DS Forums

 
 

Keep It Simple


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 19-03-2009, 20:59
woolfynorm
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 296

I have read with interest the debate about deleting files. I remember the days of changes associated with the 9200 and how it eventually become a breeze to use by non techies, i.e. my wife! This feature is a must have. To have to remember what you have watched and go back and delete later is a non starter. For anyone "upgrading" from a 9200 to a HDR will see this as a significant loss of a feature. I don't care about the hard disk graph being 100% accurate!
I'm somewhat bemused at why HUMAX haven't just ported the best bits from the 9200 with improvements to the HDR. Making it look and feel like a computer, file manager etc is great for the techies but a switch off for non techies. I love it, but my wife (major user) will take some convincing. I'll be keeping the 9200 along side for the foreseeable future, until updates improve some basis fuctions. HUMAX don't loose sight of your simple users requirements!!
woolfynorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 19-03-2009, 22:53
awo1949
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Co. Donegal
Posts: 797
@woolfynorm

I agree with your sentiment. KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid!) is a very good maxim.

For what it's worth, I suspect what happenned is that in the very first release, "Delete" worked immediately but Humax discovered a serious problem with that when a recording was taking place (see here). Humax then rushed out a fix for OTA update before boxes hit the streets (and preinstalled it in later hardware). The fix was the simple expedient of disabling delete during recording. With any luck, Humax would have since found a proper fix for the original problem (they've had enough time) and we'll get sensible delete fucntionality in the long awaited update. This is just me reading the runes, so take it all with a pinch of salt.
awo1949 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2009, 23:54
NickF22
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 216
I find it amazing that TiVo has been able to do this since launch in 2000 / 2001. Surely it's part of a test script for any PVR?
NickF22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2009, 07:17
Nikodemus
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Southampton
Posts: 41
I find it amazing that TiVo has been able to do this since launch in 2000 / 2001. Surely it's part of a test script for any PVR?
Sadly, it seems the lessons of Tivo have been largely ignored in this country

The Tivo functionality and interface remain the standard all other PVR's should (but don't) aspire to.

Are you listening Humax?

Regards to all

Nick
Nikodemus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2009, 08:25
b33k34
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 107
The Tivo functionality and interface remain the standard all other PVR's should (but don't) aspire to.
Indeed. Partly though this is due to a completely different use case being designed for by Tivo - that you would ONLY watch recorded programmes. The whole Tivo interface is designed around making picking programmes to record and watching them as simple as possible. Live TV is there but fairly deep
Humax, and all other PVRS start with live TV and add on recording. This comes, in part, by being driven by the EPG.

Tivo's change in world view must be seen as too great a change for the average user. Once you've made the switch however the idea of watching live seems very odd.
b33k34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2009, 09:54
son_t
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Fife
Posts: 4,038
Sadly, it seems the lessons of Tivo have been largely ignored in this country

Nick
This is all because TiVo pulled out of the UK (not really having established in the first place) and never have looked to return.

You all have to remember that TiVo protect their technical and intellectual properties, and hence make it hard for other manufacturers to go down such 'TiVo' route (implementing TiVo innovations)...

Some technology have been slowly copied (for example Season Pass turned into Sky's Series Link and into Freeview+ Series Record, etc) but many other innovative aspects have not (e.g. suggestions). And so Freeview PVRs and Freesat PVRs have to work with technology that have (and for the platform they are on) and with no royalty or licensing fees to pay (to others), etc, etc...

Name me a box that is TiVo like without being a TiVo, in this or any other country... Even Sky+ is nowhere near TiVo... The closest you will ever get to TiVo would be to build a PVR using a PC! A CE PVR that comes close to the TiVo would cost more than the Humax HDR... and there will be no market for it... just like when TiVo came to the UK in 2000 costing around £500 + £200 for a Lifetime subscription...
son_t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2009, 10:34
dougk
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 346
[quote=son_t;31435297]
You all have to remember that TiVo protect their technical and intellectual properties, and hence make it hard for other manufacturers to go down such 'TiVo' route (implementing TiVo innovations)...
QUOTE]

There would be nothing stopping Humax licencincg some of these technologies from TiVO for UK machines though, I am sure that if TIVO are not interested in the UK market they would licence said technologies for reasonable sums?

If Humax can implement these and provide the "BEST" PVR possible then the expenditure would be easily regained.

Still doesn't reolve the stupidity of not being able to delete when you want to - its not much to ask is it and if the 9200T with its older , slower technology can manage it the HDR should.
dougk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2009, 12:07
Nikodemus
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Southampton
Posts: 41
I may be wrong, but it appears to me that Sky drove Tivo out of the uk by coying enough of the Tivo features into Sky plus and marketing that with all the resources at their disposal. There originally existed a partnership between Tivo & Sky, which Sky went back on when they introduced Sky Plus. This is the main reason Tivo dumped the UK. This has not been the case in the US where Tivo thrive. Just one more reason to hate Sky

Kind regards

Nick
Nikodemus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2009, 12:48
son_t
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Fife
Posts: 4,038
There would be nothing stopping Humax licencincg some of these technologies from TiVO for UK machines though, I am sure that if TIVO are not interested in the UK market they would licence said technologies for reasonable sums?
There were rumours that TiVo were returning to the UK, a while ago, but obviously they haven't. The interesting thing about this rumour is/was that Humax were going to make the TiVo boxes...

I'm not sure where the problem lies with the 'licencing' route - with TiVo or with the other manufacturers, but no one has done so... And again it would go back to the argument that if you opened a dialogue with TiVo for some of their technology, then you might has well just build a TiVo!

If Humax can implement these and provide the "BEST" PVR possible then the expenditure would be easily regained.
Again, you will have to consider the base technology - i.e. the platform such UK PVRs have to be made to work with. If Freeview+/Freesat+'s technology or facility is not there (e.g. suggestions a la TiVo) then manufacturers are unlikely to implement this facility...

Back to cost of the BEST PVR... If there's no one willing to spend £500 for the BEST PVR, then no one will make one! Are you willing to pay £500? Will a manufacturer be able to sell more than 5000 of these BEST PVRs at £500 a shot?

At the end of the day, mass consumers are not bothered about 'best', they are bothered about 'cost'... Manufacturers are not bothered about producing 'best' products, they are interested in making boxes that 'sell'.
son_t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2009, 15:44
Caz42
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,805
I'm somewhat bemused at why HUMAX haven't just ported the best bits from the 9200 with improvements to the HDR. Making it look and feel like a computer, file manager etc is great for the techies but a switch off for non techies. I love it, but my wife (major user) will take some convincing. I'll be keeping the 9200 along side for the foreseeable future, until updates improve some basis fuctions. HUMAX don't loose sight of your simple users requirements!!
I'm shocked that anyone thinks this box is complicated. I really don't think you have to be technically minded at all to use the Humax. Like your wife, I'm female, have no technical experience whatsoever and I haven't even opened the Manual. I think if you sit down with it for a good half hour, press all the buttons, see what they do.....then your average 12 year old could be operating it with ease.

I think some women are frightened of anything technical and think they will never be able to operate it. However, this tends to be those women who have never lived on their own and who ask their husband to do the simplest thing, like wire a plug for example...... but there aint many of those women left nowadays, believe me!!
Caz42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2009, 15:56
son_t
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Fife
Posts: 4,038
then your average 12 year old could be operating it with ease.
Good point - kids have always been able to operate the VCR while the parents didn't have a clue!

Next time someone asks about not being able to delete, suggest they hand over the remote to a 12 year old. You probably get the answer: 'Of course you can't delete! The box is recording - duh!'
son_t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2009, 16:23
Tern
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,324
Good point - kids have always been able to operate the VCR while the parents didn't have a clue!
Something of a cliche and, I believe disproved by research.

Next time someone asks about not being able to delete, suggest they hand over the remote to a 12 year old. You probably get the answer: 'Of course you can't delete! The box is recording - duh!'
Yes, we're all aware of the circumstances under which the box will not delete. Determining that is not the issue.

What we would like is a system that is a little bit more professional.

It's not much to ask for when virtually every other PVR can do it and wh have paid around £300 for the box.
Tern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2009, 17:57
KAR 120C
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: London
Posts: 26
I'm shocked that anyone thinks this box is complicated. I really don't think you have to be technically minded at all to use the Humax. Like your wife, I'm female, have no technical experience whatsoever and I haven't even opened the Manual. I think if you sit down with it for a good half hour, press all the buttons, see what they do.....then your average 12 year old could be operating it with ease.

I think some women are frightened of anything technical and think they will never be able to operate it. However, this tends to be those women who have never lived on their own and who ask their husband to do the simplest thing, like wire a plug for example...... but there aint many of those women left nowadays, believe me!!
Theres no way its complex, Just annoying. For example, Presseing a number of buttons just to carry out one function.
KAR 120C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2009, 18:06
awo1949
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Co. Donegal
Posts: 797
I'm technical and my wife isn't, although she is competent with technical things. The VCR always defeated me and, in the end, I got my wife to set up recordings. The reason? I thought I knew what I was doing so made mistakes which, with a VCR, are easy and not obvious. I lost a a number of recordings and made a number of unintended ones. But my wife, being less sure, took more care in what she did. The HDR is different, I can breeze through that without making any mistakes that aren't immediately obvious and correctable. My wife can operate it OK but takes a lot longer over anything she does. I don't think she's ever tried to delete anything though, that's my job.
awo1949 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2009, 18:11
Grannygrunt
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 2,424
I'm shocked that anyone thinks this box is complicated. I really don't think you have to be technically minded at all to use the Humax. Like your wife, I'm female, have no technical experience whatsoever and I haven't even opened the Manual. I think if you sit down with it for a good half hour, press all the buttons, see what they do.....then your average 12 year old could be operating it with ease.

I think some women are frightened of anything technical and think they will never be able to operate it. However, this tends to be those women who have never lived on their own and who ask their husband to do the simplest thing, like wire a plug for example...... but there aint many of those women left nowadays, believe me!!
I agree with you Caz! There are women who cope with anything technical or new just as easy as the guys do. I have used PVR's for a number of years, and so find the Hummy very easy to use, I also can put all my av equipment together, understand scarts. HDMI connections, am currently testing on my PC the new Windows 7 OS, can change plugs etc, etc.
I also put all my stand together without any help and my computer desk, do all my own decorating etc. so don't think we women aren't capable.
I even use a universal remote and program all that as well.

It's amazing what you learn when you want to learn it, and don't want or need a guy to do it for you!

GG
Grannygrunt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2009, 19:43
woolfynorm
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 296

I agree with you Caz! There are women who cope with anything technical or new just as easy as the guys do. I have used PVR's for a number of years, and so find the Hummy very easy to use, I also can put all my av equipment together, understand scarts. HDMI connections, am currently testing on my PC the new Windows 7 OS, can change plugs etc, etc.
I also put all my stand together without any help and my computer desk, do all my own decorating etc. so don't think we women aren't capable.
I even use a universal remote and program all that as well.

It's amazing what you learn when you want to learn it, and don't want or need a guy to do it for you!

GG
I didn't intend this to be a swipe at the ladies, there are some men that struggle too! My point is the HUMAX 9200 has been 3 years in development with many changes from the original and in terms of useablity is far more intuative than the HDR. The menus are "chunckier" but much easier to read and watching and deleting programmes is a breeze. Yes the HDR is sexier, and more PC like but still has a way to go to catch back up with the 9200. However that's progress??

Woolfynorm
woolfynorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-03-2009, 10:33
White-Knight
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,494
The only thing confusing about the HDR is the manual which is rubbish!

A clearer manual that covered all the features and not just some would make learning the HDR much easier.

Also, as said elsewhere, from those of us who want more features such as recording destination control (to keep everything tidy in sub divided folders) why not produce 2 menu options, simple and advanced?

That way those who want an ultra simple basic box can have it and those who want advanced features such as the ability to get the box to record into custom categorised folders or other features such as some of the currently more advanced ones like USB transfer, can have those in the advanced menu so everyone gets what they want without anyone finding the box too hard or too simple to use.
White-Knight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-03-2009, 13:36
b33k34
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 107
The only thing confusing about the HDR is the manual which is rubbish!

A clearer manual that covered all the features and not just some would make learning the HDR much easier.
The fact that people see fit to complain about the manual is an indication that the UI is poor. It's always been my view that if a UI is properly designed that you never *need* to look at the manual. A device should have controls that are clearly labelled and logically laid out. There are some of us who keep harping on about this but Tivo got this stuff right - it's the inconsistencies in the Hummy interface that are frustrating:
The worst example for me is that back/exit/left do not work consistently in all menus. There are some where back will take the menu off screen, others where exit is needed, some where pressing left navigate back. This stuff should have been set out by the UI designer and spotted in testing.

(I am a geek and I do read manuals but only after trying to work something without)
b33k34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-03-2009, 21:37
Caz42
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,805
The fact that people see fit to complain about the manual is an indication that the UI is poor. It's always been my view that if a UI is properly designed that you never *need* to look at the manual. A device should have controls that are clearly labelled and logically laid out. There are some of us who keep harping on about this but Tivo got this stuff right - it's the inconsistencies in the Hummy interface that are frustrating:
The worst example for me is that back/exit/left do not work consistently in all menus. There are some where back will take the menu off screen, others where exit is needed, some where pressing left navigate back. This stuff should have been set out by the UI designer and spotted in testing.

(I am a geek and I do read manuals but only after trying to work something without)
Agree. I think the reason men are often seen to be more technical than women is because they generally don't read manuals........(hence the RTFM statement us women often yell at them ) However, the result of this is that men then work out how to operate gadgets through trial and error and this is why they come out on top. When you read a manual you generally only remember how to do something after reading it a number of times, whereas when you press a button and have no idea what it does, the resulting action generally stays with you after only one attempt......just the way the brain works and men either seem to pick up on this better than women or it's the ego thing and they don't want to be seen as needing the manual........personally I think it's more the latter

This is only my opinion after watching men over as number of years but I think I'm pretty close to the mark. Women generally make a cuppa and sit down with the manual. If you watch women they have manual in one hand while pressing remote with other but when they think they have it sussed, they usually haven't and have to refer back to manual next time they want to repeat the action.

There are of course many women with male brains and vice versa so this isn't always the case.....just my little observations
Caz42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-03-2009, 22:30
woolfynorm
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 296

I started this thread to prompt HUMAX not to forget what they have learnt in development of the 9200, which over the three years of development is very good at recording watching and housekeeping TV programmes. No, it's not a media centre. In moving to the HDR HUMAX seem to have throw the baby out with the bathwater in that in some areas they have moved backwards, ref deleting files.

My only plea was to keep an eye on the users, I have only had the HDR for a week but have found many user issues which were corrected in the development of the 9200. I have no issues with using the HDR as I have a stong computer background but folders and directories are alien to many people.

Any way I rest my case!

Woolfynorm.
woolfynorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2009, 08:00
Tern
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,324
I started this thread to prompt HUMAX not to forget what they have learnt in development of the 9200, which over the three years of development is very good at recording watching and housekeeping TV programmes. No, it's not a media centre. In moving to the HDR HUMAX seem to have throw the baby out with the bathwater in that in some areas they have moved backwards, ref deleting files.

My only plea was to keep an eye on the users, I have only had the HDR for a week but have found many user issues which were corrected in the development of the 9200. I have no issues with using the HDR as I have a stong computer background but folders and directories are alien to many people.
I absolutely agree.

I bought this device as a PVR, not an oversized MP3 player!

As for displaying stills, it won't.

I have a large quantity of jpgs that display perfectly happily on PC, mac and linux systems but the Humax just says it doesn't recognise' the file format. Lame or what?

I haven't reported this bug because I only tried it out of interest and would rather they got on with correcting the clunkinesses in the PVR UI than fannied around with mp3s and jpgs.
Tern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2009, 08:09
woolfynorm
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 296

I absolutely agree.

I bought this device as a PVR, not an oversized MP3 player!

As for displaying stills, it won't.

I have a large quantity of jpgs that display perfectly happily on PC, mac and linux systems but the Humax just says it doesn't recognise' the file format. Lame or what?

I haven't reported this bug because I only tried it out of interest and would rather they got on with correcting the clunkinesses in the PVR UI than fannied around with mp3s and jpgs.
I noticed that yesterday, files that play fine on my PC won't display on the HDR. And there needs to be an auto rotate option too??

Woolfynorm.
woolfynorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2009, 11:06
bryhhh
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: North West UK
Posts: 292
Making it look and feel like a computer, file manager etc is great for the techies but a switch off for non techies.
I disagree. I'm a techie (Software / Database developer & Systems Admin), and I'm a believer that all software should have a simple UI.

A PVR doesn't need a file manager, nor does it need a file manager with edit mode. There is nothing the HDR does that can't be accomplished with a 'simple' UI.

The HDR UI might look pretty, and is probably one of the best looking UIs available today, but from a usability point of view, I regret to have to say, it's awful!

The prime example is, when you want to delete a programme, it takes six button presses on the remote control (assuming you have already navigated to the programme you want to delete from the media list)

e.g.

Highlight programme
Press 'OK'
Press down arrow
Press down arrow
Press 'OK'
Press left arrow
Press 'OK'.

This operation should take no more than 2 button presses. As much as it pains me to admit it, the Sky+ UI is far superior to the HDR. e.g. to delete a programme, simply press yellow (If a programme is marked as keep, you need to press OK to confirm).

There are many other examples too, but I'm sure they have all been flogged to death on here already.

The Humax HDR has a lot of potential, but like the PVR-9200T, the UI is terrible. I'm quietly hoping that the delay in the update to the HDR's software is because Humax are working on a complete re-design (version 2.0.x) of the UI. - although I'm not going to hold my breath.
bryhhh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2009, 11:33
Tern
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,324
The Humax HDR has a lot of potential, but like the PVR-9200T, the UI is terrible. I'm quietly hoping that the delay in the update to the HDR's software is because Humax are working on a complete re-design (version 2.0.x) of the UI. - although I'm not going to hold my breath.
I am, similarly, not optimistic about getting much improvement in the UI.

The fact that they've made such a pig's ear of it rather implies that they just don't have the UI specialist(s) they need to do the job properly.

If the 9200 is similarly bad (and assuming this fact was aired in the various forums) it shows that they either don't listen to their customers on this issue or simply don't have the expertise to do the job well.

Disappointing but it's still a good box that does the job it was intended to.
Tern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2009, 12:02
awo1949
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Co. Donegal
Posts: 797
I agree that the UI is very clunky and I would like to see improvements in it (but don't expect to get them). However, there is a certain consistency to it (and some inconsistencies which do make it a bad UI). A lot of things start with pressing the OK button. This gives context dependent options. Select one and, depending what it is, you may get another set of options. That's what makes it so clunky, but for some people it may be easier - they don't have to remember which button to press and fumble around a (poorly laid out) remote control looking for it. What's missing are the "keyboard shortcuts".
awo1949 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 16:02.