I`ve never had this issue with my Quad 33/303 amp.

Kettle leads all round.

For those who like to collect reasons given by a manufacturer for voiding their warranty, have a look at this page from the Fortec Star website. It's the download page for software updates and contains a warning to the effect that, if a user installs an update available from that page, it voids the warranty .

I put my Humax moulded plug into a multi socket extension.
My new TV filled the alcove so the multi socket extension had to be moved, anyway.

However if I had decided to cut off the moulded BS1363 plug & properly replaced it, & then was refused a guarantee claim, then I or my credit card bank would have moved to the Small Claims Court to prosecute the dealer (not the maker).
I could readily, & quickly, demonstrate my ability to correctly rewire a normal BS1263 plug, so the dealer would be very unlikely to be able to prove the rewiring was remotely relevant. The sucker would lose!

Then you walk into the shop, preferably on a busy Saturday, & loudly present your Court endorsed claim.
If he refuses to pay your bailiff will attend later & will, if refused, offer to remove enough Plasma TV to cover his costs & yours.

Often defendants fail to even attend court.

Even if the dealer won the case, the local press & if necessary blogging would cost him much more than the £300 I paid him for the box.
The press are well versed in making accurate but non defamatory reports that will be very interesting to customers.

I am not a lawyer, just a keen observer of human frailty & the consequences.

David
Last edited by SWIZZ? : 30-03-2009 at 00:25

Clearly Fortecstar is a brand to avoid.

The list of devices where I have had to upgrade the firmware is growing quite long and now includes a modem, mobile phone, GPS, camera, Freeview PVR, ADSL router(s) and 'FTA satellite receiver.

This thread is potentially a time bomb for hundreds of thousands of consumers who may have followed the instructions supplied and changed their plugs for many reasons, and the opinions expressed by those supporting this assertion require challenging in a much more open fashion.

I am awaiting responses from several letters about this.

So you're merely imagining that's how it would go, you haven't ever done so?.


Yet again, it's NOTHING to do with how well you wire the plug, merely that you have ruined the safety certification on the unit.

I thought the 33/303 used the old Bulgin 3 pin round connector?.

Never the less , it's a plug in lead - but in any case, it's not a problem on anything that old, as it's not under warranty (by a day or two ), and it was never covered by the current safety certification.

BTW - nice amp

No I think people who leave live figure of 8 plugs lying around should be banned from having/being around children.

Slightly off topic but Sony has the same sort of warnings for updates for the PS3 , yet to use the playstation shop it forces you to upgrade!

I am not sure that legally they would get away with it in court by saying if an update they as a manufacturer provided caused a problem your warranty would be void!

I've seen some warnings that seem to be aimed at indemnifying the manufacturer in the event that an update fails due to the user not following the correct procedure. Is this the case with the Sony PS3? It may also be that this is all Fortec Star intends, but their warning is not worded that way.

Well i didn't think the thread would go on this long and cause such a stir.

Ill get me coat now.

Hey! Hold on! Does your coat have a safety certificate? Has it been PAT tested? Has it been modified in any way? Perhaps you've sown on a button that came off. Are you qualified to do that?

It has been tested exstensivly on very windy days to make sure the buttons dont come undone.

Methinks that Badvok's solution would would cause more expense & strife than mine !

I suggest that all TWIN leads be wired into the apparatus. The other end of the lead should be into a special 13amp plug with a fixed nylon "earth" pin.

Perhaps it would reduce the chances of mis-wiring enough to be adopted by Humax in the HDR.

David
Last edited by SWIZZ? : 31-03-2009 at 19:46

Most two core leads have plastic earth pins on the plugs.


Again, miswiring has nothing to do with it.

There's also no way you could wire a plug on a two core lead to make it dangerous - there are only three possible ways of wiring it, two would work, one wouldn't, and one that works would blow the earth trip.

I was editing my post 89 when I ran out of time.


Methinks that Badvok's solution would would cause more expense & strife than mine !

I suggest that all TWIN leads be wired into the apparatus. The other end of the lead should be into a special 13amp plug with a fixed nylon "earth" pin.

If it was essential that live & neutral were not swapped, then the live tail could have a short metal tube crimped onto it. This would only fit into the larger than normal hole in the live pin terminal, of this special plug. This could ensure that the on/off switch was on the live line.

Perhaps it would reduce the chances of mis-wiring enough to be adopted by Humax in the HDR.

David

If installed.

Otherwise it could be, er, dangerous.

Sorry don't get you?, what do you mean by 'installed', and how could it be dangerous?.

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin:
“Most two core leads have plastic earth pins on the plugs.”

Not dangerous! I disagree.
You need to think outside the box containing the plug, the HDR & the warranty!

Not everyone has those trips. Voltages could reach other items, with earthed metal cases.
Trips don't always work.

There can be secondary hazards caused by an RCD that does trip. Someone could come to harm in the sudden darkness.

A reasonable response to finding a moulded BS plug had been replaced by a non-moulded BS plug, would be to unscrew the cap, in the presence of the customer, see that wires were correct & tight. Refit the cap while apologising to your customer, for having to check for your own safety. Less than a minute ?

Nigel, you answered my post 89, which I was editing when I ran out of time.
I think that post 91 defined a plug that could not be mis-wired.
Plastic earth pin with no possible connection is easy, but if the polarity of earth & neutral was important (in a double insulated box ?!) then it could be fixed by crimping a metal ferrule on the live lead that would only enter an oversized hole in the live pin. It would ensure that the switch worked on the live side.
Last edited by SWIZZ? : 31-03-2009 at 22:02

When did you stop beating your wife?



Edit: See post by SWIZZ for the actual enumerations of the errors in your assertion.

Then tell us how?.


I wasn't aware we had even been discussing that recently?, certainly these last few posts have nothing to do with anything specific.


Not a concern (in this case) because it can't be wired dangerously. There also can't be any voltages to reach other items due to a miswired plug on a two core lead.

Incidently, we don't have trips in the service department at all, they are of no use in that environment.


But that's of no concern to the safety of the plug, which can't possibly be wired dangerously with a two core lead.


What has that got to do with anything?.

I'll repeat, yet again, that safety is nothing whatsoever to do with this thread.

Regardless of a moulded plug or not, I wouldn't be taking a plug to pieces, because there can be no safety hazard with only a two core lead - so it would be 100% pointless.

I tell a lie actually - I WOULD refit an obviously badly wired plug, but I wouldn't randomly take all plugs to pieces.


Sorry


But would still offer no extra safety margin for a two core lead.


It's not important, and is really completely irrelevent - many modern items (those that have mains switches) often switch only the neutral wire. This on sets which pass all the required safety standards - shocked me as well - previously all sets had used double-pole mains switches for decades.

Electrical appliances sold in the UK have to comply with the Electrical Regulations (Safety) Regulations SI 3260 1994.

Compliance with this simply shows that the design meets UK standards and allows the manufacturer to mark each item with the a CE Kite mark . It is not an individual test on each piece of equipment, if so each and every one would have to have such a certificate. Part of this approval simply requires that the appliance be fitted with a BS1363 plug. To suggest that replacement of said item with a similary approved BS 1363 plug makes this compliance invalid' is perverse in the extreme. The replacement plug already has a CE mark. Taking this argument to it's logical conclusion is just like saying that an item repaired by Humax or their agents will require resubmission for type approval and that the affixed kite mark is no longer valid. In fact the kite mark can be applied by any manufacturer under a process known as self certification (Humax can say their equipment meets the regulations) of course if it does not they could be sued for any accident.

So Mr Goodwin can we have some more information from where your source of information for this safety certification comes from. So far not a single posting has been accompanied by any independent reference source
Last edited by grahamlthompson : 01-04-2009 at 08:46

You are merely quoting electrical regulations, NOT regulations for electronic goods - in the past the official body was BEAB, I've no idea who it is now (and couldn't really care less as it makes no difference who it actually is).

I'll repeat, yet again (as you seem to totally ignore any relevent points) - service manuals mark various critical safety components in the parts lists, these MUST be replaced with the exact manufacturers part in order to maintain them as safe to use in accordance witht he original testing they went through.

But it's all pretty pointless anyway, chopping a moulded plug off voids the warranty, end of story - it's not up for debate, it's just a fact.

Two core lead wired between earth and live.

No earth connection inside a double socket.

There is now a path from live mains directly to anything with an earthed metal casing sharing the faulty socket.

I know this can happen because I've seen it.


Wrong! See above.


Wrong! See above.


Wrong! See above.

(Now do you see what SWIZZ means by thinking outside the box - he tried to make it easy for you.)




Go to page one of this thread. Search for safety.

You will see that the subject is first brought up by one Nigel Goodwin who has been banging on about ever since.


But hardly surprising when the mains lead goes straight to a transformer.

Except that's a faulty of the dangerously badly wired house, NOT of the plug.

It's also NOT a direct connection, it's a connection via the unit itself, which with a switchmode PSU wil be a pretty low current one.

[/quote]

You will see that the subject is first brought up by one Nigel Goodwin who has been banging on about ever since.

[quote]

I never said any such thing, the quote is here:

"The plug/lead assembly is also a certified safety part, and cutting the moulded plug off means it no longer meets the required safety standards."

At no point have I ever suggested it's dangerous for any engineer, merely that it no longer meets the safety standards.


Except that's extremely rare, as almost everthing uses switchmode PSU's - certainly TV's and satellite receivers have hardly ever used mains transformers.