Sol Campbell: playing the racism card

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  • PeePee Posts: 8,154
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    you can't be this impervious to common sense, surely? in what way do those statistics have ANYTHING to with the points being made?
  • Cantona07Cantona07 Posts: 56,910
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    homer2012 wrote: »
    Facts to back up that claim??

    Sol campbell is a crying wolf to sell a book just like so many others do.

    Contraversy creates cash.
    Dixon wrote: »
    So what are your suggestions then?
    Please dont tell me you'd want 'quotas' like they now have in South Africa and positive discrimination in the USA? Hiring someone because they're non white is as bad as not hiring someone because of their colour or race.

    I heard his interview and imo he came across as incrediby arrogant and with a massive chip on his shoulder. :(

    The ability to miss the point is impressive here.

    Forget about Sol Campbell and look at the bigger issue. I dont know how many times i have said that.

    There are plenty of black footballers in the English game, i think most people would accept that and agree with that. If you are a good young black footballer there doesnt seem to be huge barriers to entry to become involved in the game in a playing capacity.

    Now what i am asking is why is it that virtually NONE of these people remain in the game after they have finished playing and go on to become top managers or even decent managers? Are we really supposed to believe that its just a HUGE coincidence that none of them fancy being a manager, and even if we do believe that the question remains why? Why is all this ability that these guys have going untapped by clubs?

    I'm not saying its racism, or even deliberate or whatever but surely we arent really saying that there isnt an issue? Something is preventing black managers being developed and the evidence for it is the complete absence of black managers, its pretty simple. No, im not saying we need quotas but i am saying we need to ask the question and to look at it a bit deeper than just dismissing the entire thing based on the fact that SOl Campbell might be a bit of a tosser and be wrong in his own case.
  • Jim De VilleJim De Ville Posts: 16,097
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    It's a well-worn line, but the lack of British-Asian players in the game would tend to back up Cantona's point, in my opinion.
  • DixonDixon Posts: 12,987
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    It's a well-worn line, but the lack of British-Asian players in the game would tend to back up Cantona's point, in my opinion.

    None of us know what is going through the mind of a Chariman when he hires a manager, so it can never ne proved a none white player was not hired because he's not white!

    I'm sure there are racist people at the top of football, just like there is any anyother walk of life.
    But we're talking about a multi billion pound industry in which everyone is desperate for success and the finacial rewards that come with it. If a Chairman has a choice between hiring a black guy who's the better qualified for the job but gives it to a white guy just because he's white, then the he's an idiot and holding his own club back!
    The same goes for anyother job as well!

    Things and attitudes might be changing at a slower pace than we'd like, but the only real alternative to slow change is to introduce quotas and that does more harm than good in the long run.
  • Jim De VilleJim De Ville Posts: 16,097
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    Dixon wrote: »
    None of us know what is going through the mind of a Chariman when he hires a manager, so it can never ne proved a none white player was not hired because he's not white!

    I'm sure there are racist people at the top of football, just like there is any anyother walk of life.
    But we're talking about a multi billion pound industry in which everyone is desperate for success and the finacial rewards that come with it. If a Chairman has a choice between hiring a black guy who's the better qualified for the job but gives it to a white guy just because he's white, then the he's an idiot and holding his own club back!
    The same goes for anyother job as well!

    Things and attitudes might be changing at a slower pace than we'd like, but the only real alternative to slow change is to introduce quotas and that does more harm than good in the long run.

    I think that it's a 'subconscious' version of racism.

    Clubs have no problem employing black players, but that could be because it's become the norm. No-one bats an eyelid.

    However, could it be that chairmen are wary of taking a 'risk' in hiring a black manager? It's not the norm, so does the herd mentality kick in?

    Same with British-Asian players. A lot of managers will have played with black and white players, but an Asian player is not the norm. Is the lad really worth taking a punt on, when there are so very few precedents of success?

    I'm not sure that this is the case, it's just a suggestion. And I certainly don't have the answers.
  • Cantona07Cantona07 Posts: 56,910
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    Dixon wrote: »
    None of us know what is going through the mind of a Chariman when he hires a manager, so it can never ne proved a none white player was not hired because he's not white!

    I'm sure there are racist people at the top of football, just like there is any anyother walk of life.
    But we're talking about a multi billion pound industry in which everyone is desperate for success and the finacial rewards that come with it. If a Chairman has a choice between hiring a black guy who's the better qualified for the job but gives it to a white guy just because he's white, then the he's an idiot and holding his own club back!
    The same goes for anyother job as well!

    But those qualified black people you speak of simply dont seem to exist and thats the entire crux of the matter! Why is that? Are they not getting jobs for sinister reasons? Are they not taking coaching badges? Is there barriers to entry? Who knows, but to simply say its just a big huge coincidence that the vast majority of black players simply dont want to stay in the game is surely simplistic, and even if it is the case it certainly requires finding out.
  • DixonDixon Posts: 12,987
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    I think that it's a 'subconscious' version of racism.

    Clubs have no problem employing black players, but that could be because it's become the norm. No-one bats an eyelid.

    However, could it be that chairmen are wary of taking a 'risk' in hiring a black manager? It's not the norm, so does the herd mentality kick in?

    Same with British-Asian players. A lot of managers will have played with black and white players, but an Asian player is not the norm. Is the lad really worth taking a punt on, when there are so very few precedents of success?

    I'm not sure that this is the case, it's just a suggestion. And I certainly don't have the answers.

    There might be an element of subconscious racism, but that can nevr be proved so there's nothing that can be done about it.

    Paul Ince has failed at a number of jobs now but he's still being given chances, so that's a step forward imho.
  • Slainte MhathSlainte Mhath Posts: 340
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    Cantona07 wrote: »
    I'm not saying its racism, or even deliberate or whatever but surely we aren't really saying that there isn't an issue? Something is preventing black managers being developed and the evidence for it is the complete absence of black managers, its pretty simple. No, I'm not saying we need quotas but I am saying we need to ask the question and to look at it a bit deeper than just dismissing the entire thing based on the fact that Sol Campbell might be a bit of a tosser and be wrong in his own case.

    It's interesting reading http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19418328 since it suggests that there's a negative spiral problem that could do with being addressed - black players seeing a lack of black managers/coaches and (falsely?) correlating that with a lack of opportunities.

    For the sake of idle speculation, 20 years ago there were proportionally fewer black players in the game and if *they* didn't go into management (or did and weren't suited to it - e.g. John Barnes) in sufficient numbers then obviously there's going to be fewer black coaches/managers right now than there might have been. And if that's dissuading more recent retirees from even trying then the problem's going to seem even worse in 10 years time without anyone in the upper hierarchy of football necessarily having a problem!
  • PeePee Posts: 8,154
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    Dixon wrote: »
    There might be an element of subconscious racism, but that can nevr be proved so there's nothing that can be done about it.

    Paul Ince has failed at a number of jobs now but he's still being given chances, so that's a step forward imho.
    wow...just wow
  • DixonDixon Posts: 12,987
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    Pee wrote: »
    wow...just wow

    Jim thought Chairman might think it's a bit of a "risk" hiring black managers.
    Isn't it at least some sort of progress seeing clubs hiring Ince, even though he's failed in previous jobs?
    I'm sure he'll get another job as well.
  • Jim De VilleJim De Ville Posts: 16,097
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    Dixon wrote: »
    Jim thought Chairman might think it's a bit of a "risk" hiring black managers.
    Isn't it at least some sort of progress seeing clubs hiring Ince, even though he's failed in previous jobs?
    I'm sure he'll get another job as well.

    But this could prove the point, no?

    Ince has been in jobs before, so he's seen as less of a 'risk'. Hence, he gets more jobs, despite a fairly dismal track record.

    Fear of change is huge in football. From club chairmen to fans.

    Sometimes the status quo needs changing/challenging, especially when people are being excluded, regardless of their ability to do the job.
  • ElyanElyan Posts: 8,781
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    Andy-B wrote: »
    and, after Vieira, Terry Henry. Which says something about what Wenger thought of Campbell's leadership qualities.

    It also highlights Wenger's blindness to the colour of a man's face. The overwhelming majority of people in football are just the same when it comes to these things.

    I'm positive that there is absolutely no way Campbell was held back or excluded in any way throughout his football career because he is black - and he is completely out of order for suggesting it.
  • Jamesp84Jamesp84 Posts: 31,040
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    Hasn't it been suggested in the past that Campbell was never vocal in the dressing room, always quite shy and reserved?

    Not that that means he should never be considered as a captain, but managers at all levels tend to favour those who are more outgoing.
  • Ultra MagnusUltra Magnus Posts: 2,632
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    For the sake of idle speculation, 20 years ago there were proportionally fewer black players in the game and if *they* didn't go into management (or did and weren't suited to it - e.g. John Barnes) in sufficient numbers then obviously there's going to be fewer black coaches/managers right now than there might have been. And if that's dissuading more recent retirees from even trying then the problem's going to seem even worse in 10 years time without anyone in the upper hierarchy of football necessarily having a problem!

    Thank you for this. I tried writing much the same earlier but wasn't happy so deleted it; you've done it in a very concise and clear manner.

    The vast bulk of current managers in professional English football were active as players pre-2000 and the increasing ethnic diversification of the game. Theoretically, we should start seeing more black managers in the next 10 years.
  • Tal'shiarTal'shiar Posts: 2,290
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    Cantona07 wrote: »
    Historically we are a British country too but it doesnt stop the PL being loaded with foreign managers. There is clearly an issue somewhere because given the number of top black players there are by the law of averages there would be a few who would go on to be high profile managers



    That may be so but it doesnt address the overall issue.

    There is only an issue if lots of black players desire to move up but are stopped for a reason not related to ability to do the job. Then there is a problem. (more than just 1 say). Why are there not more white rappers? why are there not more white soul singers? why are there not more British people interested in baseball or basketball?

    Could also consider that some of those non national players who seek to be managers go to different countries to do that. I think part of the issue is people seem to think the EPL is the be all and end all, and everyone must want to play or be a part of it. I suspect lots of ex-players who seek to go on further consider other places, perhaps better ones overall.

    (And lets face it, only a suicidal person wants to be the England manager, maybe black people are smart enough to see that elephant pit of a job that it is, you can never please the masses in there haha)
  • Andy-BAndy-B Posts: 6,800
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    Tal'shiar wrote: »
    There is only an issue if lots of black players desire to move up but are stopped for a reason not related to ability to do the job. )

    In Campbell's case that would include (a) not having any coaching qualifications (b) not having any coaching experience, and (c) not applying for any jobs.

    Clearly football is racist against this football multimillionaire.
  • Jamesp84Jamesp84 Posts: 31,040
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    Andy-B wrote: »
    In Campbell's case that would include (a) not having any coaching qualifications (b) not having any coaching experience, and (c) not applying for any jobs.

    Clearly football is racist against this football multimillionaire.

    :D

    I do think the points Cantona makes a few posts up are very much worthy of further debate and investigation, however Campbell doesn't do himself any favours in the way he comes across.
  • DixonDixon Posts: 12,987
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    But this could prove the point, no?

    Ince has been in jobs before, so he's seen as less of a 'risk'. Hence, he gets more jobs, despite a fairly dismal track record.

    For a Chairman to see it as less of a risk to hire a failed black manager than to hire one for his first job would be a bizzare way of thinking!
  • Cantona07Cantona07 Posts: 56,910
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    Dixon wrote: »
    For a Chairman to see it as less of a risk to hire a failed black manager than to hire one for his first job would be a bizzare way of thinking!

    Thats not a race issue though, the same managers tend to get recycled at the expense of up and coming candidates regardless.
  • DixonDixon Posts: 12,987
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    But this could prove the point, no?

    Ince has been in jobs before, so he's seen as less of a 'risk'. Hence, he gets more jobs, despite a fairly dismal track record.

    For a Chairman to see it as less of a risk to hire a failed black manager than to hire one for his first job would be a bizzare way of thinking!

    I'd like to throw this into the pot.
    We know that Ken Bates is very right wing with his politics. I don't know if he's a racist, but he's made comments about 'London no longer being London' due to it's racial mix. It was a long time ago, but i'm sure i also read that he was a supporter of Enoch Powell.
    However, this was the same man who made Gullit the first Black manager in the Premier League.
    Ruthless, successful bussiness people tend to hire who they think is THE best person for the job.
  • Jim De VilleJim De Ville Posts: 16,097
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    Dixon wrote: »
    For a Chairman to see it as less of a risk to hire a failed black manager than to hire one for his first job would be a bizzare way of thinking!

    Yes, it is 'bizarre'. It doesn't mean that it's not true (it may well not be, I'm just speculating).

    Ince is a part of the establishment. He's captained England, played for some of the biggest clubs around, and has managed in the Premier League. He's possibly not seen as a 'risk', in the same way that Jason Roberts (as an example) might be. However, Shearer and Adams were both given high-profile jobs, on the basis of their 'name'.

    Nobody is queuing up to take Henry, as their manager, when he retires. Why's that?

    The fact that Ince had to start in League 2, whilst Shearer and Adams started in the Premier League shows the difference.
  • Cantona07Cantona07 Posts: 56,910
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    Dixon wrote: »
    For a Chairman to see it as less of a risk to hire a failed black manager than to hire one for his first job would be a bizzare way of thinking!

    I'd like to throw this into the pot.
    We know that Ken Bates is very right wing with his politics. I don't know if he's a racist, but he's made comments about 'London no longer being London' due to it's racial mix. It was a long time ago, but i'm sure i also read that he was a supporter of Enoch Powell.
    However, this was the same man who made Gullit the first Black manager in the Premier League.
    Ruthless, successful bussiness people tend to hire who they think is THE best person for the job.

    Then you must ask why black players are not entering the coaching process in order to become "the best person for the job"?

    Look at Sir Alex Ferguson at Man Utd. In 30 years at the club he has had a tremendous number of players who worked under him go on to become managers, yet of all the black players he managed we are talking about only really Paul Ince going into management (Viv Anderson was for a bit i guess). Are we really saying that all these tremendous number of white players were inspired to go into management yet none of the black guys fancied it? Does that not seem at least a little bit odd?

    Im not finger pointing, i don't pretend to have the answers but some of the attempts to avoid asking the questions in this thread seem completely alien to me.
  • jeffiner1892jeffiner1892 Posts: 14,212
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    Cantona07 wrote: »
    But those qualified black people you speak of simply dont seem to exist and thats the entire crux of the matter! Why is that? Are they not getting jobs for sinister reasons? Are they not taking coaching badges? Is there barriers to entry? Who knows, but to simply say its just a big huge coincidence that the vast majority of black players simply dont want to stay in the game is surely simplistic, and even if it is the case it certainly requires finding out.

    According to David James they're not taking the badges.

    Obviously as you say, the question is WHY they're not taking them.
  • Andy-BAndy-B Posts: 6,800
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    To paraphrase Breaking Bad: Better call Sol!
  • Sabre92Sabre92 Posts: 726
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    The fact that Ince had to start in League 2, whilst Shearer and Adams started in the Premier League shows the difference.

    Adams started out at Wycombe, also at the time a League 2 club.

    Shearer was brought in by the club where he attained legend status to try and get them out of trouble and very much an exceptional case as very few players are held in such regard as he was at Newcastle.

    In reality very few British managers break into the Premier League without any experience of lower league (look at Rodgers, Moyes, Bruce), and those that do are generally guys who have been involved in the backroom staff or promoted from being a player such as Sherwood or Monk. That's just the general culture that exists of being afraid to give young managers chances at the top level, regardless of race.
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