In fact I can catergorically say that I can think of no-one I know who has gone off the rails who come from a 2 parent family. (I will balance this out by saying that I know plenty of people that come from single parent familes and have extended families etc that are good people)
MY WIG IS FIRM DEAR
I mostly agree about the 2-parent family thing (coming from one myself)
However I do believe that single parent families can also instill the same values into their children...
I for one am raising a child within a single parent environment and my daughter has to be one of the most positive people I know... all it takes is the teaching of right from wrong alongwith the ideology of treating others the way you expect to be treated!
I've got a couple of mates in the Police. To be honest, they are right bastards when they need to be, but they can spot a wrong un a mile off.
Perhaps we should give them the powers to execute any scumbag they don't like the look of, no questions asked. We could even devise a bonus scheme where pay is related to how many feral rats they exterminate each month with a national newspaper sponsored annual awards ceremony for the best performers.
Let's hope the death of this gangster is the first of many, many more to come. Happy days
Ok so only people who come from single parent families commit crimes ? Interesting, because I know of lots of people who have come from both sides (two parent families v single paernt families) who commit crimes.
Also I was quite offended by your previous comment about all his family having different names (some of his family must have the same name as him) to him.
Some of my family members have a different surname to me, my mom being one of them.......doesn't make them criminals.
I didn't say that did I?
I said that from the people I know first hand I do not know anyone from a "nuclear" family that went off the rails. That is purely my observation.
I counter balanced this by saying I also know plenty of people from single parent families that have gone onto to be successful, have good jobs etc..
MY WIG IS FIRM DEAR
I mostly agree about the 2-parent family thing (coming from one myself)
However I do believe that single parent families can also instill the same values into their children...
I for one am raising a child within a single parent environment and my daughter has to be one of the most positive people I know... all it takes is the teaching of right from wrong alongwith the ideology of treating others the way you expect to be treated!
See my comment above.
I didn't say that signle parent families do not / can not instill proper values etc... I said that in my own personal experience I cannot think of an example of someone who comes from a 2 parent family and that ended up "off the rails" (I didn't specifically mention criminality either!)
I said that from the people I know first hand I do not know anyone from a "nuclear" family that went off the rails. That is purely my observation.
I counter balanced this by saying I also know plenty of people from single parent families that have gone onto to be successful, have good jobs etc..
See my comment above.
I didn't say that signle parent families do not / can not instill proper values etc... I said that in my own personal experience I cannot think of an example of someone who comes from a 2 parent family and that ended up "off the rails" (I didn't specifically mention criminality either!)
Skp, don't have the answers, and I'm not saying that everything I've posted is absolute gospel fact backed up by official confirmation.
However I have not said that the family didn't know he was dead, just that they failed to get official contact from the police advising them that he was dead. Maybe they knew he was dead but that the police then failed to follow up with the circumstances? Who knows. But my point is that there is probably another side to this which is yet to come out. And also that something appears to have broken down regarding communication.
I think a lot of the communication stuff lies at the doors of the IPCC , the MET did appoint an FLO ( though a community leader said they didnt ) and so did the IPCC. However as this was handed over more or less immediately to the IPCC that meant the MET could not be involved , other than preserving the scene until the IPCC arrived. The IPCC also took over body identification etc , perhaps they should have made things clearer to the family that any questions should be directed to hem and not police who would not be allowed to answer or become involved.
According to BBC news, shot in circumstances which arestill unclear.
Well, why are they still unclear. What's the big secret here ?
The riots started because of him, leastways he was the catalyst for the riots. Surely it would make sense for a public statement as to what exactly happened.
The riot in that area was always going to happen, and the rest of them are nothing to do with it.
Riots have carried on after a statement was made, and I doubt most rioters would know who Mark Duggan was.
Whatever is released, people will read more into it, and want more questions answered. That is what the Inquest is for.
The riot in that area was always going to happen, and the rest of them are nothing to do with it.
Riots have carried on after a statement was made, and I doubt most rioters would know who Mark Duggan was.
Whatever is released, people will read more into it, and want more questions answered. That is what the Inquest is for.
LOLing at INQUEST!!! Inquests seem to protect police murderers too!!!
I know someone who died is custody... allegedly hanged himself with his shoelaces (which should have been taken from him when he was put in the cell...)...
This was a young man who had only a month before become a father....
A young man who truly had everything to live for....
This was a young man who had been in the cells because some sket lied and said he'd raped her because he no longer wanted to see her....
A woman who has since accused two other men of the same thing and again proved to have lied...
According to BBC news, shot in circumstances which arestill unclear.
Well, why are they still unclear. What's the big secret here ?
The riots started because of him, leastways he was the catalyst for the riots. Surely it would make sense for a public statement as to what exactly happened.
The riot in that area was always going to happen, and the rest of them are nothing to do with it.
Riots have carried on after a statement was made, and I doubt most rioters would know who Mark Duggan was.
Whatever is released, people will read more into it, and want more questions answered. That is what the Inquest is for.
Was it ~ please produce evidence to support that sweeping assertion. Sure, the riots may have occurred at some point, or the Summer may have passed with no ignition point. But it is widely acknowledged that Mark Duggan's death was the catalyst for the riots, albeit not the true underlying cause.
The circumstances of the shooting are unclear and contradictory. Say what you like to defend the status quo, but the fact is that it will wind up a community if there is silence as to what happened, especially if the family are told after the media, as stated earlier on here.
LOLing at INQUEST!!! Inquests seem to protect police murderers too!!!
I know someone who died is custody... allegedly hanged himself with his shoelaces (which should have been taken from him when he was put in the cell...)...
This was a young man who had only a month before become a father....
A young man who truly had everything to live for....
This was a young man who had been in the cells because some sket lied and said he'd raped her because he no longer wanted to see her....
A woman who has since accused two other men of the same thing and again proved to have lied...
Oh this just gets better and better. One guy they interviewed briefly on TV said he was still sitting in his car when he was shot.
This is what I mean ~ nobody knows what the circumstances were, and the police appear to want to cover it all up (at least that's how it comes across to the public). Naturally, communities whose relationship with the police is dodgy to begin with, will get pissed off. I would too.
Well said blueblade. I don't see how anyone can judge this guy as scum or whatever, as none of us know him personally. People are not defined by one choice they make(his choice being to carry a gun in order to avenge his cousin's death - not to harm innocent people), nor are they defined by a couple of photos. At the end of the day, this guy had a loving family and was well liked in his community, so I for one do not see him as scum.
That's exactly it. We really don't know what happened. I've just been slightly irked that people have been willing to believe one side of the story whilst dismissing the alternative wholesale.
It might all be a load of cack. But I just wish people would question more rather than just swallow what the media tells them. A few days ago people were claiming categorically that Duggan shot at a police officer. Now it seems that there is no evidence of this. You would think we'd learned from the de Menezes shambles to just wait and see.
Sadly, the police can't seem to get their heads round the fact that an explanation is needed when they shoot somebody dead.
I mean, y'know a guy has been SHOT DEAD and there is no public explanation emerging. Sorry but WTF.......:eek:
How the hell else do these boneheads expect local disaffected communities, already alienated from the police, to react ?
Well said blueblade. I don't see how anyone can judge this guy as scum or whatever, as none of us know him personally. People are not defined by one choice they make(his choice being to carry a gun in order to avenge his cousin's death - not to harm innocent people), nor are they defined by a couple of photos. At the end of the day, this guy had a loving family and was well liked in his community, so I for one do not see him as scum.
Cheers Puzzler. I agree with what you say.
Incidentally, I think all armed police should carry helmet cams to be on at all times during an operation. Then if a shooting occurs, the footage should immediately be made available to the media.
Like they tell us about CCTV ~ nothing to hide, nothing to fear.
Well said blueblade. I don't see how anyone can judge this guy as scum or whatever, as none of us know him personally. People are not defined by one choice they make(his choice being to carry a gun in order to avenge his cousin's death - not to harm innocent people), nor are they defined by a couple of photos. At the end of the day, this guy had a loving family and was well liked in his community, so I for one do not see him as scum.
Would he not have been better advised to spend the money he spent on a gun to "avenge his cousin's death" ( who the f*k does he think he is? The Punisher?) on toys, books, or even food for his kids, given he was a loving family man and all? After all such lethal weapons aren't cheap, and I'm assuming he didn't get a Christmas bonus at the dole office.
When his cousins murder has been suitably "avenged", ie another murder has been committed. I'm assuming that the gun will never be used again right.
Well your entitled to your opinion of course, everyone is. But if you truly think that this guy was a pillar of the community, who had only everyones best interest at heart then can I interest you in buying a large tower in the middle of Paris, it's going cheap and I'll even give you a 10% discount for cash
Would he not have been better advised to spend the money he spent on a gun to "avenge his cousin's death" ( who the f*k does he think he is? The Punisher?) on toys, books, or even food for his kids, given he was a loving family man and all? After all such lethal weapons aren't cheap, and I'm assuming he didn't get a Christmas bonus at the dole office.
When his cousins murder has been suitably "avenged", ie another murder has been committed. I'm assuming that the gun will never be used again right.
Well your entitled to your opinion of course, everyone is. But if you truly think that this guy was a pillar of the community, who had only everyones best interest at heart then can I interest you in buying a large tower in the middle of Paris, it's going cheap and I'll even give you a 10% discount for cash
That's not what I'm saying at all. No one is perfect, and IMO he is not the evil, feral scumbag that people are making him out to be. People have different aspects to their personalities - very few are pure evil.
Well said blueblade. I don't see how anyone can judge this guy as scum or whatever, as none of us know him personally. People are not defined by one choice they make(his choice being to carry a gun in order to avenge his cousin's death - not to harm innocent people), nor are they defined by a couple of photos. At the end of the day, this guy had a loving family and was well liked in his community, so I for one do not see him as scum.
Bet you live in a sleepy leafy suburb somewhere and only see people like this on TV.
Well said blueblade. I don't see how anyone can judge this guy as scum or whatever, as none of us know him personally. People are not defined by one choice they make(his choice being to carry a gun in order to avenge his cousin's death - not to harm innocent people), nor are they defined by a couple of photos. At the end of the day, this guy had a loving family and was well liked in his community, so I for one do not see him as scum.
The Voice, Britain's leading black newspaper, has claimed that Duggan "had links to the Star Gang", one of several criminal groups in north London whose turf wars have caused at least three deaths over the past few years.
Duggan was born on September 15 1981 and attended St David's and St Katherine's, now Greig City Academy, in Hornsey. At the time of his death last Thursday he was under investigation by officers from Trident, the Metropolitan police unit responsible for gun crime within the black community.
Bet you live in a sleepy leafy suburb somewhere and only see people like this on TV.
Then you're very wrong. While I don't live in the roughest area in my city, I've grown up around drugs and gangs - I'm not some out of touch leftwinger, far from it in fact. All I'm saying is that lads like Duggan aren't monsters.
(his choice being to carry a gun in order to avenge his cousin's death - not to harm innocent people)
You really don't understand how it works, do you?
In law it is not his choice to carry an unlicensed firearm no matter what the reason.
All a bit immaterial now as he is no longer able to avenge his cousins death
Skp, don't have the answers, and I'm not saying that everything I've posted is absolute gospel fact backed up by official confirmation.
However I have not said that the family didn't know he was dead, just that they failed to get official contact from the police advising them that he was dead. Maybe they knew he was dead but that the police then failed to follow up with the circumstances? Who knows. But my point is that there is probably another side to this which is yet to come out. And also that something appears to have broken down regarding communication.
He was named to the media locally, not by the police. They can't really do much if witnesses, friends, etc. blab to the press. They still have to keep quiet in regardes to the investigation
Comments
I have absolutely no sympathy for Mark Duggan or his family for that matter, one thing is someone totally innocent being executed because some policemen made a catastrophic mistake, they deserve to be punished, that's putting an incredibly low value on life, another is a known offender being shot in an altercation. Though luck, if you go around London armed, pretending to be an american gangster you may died like one.
I mostly agree about the 2-parent family thing (coming from one myself)
However I do believe that single parent families can also instill the same values into their children...
I for one am raising a child within a single parent environment and my daughter has to be one of the most positive people I know... all it takes is the teaching of right from wrong alongwith the ideology of treating others the way you expect to be treated!
Perhaps we should give them the powers to execute any scumbag they don't like the look of, no questions asked. We could even devise a bonus scheme where pay is related to how many feral rats they exterminate each month with a national newspaper sponsored annual awards ceremony for the best performers.
Let's hope the death of this gangster is the first of many, many more to come. Happy days
I didn't say that did I?
I said that from the people I know first hand I do not know anyone from a "nuclear" family that went off the rails. That is purely my observation.
I counter balanced this by saying I also know plenty of people from single parent families that have gone onto to be successful, have good jobs etc..
See my comment above.
I didn't say that signle parent families do not / can not instill proper values etc... I said that in my own personal experience I cannot think of an example of someone who comes from a 2 parent family and that ended up "off the rails" (I didn't specifically mention criminality either!)
Neither did I......
I think a lot of the communication stuff lies at the doors of the IPCC , the MET did appoint an FLO ( though a community leader said they didnt ) and so did the IPCC. However as this was handed over more or less immediately to the IPCC that meant the MET could not be involved , other than preserving the scene until the IPCC arrived. The IPCC also took over body identification etc , perhaps they should have made things clearer to the family that any questions should be directed to hem and not police who would not be allowed to answer or become involved.
The riot in that area was always going to happen, and the rest of them are nothing to do with it.
Riots have carried on after a statement was made, and I doubt most rioters would know who Mark Duggan was.
Whatever is released, people will read more into it, and want more questions answered. That is what the Inquest is for.
I know someone who died is custody... allegedly hanged himself with his shoelaces (which should have been taken from him when he was put in the cell...)...
This was a young man who had only a month before become a father....
A young man who truly had everything to live for....
This was a young man who had been in the cells because some sket lied and said he'd raped her because he no longer wanted to see her....
A woman who has since accused two other men of the same thing and again proved to have lied...
Inquest returned an Open Verdict... WTF!!!
Was it ~ please produce evidence to support that sweeping assertion. Sure, the riots may have occurred at some point, or the Summer may have passed with no ignition point. But it is widely acknowledged that Mark Duggan's death was the catalyst for the riots, albeit not the true underlying cause.
The circumstances of the shooting are unclear and contradictory. Say what you like to defend the status quo, but the fact is that it will wind up a community if there is silence as to what happened, especially if the family are told after the media, as stated earlier on here.
What should the verdict have been then?
Well said blueblade. I don't see how anyone can judge this guy as scum or whatever, as none of us know him personally. People are not defined by one choice they make(his choice being to carry a gun in order to avenge his cousin's death - not to harm innocent people), nor are they defined by a couple of photos. At the end of the day, this guy had a loving family and was well liked in his community, so I for one do not see him as scum.
Sadly, the police can't seem to get their heads round the fact that an explanation is needed when they shoot somebody dead.
I mean, y'know a guy has been SHOT DEAD and there is no public explanation emerging. Sorry but WTF.......:eek:
How the hell else do these boneheads expect local disaffected communities, already alienated from the police, to react ?
Get real here :rolleyes:
Cheers Puzzler. I agree with what you say.
Incidentally, I think all armed police should carry helmet cams to be on at all times during an operation. Then if a shooting occurs, the footage should immediately be made available to the media.
Like they tell us about CCTV ~ nothing to hide, nothing to fear.
Would he not have been better advised to spend the money he spent on a gun to "avenge his cousin's death" ( who the f*k does he think he is? The Punisher?) on toys, books, or even food for his kids, given he was a loving family man and all? After all such lethal weapons aren't cheap, and I'm assuming he didn't get a Christmas bonus at the dole office.
When his cousins murder has been suitably "avenged", ie another murder has been committed. I'm assuming that the gun will never be used again right.
Well your entitled to your opinion of course, everyone is. But if you truly think that this guy was a pillar of the community, who had only everyones best interest at heart then can I interest you in buying a large tower in the middle of Paris, it's going cheap and I'll even give you a 10% discount for cash
It's been less than a week since Mark Duggan was shot. How quickly do you expect "a public explanation"?
Bet you live in a sleepy leafy suburb somewhere and only see people like this on TV.
The Voice, Britain's leading black newspaper, has claimed that Duggan "had links to the Star Gang", one of several criminal groups in north London whose turf wars have caused at least three deaths over the past few years.
Duggan was born on September 15 1981 and attended St David's and St Katherine's, now Greig City Academy, in Hornsey. At the time of his death last Thursday he was under investigation by officers from Trident, the Metropolitan police unit responsible for gun crime within the black community.
Ask the community who first rioted over it.
"We've shot one of yours dead, but you'll have to wait to find out why we did it"
FFS :rolleyes:
Then you're very wrong. While I don't live in the roughest area in my city, I've grown up around drugs and gangs - I'm not some out of touch leftwinger, far from it in fact. All I'm saying is that lads like Duggan aren't monsters.
In law it is not his choice to carry an unlicensed firearm no matter what the reason.
All a bit immaterial now as he is no longer able to avenge his cousins death
He was named to the media locally, not by the police. They can't really do much if witnesses, friends, etc. blab to the press. They still have to keep quiet in regardes to the investigation