It's my opinion, that's all. I find any kind of poking about in human remains distasteful (albeit sometimes necessary). The Facebook page promotion, calling it a 'Bone Lab', allowing public viewing - these things don't come across as treating peoples' remains with privacy and dignity.
What makes you think I'm angry? I'm perfectly calm, just sad at the lack of respect shown to the deceased. I'd be saddened at anybody treated in the same way, whoever they were, whenever they lived.
Any research carried out on people's remains should be in private, with respect for them as once living people.
You have yet to prove that the bones are examined in public theatre.
All it says is that the bone lab is open, like a pathology lab in a hospital is open to limited public access.
You have yet to prove that the bones are examined in public theatre.
I don't have to prove anything, I'm perfectly entitled to feel that anybody prodding about in somebody else's remains in a 'Bone Lab' is distasteful if I want to. And I doubt you would accept any proof that I'd offer anyway.
There's a concern that Richard's remains are still being held by the university, breaking an agreement that, once testing is completed, they would be placed in a catholic santuary until the time of reinterment. Dr. Ashdown-Hill has been led to understand that this hasn't happened:
A lot can be learned about ancient diseases, living/working conditions, general health, differences between the wealthy and poor, etc. from examining skeletal remains.
Modern academics treat all human remains with respect and carry out any investigations according to strict ethical guidelines.
A lot can be learned about ancient diseases, living/working conditions, general health, differences between the wealthy and poor, etc. from examining skeletal remains.
Modern academics treat all human remains with respect and carry out any investigations according to strict ethical guidelines.
It's what might be happening when the cameras are off, that worries me.
What the academics say and what they're doing don't seem to match. They insist that Richard's remains are being kept securely in an appropriate way, but Lin Foxhall admitted that the box was in her office under an old kettle for a while.
They agreed to give them to a place of catholic sanctity to rest after they'd finished testing, but they haven't. And I don't consider making copies of his skeleton for display purposes, particularly respectful or ethical. Nor putting a mattock through his skull during the excavation. And certainly not wanting to keep exhuming his bones for further testing in the future, or as the Leicester University link I posted recently states, some academics not wanting to bury them at all.
Just because ethical guidelines exist, doesn't mean that they're being followed.
It's what might be happening when the cameras are off, that worries me.
What the academics say and what they're doing don't seem to match. They insist that Richard's remains are being kept securely in an appropriate way, but Lin Foxhall admitted that the box was in her office under an old kettle for a while.
They agreed to give them to a place of catholic sanctity to rest after they'd finished testing, but they haven't. And I don't consider making copies of his skeleton for display purposes, particularly respectful or ethical. Nor putting a mattock through his skull during the excavation. And certainly not wanting to keep exhuming his bones for further testing in the future, or as the Leicester University link I posted recently states, some academics not wanting to bury them at all.
Just because ethical guidelines exist, doesn't mean that they're being followed.
If you believe they aren't living up to their ethical responsibilities, then I suggest you make a complaint to the relevant authorities. If not, then all you are doing is whining.
After all, ethics aren't set in stone, there's always room for improvement. One hundred years ago, it would have been perfectly acceptable to drill holes in his skeleton and put him on display. These days it isn't.
If you believe they aren't living up to their ethical responsibilities, then I suggest you make a complaint to the relevant authorities. If not, then all you are doing is whining.
Complaints have been made, both by myself and by quite a number of others, including some of the main players in this whole situation. We've all been fobbed off with excuses.
Complaints have been made, both by myself and by quite a number of others, including some of the main players in this whole situation. We've all been fobbed off with excuses.
It's all up to the legal process now.
Honestly, you've personally made an ethics based complaint:D:D:D You are quite mad:D You have no evidence whatsoever, they will laugh at it.
There's plenty of evidence, much of which has been included in this thread over the last year (much of which hasn't), and almost all of which has been ignored or ridiculed by those who choose not to believe it. That is entirely up to you. But to state that there's no evidence is absolutely untrue.
Really excellent article here, regarding Leicester University's shoddy treatment of both Richard's remains, and those involved who have been pushed out by their behaviour:
Dr. Ashdown-Hill has commented underneath, in response to somebody criticising the Plantagenet Alliance for being 'outsiders' (he did their DNA testing, and assessed their claims):
John Ashdown-Hill
January 14, 2014 at 5:32 pm
Let’s be completely accurate about this. The Earl of Loudoun is a great …. GRANDSON of the Duke of Clarence, and in my view certainly has a right to be heard if he wishes to express an opinion. But Vanessa Roe, one of the Plantagenet Alliance leaders is a great … GRANDAUGHTER of the Duke of Clarence, and also has a right to be heard. Other members of the Plantagenet Alliance are great GRANDCHILDREN of either King Edward IV or of Anne of York, Duchess of Exeter – and also have a right to express an opinion. In the end it may not be possible to satisfy everyone, but those with opinions should be able to express them and then, I think, some INDEPENDENT body will be needed to make the final decisions.
I'm very glad to see it in his own words, that the members of the PA are indeed legitimate and proven descendants. Hopefully this will put that part of Leicester's argument to bed now.
One-sided? It's exposing the nasty going's-on behind the scenes, that the university is trying to contain to protect themselves. Much of this will come out in court.
Excellent ten minute slot on Great British Railway Journeys, with Portillo getting a succinct and impressive account of the DNA testing identifying Richard's remains, the fortuitous alignment of Leicester Uni's world leading DNA and archaeology research, with the batshit crazies of the Richard III society.
Great publicity for Leicester and the University. Thanks Mike!
Excellent ten minute slot on Great British Railway Journeys, with Portillo getting a succinct and impressive account of the DNA testing identifying Richard's remains, the fortuitous alignment of Leicester Uni's world leading DNA and archaeology research, with the batshit crazies of the Richard III society.
Great publicity for Leicester and the University. Thanks Mike!
Oy, I resent that comment. I am most definately not "batshit crazy" and I am a member of the Society.>:(
One-sided? It's exposing the nasty going's-on behind the scenes, that the university is trying to contain to protect themselves. Much of this will come out in court.
Eh? Surely you read the same article....It exposed nothing other than one person's POV about the situation. it slung lots of accusations about the behaviour of LU and at no point offered the uni a right of reply on them. It just contained lots of " Leicester did this...., and Leicester did that...." Non of which was put to LU to discuss or verify or refute or present their side. As I said I prefer both sides to have their opportunity to give an account of a situation, then and only then I might call it excellent. I always find that there are 3 sides to every story....One party's, the other party's and then somewhere in the middle is the truth.
You have posted some good links, this is not one of them.
Hi especially to damianswife and DPS. I thought I would join you in this discussion as we are on the same page, so to speak.
I haven't posted to argue or become embroiled in arguments, but the situation with King Richard's earthly remains is now completely out of hand.
It has been said recently by a very learned and respected academic
( I will not name him but he is much admired and has been shamefully sidelined by the UoL) that there are NO MORE 'tests' that the UoL can actually make. I imagine that surely must be the case.
In my opinion it is horrific that a Crowned King of this land has been allowed to be treated like some laboratory specimen in the first place. Yes there will be cries of 'But we need to know lots of scientific facts' from those who appear to have no sense of reverence or respect for the dignity of fellow humans. Well, by now even those type of people should know enough for their satisfaction.
It is time to let the King's body rest in a place of religious sanctuary and dignity. We do not know what the outcome of the March Judicial Review will be. However, the UoL should at least have the decency to show respect for King Richard at long last and release him now to the care of hallowed and sanctified surroundings.
As for the 'batshit crazy' remarks.. well the media love to make targets of we Ricardians' as it fits their agenda and the public love a neat stereotype.
Nothing new to us.. I prefer to regard us as Non Conformists.
Hi especially to damianswife and DPS. I thought I would join you in this discussion as we are on the same page, so to speak.
I haven't posted to argue or become embroiled in arguments, but the situation with King Richard's earthly remains is now completely out of hand.
It has been said recently by a very learned and respected academic
( I will not name him but he is much admired and has been shamefully sidelined by the UoL) that there are NO MORE 'tests' that the UoL can actually make. I imagine that surely must be the case.
In my opinion it is horrific that a Crowned King of this land has been allowed to be treated like some laboratory specimen in the first place. Yes there will be cries of 'But we need to know lots of scientific facts' from those who appear to have no sense of reverence or respect for the dignity of fellow humans. Well, by now even those type of people should know enough for their satisfaction.
It is time to let the King's body rest in a place of religious sanctuary and dignity. We do not know what the outcome of the March Judicial Review will be. However, the UoL should at least have the decency to show respect for King Richard at long last and release him now to the care of hallowed and sanctified surroundings.
As for the 'batshit crazy' remarks.. well the media love to make targets of we Ricardians' as it fits their agenda and the public love a neat stereotype.
Nothing new to us.. I prefer to regard us as Non Conformists.
I don't want to see him buried in Leicester, and think catholic burial rites would be appropriate, but that is so far as it goes, for me.
The delays are a good thing, in that we can at least be reassured due process was followed, (whatever the final decision and I don't think Leicester have much to fear), and any remaining tests can be done now whilst the bones are still above ground. Precisely how they are stored is less important than the fact they are secure.
I am not a Ricardian - quite the opposite. I think maybe their involvement is what has muddied the waters all along; made the whole thing easy to not take seriously - and it would be better for them to not be involved. I happen to know a descendant - she is about as related as anyone in the Plantagenet Alliance, but often on male lines where they use female for DNA. And she is against him being buried in York. Personally, I really don't get that. But there are people out there, also related, who have a different view.
I would like to disbelieve the media stereotype re. Ricardians but sadly, the only one I ever met really is batshit crazy. To the point she pulled me aside and confided she thought she was the reincarnation of Richard III. This woman writes books and everything. That is scary. Maybe you aren't all like that but so long as you have members who are - best take a back seat in this business, eh?
I think politicians - local and nationally, the present government - would have too much egg on their faces if he was buried anywhere else now, plus they have always been philistines - so it looks likely that he will stay put. This is a shame - but there you go.
I'm not too concerned where the remains are, so long as they are being studied and protected and are safe. I don't think they need to be in a church, or on 'hallowed' ground til the time comes. A lot of this discussion about labs and kettles is therefore pointless.
Eh? Surely you read the same article....It exposed nothing other than one person's POV about the situation. it slung lots of accusations about the behaviour of LU and at no point offered the uni a right of reply on them. It just contained lots of " Leicester did this...., and Leicester did that...." Non of which was put to LU to discuss or verify or refute or present their side. As I said I prefer both sides to have their opportunity to give an account of a situation, then and only then I might call it excellent. I always find that there are 3 sides to every story....One party's, the other party's and then somewhere in the middle is the truth.
You have posted some good links, this is not one of them.
Of course I read the same article, and much of what was said can be backed up by evidence likely to be presented to the court. They will judge on that, not our opinions. I stand by my comments about it being an excellent article.
It has been said recently by a very learned and respected academic ( I will not name him but he is much admired and has been shamefully sidelined by the UoL) that there are NO MORE 'tests' that the UoL can actually make. I imagine that surely must be the case.
In my opinion it is horrific that a Crowned King of this land has been allowed to be treated like some laboratory specimen in the first place.
Hello 'His Girl Friday' and 'damianswife'! I quite agree that we know enough from Richard's remains by now, and what we've been told adds nothing to what has already been discovered about nobility in that period of history. At least one of their announcements, nobody needed to hear, it was an utter breach of his dignity. They should leave him alone now.
What makes it all worse is their desire to keep digging him up in the future in case of scientific advancements. They've no concept of respect for the dead at all.
That's me 'read my rights' then. Ha
Well I've written my little diatribe and doubt I could add anything more to this particular discussion.
'Exit...chased by a bear'- as an old propagandist wrote.
I've spent a fair amount of time at med/science student events here (through my OH and our best friend) and i've heard a good few of them talk about everything from where they've signed their name with a scalpel to playing catch games with internal organs.
I hope the amount of publicity around it is at least making them behave a bit.
I hope the amount of publicity around it is at least making them behave a bit.
Not even slightly, I'm afraid. They seem to be desperate to hide what they've been doing, even to the point of contradicting each other, lying about what one of them has publicly said on a BBC Radio broadcast, and getting a newspaper article in the Gazette pulled, to try to stop Dr. Ashdown-Hill from having his say.
Not to mention what they want to do with Richard's bones. Even when he's been reinterred, they want a removable ossuary box for their scientific convenience. He's an experimental plaything to them, not a person.
I am not a Ricardian - quite the opposite. I think maybe their involvement is what has muddied the waters all along; made the whole thing easy to not take seriously - and it would be better for them to not be involved. I happen to know a descendant - she is about as related as anyone in the Plantagenet Alliance, but often on male lines where they use female for DNA. And she is against him being buried in York. Personally, I really don't get that. But there are people out there, also related, who have a different view.
I would like to disbelieve the media stereotype re. Ricardians but sadly, the only one I ever met really is batshit crazy. To the point she pulled me aside and confided she thought she was the reincarnation of Richard III. This woman writes books and everything. That is scary. Maybe you aren't all like that but so long as you have members who are - best take a back seat in this business, eh?
That's me 'read my rights' then. Ha
Well I've written my little diatribe and doubt I could add anything more to this particular discussion.
'Exit...chased by a bear'- as an old propagandist wrote.
If he'd been pro Plantagenet, he probably wouldn't have kept his head.:)
Comments
You have yet to prove that the bones are examined in public theatre.
All it says is that the bone lab is open, like a pathology lab in a hospital is open to limited public access.
I don't have to prove anything, I'm perfectly entitled to feel that anybody prodding about in somebody else's remains in a 'Bone Lab' is distasteful if I want to. And I doubt you would accept any proof that I'd offer anyway.
There's a concern that Richard's remains are still being held by the university, breaking an agreement that, once testing is completed, they would be placed in a catholic santuary until the time of reinterment. Dr. Ashdown-Hill has been led to understand that this hasn't happened:
http://www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/10916066.Give_Richard_III_a_decent_burial___historian/
There's now a petition calling for this to be done:
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Justice_Review_panel_on_the_subject_of_Richard_III_LondonEngland_Remove_the_remains_of_King_Richard_III_to_a_neutral_sit/?Day2Share
Modern academics treat all human remains with respect and carry out any investigations according to strict ethical guidelines.
I would expect nothing less in front of a camera.
What the academics say and what they're doing don't seem to match. They insist that Richard's remains are being kept securely in an appropriate way, but Lin Foxhall admitted that the box was in her office under an old kettle for a while.
They agreed to give them to a place of catholic sanctity to rest after they'd finished testing, but they haven't. And I don't consider making copies of his skeleton for display purposes, particularly respectful or ethical. Nor putting a mattock through his skull during the excavation. And certainly not wanting to keep exhuming his bones for further testing in the future, or as the Leicester University link I posted recently states, some academics not wanting to bury them at all.
Just because ethical guidelines exist, doesn't mean that they're being followed.
If you believe they aren't living up to their ethical responsibilities, then I suggest you make a complaint to the relevant authorities. If not, then all you are doing is whining.
After all, ethics aren't set in stone, there's always room for improvement. One hundred years ago, it would have been perfectly acceptable to drill holes in his skeleton and put him on display. These days it isn't.
Complaints have been made, both by myself and by quite a number of others, including some of the main players in this whole situation. We've all been fobbed off with excuses.
It's all up to the legal process now.
Honestly, you've personally made an ethics based complaint:D:D:D You are quite mad:D You have no evidence whatsoever, they will laugh at it.
How much more personal abuse do I have to endure on this thread?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01nh8s7
http://nerdalicious.com.au/history/just-who-is-the-custodian-of-king-richard-iiis-bones/
Dr. Ashdown-Hill has commented underneath, in response to somebody criticising the Plantagenet Alliance for being 'outsiders' (he did their DNA testing, and assessed their claims):
I'm very glad to see it in his own words, that the members of the PA are indeed legitimate and proven descendants. Hopefully this will put that part of Leicester's argument to bed now.
Great publicity for Leicester and the University. Thanks Mike!
Oy, I resent that comment. I am most definately not "batshit crazy" and I am a member of the Society.>:(
Eh? Surely you read the same article....It exposed nothing other than one person's POV about the situation. it slung lots of accusations about the behaviour of LU and at no point offered the uni a right of reply on them. It just contained lots of " Leicester did this...., and Leicester did that...." Non of which was put to LU to discuss or verify or refute or present their side. As I said I prefer both sides to have their opportunity to give an account of a situation, then and only then I might call it excellent. I always find that there are 3 sides to every story....One party's, the other party's and then somewhere in the middle is the truth.
You have posted some good links, this is not one of them.
I haven't posted to argue or become embroiled in arguments, but the situation with King Richard's earthly remains is now completely out of hand.
It has been said recently by a very learned and respected academic
( I will not name him but he is much admired and has been shamefully sidelined by the UoL) that there are NO MORE 'tests' that the UoL can actually make. I imagine that surely must be the case.
In my opinion it is horrific that a Crowned King of this land has been allowed to be treated like some laboratory specimen in the first place. Yes there will be cries of 'But we need to know lots of scientific facts' from those who appear to have no sense of reverence or respect for the dignity of fellow humans. Well, by now even those type of people should know enough for their satisfaction.
It is time to let the King's body rest in a place of religious sanctuary and dignity. We do not know what the outcome of the March Judicial Review will be. However, the UoL should at least have the decency to show respect for King Richard at long last and release him now to the care of hallowed and sanctified surroundings.
As for the 'batshit crazy' remarks.. well the media love to make targets of we Ricardians' as it fits their agenda and the public love a neat stereotype.
Nothing new to us.. I prefer to regard us as Non Conformists.
Nothing beyond supposition and the vast plains of your imagination then.
I don't want to see him buried in Leicester, and think catholic burial rites would be appropriate, but that is so far as it goes, for me.
The delays are a good thing, in that we can at least be reassured due process was followed, (whatever the final decision and I don't think Leicester have much to fear), and any remaining tests can be done now whilst the bones are still above ground. Precisely how they are stored is less important than the fact they are secure.
I am not a Ricardian - quite the opposite. I think maybe their involvement is what has muddied the waters all along; made the whole thing easy to not take seriously - and it would be better for them to not be involved. I happen to know a descendant - she is about as related as anyone in the Plantagenet Alliance, but often on male lines where they use female for DNA. And she is against him being buried in York. Personally, I really don't get that. But there are people out there, also related, who have a different view.
I would like to disbelieve the media stereotype re. Ricardians but sadly, the only one I ever met really is batshit crazy. To the point she pulled me aside and confided she thought she was the reincarnation of Richard III.
I think politicians - local and nationally, the present government - would have too much egg on their faces if he was buried anywhere else now, plus they have always been philistines - so it looks likely that he will stay put. This is a shame - but there you go.
I'm not too concerned where the remains are, so long as they are being studied and protected and are safe. I don't think they need to be in a church, or on 'hallowed' ground til the time comes. A lot of this discussion about labs and kettles is therefore pointless.
That remains to be seen. To me, it merely exposes further that Leicester University is only interested in promoting their own version of events.
Mr. Portillo has already been sent the other side of the argument, with evidence. If he gives permission, I'll post his reply.
Of course I read the same article, and much of what was said can be backed up by evidence likely to be presented to the court. They will judge on that, not our opinions. I stand by my comments about it being an excellent article.
Hello 'His Girl Friday' and 'damianswife'! I quite agree that we know enough from Richard's remains by now, and what we've been told adds nothing to what has already been discovered about nobility in that period of history. At least one of their announcements, nobody needed to hear, it was an utter breach of his dignity. They should leave him alone now.
What makes it all worse is their desire to keep digging him up in the future in case of scientific advancements. They've no concept of respect for the dead at all.
And the evidence that's leaking out from behind the scenes, including testimony from some of the major players in this conflict.
Well I've written my little diatribe and doubt I could add anything more to this particular discussion.
'Exit...chased by a bear'- as an old propagandist wrote.
I've spent a fair amount of time at med/science student events here (through my OH and our best friend) and i've heard a good few of them talk about everything from where they've signed their name with a scalpel to playing catch games with internal organs.
I hope the amount of publicity around it is at least making them behave a bit.
Please don't go, you've made some very good points.
Not even slightly, I'm afraid. They seem to be desperate to hide what they've been doing, even to the point of contradicting each other, lying about what one of them has publicly said on a BBC Radio broadcast, and getting a newspaper article in the Gazette pulled, to try to stop Dr. Ashdown-Hill from having his say.
Not to mention what they want to do with Richard's bones. Even when he's been reinterred, they want a removable ossuary box for their scientific convenience. He's an experimental plaything to them, not a person.
Her initials are not J.-A. R. are they?
If he'd been pro Plantagenet, he probably wouldn't have kept his head.:)