I think that's a sensible decision if made in the knowledge of the issues involved. And there's certainly no shortage of that in this thread .

Yes, Nigel, but it will very likely be the TS experts that a judge take more notice of than you.


No I'm not. Stop putting words in my mouth.

I said I don't give much credence to your opinion and would like to hear the TS viewpoint.


Now who's making ludicrous statements. Every one else on this thread is managing to debate in an adult manner without having a hissy shouting fit.


Nigel, are you out of you mind?

Are you really suggesting that putting a new mains cable on the box would cost more than £200?

I think you need to go and have a little think about this before you embarrass yourself further.

Except that we weren't actually discussing the safety certification we were discussing whether a manufacturer or retailer would be able to get away with refusing to honour a warranty because the plug had been changed.

I would want to hear a qualified opinion on that rather than rely on the opinion of someone who repairs boxes. I've heard some utter rubbish from repair personel in the past and I have to say that Nigel's opinon strikes me as just that: an unqualified opinion.

So who would you consider qualified?, if not a professional service engineer, and not a manufacturers representative.

Perhaps I should explain further what happens:

No service is allowed on in warranty Freesat boxes, for Alba boxes the retailer replaces the box and returns the old one for credit - the returned box is checked, and if found to be covered by warranty a credit note is issued. If the plug has been chopped off, or it has been tampered with in any other way, credit won't be issued - so the retailer is out of pocket for the cost of the box (which would be his own stupid fault, for not checking it).

As far as I'm aware Humax send out an exchange unit, and collect the old one - presumably if the plug is found to be chopped off, Humax would bill the customer?.

If it's something I can do the warranty job on (such as a Sony TV), there's no problem over a chopped off plug, and I can make the choice to repair it under warranty or not.

Biggest problem is washing machines etc. - these often go under worktops, and the plug need to go through a small hole in the worktop. The manufacturers do the service directly, so we have no say eiother way - and can only advise the customer that cutting the plug off will void the warranty.

I guess we have to accept that this is the way it is and it is not going to change but it might be nice to understand the reasons.
Doing a quick check around my house of all the consumer electronics we have I note that it is only Humax boxes and old CRT TVs that have fixed mains connections. The only exception to this is my AV receiver - which is rated at over 650W max power consumption.
This led me to suspect that there is some rule on the level of power consumption that triggers a switch to fixed connections. Other high-power devices like washing machines and dish washers also tend to have fixed mains connections with moulded plugs, but kettles (upto 3KW) don't - another contradiction. However, I don't think any of the Humax STBs can be considered high-power devices.
It is also interesting to note that in the realm of computer equipment it is exceedingly rare to find a fixed connection although most uses the larger three-hole mains connector.

A trading standards officer or a solicitor or barrister specialising in consumer law.

The reason that TS come under the heading of 'qualified' is that they have access to legal advice and frequently get involved in persuading shops and manufacturers to change their ways.

How much a manufacturer can get away with in not honouring a waranty because of 'modifications' is an interesting point but not at all obvious.

Without reference to case law it's unclear (no matter how obvious it may appear to you) to what extent a judge would support the consumer in making changes to their own property.

For example, we've all (almost) taken the sheets of film off our boxes.

Then, suppose that someone buys a dress and raises the hem a cm. If a shop refused a refund beause the fabric faded would a judge agree that that was reasonable?

If a box is faulty and you refuse to replace it because the plug has been changed and I take you to court (which, believe me, I would - dependant on TS advice), would the judge say that as I'm made a modification that increased the cost of repair (at some point) I was not entitled to redress or would he say that the mod was irrelevant to the fault and that the extra cost was an expense that you would have to bear?

I don't know the answer.

Indeed, no one can know for certain without case law.

But a TS officer or other qualified professional will have access to legal opinion that should be persuasive to either side of any dispute.

So I'm afraid that your opinion remains, as I said before, just that: an unqualified opinion.

I feel quite sad that you have now lost a 2 year warranty on a brand new product......only because you had to change the plug. I got my tv unit last year and the plug on the Humax (bought last month) wouldn't go through the hole in back of mine either. I was desperate to get my recorder up and running so I just put it round the side of the black glass unit, fully intending to fix it at a later date......by cutting off and replacing the plug. Thankfully I haven't got around to it yet and of course I now won't be doing it and it will need to stay the way it is.

The solution is of course that manufacturers need to make these plug holes bigger in the first place....... but not for one moment did I think that changing the plug would have lost my warranty, it just wouldn't have entered my thoughts!

If your unit now develops a fault you will have to pay for a repair, aren't you a bit angry about that?

Its my dads unit and hdr mine fits nice and snugly.

Caz, we have still not got a qualified opinion on this.

Don't assume that just because someone with no legal qualification states something as a fact here that that is the end of the matter.

I'm a solicitor although I don't have anything to do with Trading Standards type of work.

I do think personally (without seeing any precedence pointing towards one view or another) that a judge would be likely to accept an argument of caution in relation to staff safety in the current climate.

However, in the absence of precedence, I'm sceptical that he'd accept that a complete replacement at the customers expense was necessary when the lead could easily be checked for safety.

After all Health and Safety experts regularly visit work premises and test kettle leads, microwave, computer leads etc for electrical safety as a matter of routine and with a test that lasts seconds and costs next to nothing.

Therefore my own personal view is that in a court of law its likely a judge would disallow any charge relating to the routine replacement of the lead when a simple safety test would have sufficed.

I'm also sceptical of the warranty position put forward by Humax in relation to the changing of the plug. I'd think Humax would have a hard job asserting replacing a damaged power lead plug was an "unauthorised alteration to the product". All exclusion clauses are subject to a test of reasonableness and I personally (without knowledge of any precedent in this area) think Humax would have a hard job asserting this clause was reasonable if insisting its meaning extended that far).

Post deleted

I'm glad I'm using mine on a 13Amp X 4 distribution socket and left the mains plug intact. However as the power input specification for the HDR is 90-250 Volts 50/60 Hz it begs the question is it reasonable to use a BS1362 plug for a puropse that it was not designed for example 115 Volts and 60 Hz?

My solution would have been that - to use an extention lead (even one with just a single socket) from the wall to the inside of the cabinet, taking the plug off the extension lead - cost less than £5.

BUt as the debate has continued, if a person is deemed qualified to test electrical safety applicances by doing a one day PAT course then these people should be deemed qualified enough to cut of a moulded plug and replcae it with a normal one?

I think most people would disagree that it costs "next to nothing" local schools here have to pay something like £22 per item for an LA approved testing service.

You will also find that it's not "Health & Safety experts" who do it, they wouldn't be qualified to do so, unless specifically trained - it's nothing to do with Health & Safety training. On a completely unrelated subject (martial arts - don't ask!), I'm currently doing an H&S course.

BTW, there's also no legal obligation to do PAT testing on electrical goods, it's a fairy tale - check the H&S Executive website.


Again, for (I think the third time?), it's not an H&S issue, it's the fact that it no longer meets the certification it carries.

I've never seen a service manual for any Freesat box (do they even exist?), but EVERYTHING that does have a manual has specific parts listed, which are specially marked as critical safety components which MUST be replaced with the correct manufacturers part. One so marked is always the mains lead/plug assembly.

But regardless of this long thread, chopping a moulded plug off voids the warranty, if you wish to do so, then try and persue it via the courts, anyone is of course perfectly free to do so.

Incidently, amongst many other things I do, PAT testing is one of them - and I would fail an item that should have a moulded plug on, if it had been chopped off.

How would you know, a quick look round found a new table lamp from Next and it's got a standard BS1363 plug on it as does an almost new Kenwood can opener from Argos, a Delta 3Kw electric kettle, a bifinnet toaster, a kenwood smoothie maker, four touch bedsite lights from B&Q, a revlon hairdryer, a hometek slow cooker from Tesco. I could go on. There is no legal requirement that a fitted plug has to be moulded to the appliance flex. It simply has to be correctly fitted and to BS1363. Perhaps you would like to publish (suspect it's mythical ) of appliances that come originally with a moulded plug and those that don't. By your reckoning around 80% of the appliance would fail your PAT test. Interestingly some do have pat test stickers on anyway (They came from my late fathers nursing home). Perhaps you might like to reconsider your ridicolous statement and stop digging a bigger and bigger hole to fall in.
Last edited by grahamlthompson : 27-03-2009 at 17:14

Quote

Trading standards legislation in both the UK and Ireland requires that all normal electrical goods sold in either country should be fitted with a BS 1363 / IS 401[1] plug.

from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_1363

and from the dti here

http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file38628.pdf

THE SAFETY REQUIREMENTS
Part I relates to any plug, socket or adaptor ordinarily intended for domestic use at a
voltage of not less than 200 volts, to any fuse link suitable for a standard plug1 and to
any cartridge fuse link suitable for use in any plug or adaptor (regulation 4(1)).
Regulations 4(1)-(2) and Schedule 1 refer to excluded items. Schedule 1 of the
Regulations is reproduced in Annex A of this guidance. Regulation 4(3) deals with
plugs and sockets inside or forming an integral part of electrical equipment.
The terms plug, socket, adaptor, fuse link, cartridge fuse link, and standard plug are
defined in regulation 3. A standard plug is one intended to connect with a socket
outlet with dimensions as specified in BS1363.
Regulation 5 prohibits the supply of electrical devices specified in regulation 4 unless
they comply with the requirements of regulation 6.
Regulation 6 requires a standard plug to contain a fuse complying with BS1362 and
to have been approved by a notified body under regulation 8. Regulation 6 requires
other devices covered by Part I to comply with regulation 10.
1 Standard plug is defined as a plug intended to connect to a socket outlet compliant with BS1363 (regulation 3)


This ones interesting the standard charge for PAT testing includes replacing a defective plug

http://www.ukpattester.co.uk/Price.php

Moral never employ Mr Goodwin to PAT test anything
Last edited by grahamlthompson : 27-03-2009 at 18:07

Presumably, if it is a warranty repair, it is just being returned to the customer. It is not being sold. I think it a pity that the HDR does not come with a detachable power lead.

It would appear that the days when electrical appliances never came with plugs have passed!

Yes it's now law that electrical appliances come with a plug fitted.

This is wrong, moulded plugs are used because the process can be automated. Fitting a standard BS1363 plug is labour intensive but entirely within the law and is used by smaller companies. I fail to see how either process affects whether or not a suitable fuse is fitted.

This comment comes from an individual who states that as a so called PAT tester that he would refuse a certificate on a perfectly safe appliance fitted with an approved BS1363 plig correctly wired simply on the grounds that it was not fitted with the original plug. This is a totally indefensible statement. Does anyone know how to appeal against a pat certificate refusal ?
Last edited by grahamlthompson : 28-03-2009 at 10:15

I know that was probably tongue-in-cheek, but rather too much emphasis has been given to PAT testing in this thread and it's probably worthwhile debunking some possible misconceptions.

To answer the question. You simply remove the failure sticker and have the equipment re-checked. The reason it's as simple as that? There is no such thing as an official PAT test.

The reason PAT testing has become so commonplace is because an employer has a duty of care to their employees with regard to the safety of electrical equipment. There are many ways in which thay can discharge that duty of care and, perhaps more significantly, demonstrate that they have done so. One way is to employ a competent person to check the equipment and decide whether it is safe or not. That decision is entirely at the discretion of the tester. There is no official test and no definative set of criteria the tester should apply. Obviously, the tester should be familiar with the legal requirements and apply them correctly. If they don't, they are not a competent person.

Which brings us to the question, "Who is a competent person?" There are no particular qualifications required and no officially recognised training. It is sufficient for someone to know what they are doing, but it would be advisable for them to be able to offer evidence of that. It is the responsibility of the employer to ensure that they employ a competetent person. A number of private companies offer training in PAT testing. In the event of an incident or dispute, if an employer had employed someone with such training, they would probably be considered to have been diligent in this respect.

There are a couple of things that have come out of this thread that give me some cause for concern. They relate to what happens when you return faulty equipment under warrenty outside of the 30 day period when you would normally expect to get a new box (or refund) in return.

Between Bob_Cat's comments and Nigel Goodwin's comments there is a strong implication (I don't think it was actually stated) that the equipment you get back may not be the one you sent for repair under warranty. It is possible that you will get back a refurbished box that someone else has sent in for repair. This would explain why the manufacturer and the service centre between them are unhappy with receiving equipment for repair under warranty that is not in a saleable condition, although I doubt that would affect your right to a repair under consumer legislation.

If I combine the above with Bob_Cat's comment, "... a large number of product returns have *no* actual fault!", I start to get worried. I should make it clear at this point that I am not directing my concern at Humax in particular as I suspect this sort of thing is commonplace. My worry? I could send back a box that is perfectly good except for a simple fault (e.g. PSU failure) and get back a rogue box that didn't demonstrate a fault when tested (which is not the same thing as not having a fault). It is not uncommon for electronic equipment to demonstrate an intermittent fault, perhaps due to a component which is just out of spec but works most of the time. With computer based equipment, such a fault will often present as the box crashing every so often, but is difficult to pick up in the sort of testing that a box is likely to receive on being returned for repair.

I echo your concerns .

I have a Pace 9F3002 First batch HD box due for recall , it seems all that will happen is it will be swapped over and my box fixed by adding a couple of tie wraps.

But my HD box gives no signal out of the RF2 and needs attention to this to make the box 100% again .

I can see my box been fixed with the cable ties and been issued as a refurb only to be rejected at the point of install (if RF2 is used ) by the installer / customer , simply because the box had not been fixed correctly of ALL faults , just the one that is associated with the box

As far as I'm aware, in Humax's case, Humax send out an exchange unit via a courier, and it's swapped over - the exchange will be a refurbished unit. In the Alba case, the retailer gives the customer a new box, and returns the old one for credit.

With a Sky box (as comparison), the retailer returns the box to the service agents for repair, then installs it back at the customer when it's returned.

That sounds like it could be a long time without a box!

The repairers supposedly 'guarantee' a 48 hour turn round.