This is the one thing the apprentices have going for them in tasks, that they do not have to employ staff or hire premises / transport.

In the latest series' tasks car washing and sandwich making they should be able to undercut everyone.

Car washing is all about the cost of the labour. They had 6 or 7 on each team working for free for a whole day.

In the latest task they has to prepare food, transport it and serve it. All of which would cost a lot in the real world.

The boys lost a hundred quid but in the real world they would have lost several hundred.

Why dont the teams ever play to this strength?

Thank God someone else has noticed.

It makes me roll about laughing when Siralan tells a team 'well done' for making a couple of hundred pounds profit when they have not included the cost of half a dozen of 'Britain's Brightest Business Prospects' for two days.

If the tasks are going to continue in the practical nature of the tasks, then hiring these top exec's, lawyers, PA, HR style candidates is the wrong way to go.

The show covers the cost of transport because the teams are given vehicles. It's a tv show so certain parts of it are contrived. You can't compare a real car washing firm with one created on a tv show. The actual cost of the service and how much profit the service brings in are the key elements, that's what determines the outcome, not the cost of getting around London (most of the episodes tends to be London based).

Yes, we appreciate that but do you not see that you actually need to account for labour to determine if you have made a profit?

Not all tasks can yield a simple profit figure but for those that do I cannot recollect a single example where the candidates would have been able to pay themselves even a minimum wage for the labour they put in.

but they are apparently competing for contracts against real world companies that do - and often coming off worse.

In the car wash task they were bidding against companies who usually do it for "20 per car" and that includes parts and labour. Without the majority of that, they should be returning huge profits every task. Last night they couldnt even make selling sandwiches profitable even without transport/ labour.

These people are NOT entrepreneurs turning £200 into £400 every day.

I see your point but they're not really competing with real companies for business. It's a tv show. When they go into the company's boardroom to discuss the fees, the CEO and other people are happy to be filmed! Who knows, maybe the BBC gives out backhanders to these firms to guarantee some of them do business with the candidates. It's a tv show, it's fake, things are contrived. I doubt there's ever been a reality tv show which has been 100 percent realistic.

Don't believe me? Consider this.... Sugar's office is not even in London yet we see shots of London's skyline, shots of the city, just before we cut to scenes inside his office. Sugar hired two candidates in an earlier series - this was not mentioned in the final episode of that series. See how manufactured it all is?

I do believe you, it is clear that some of the tasks are arranged [like the party last night] but over the last few series i can remember candidates using the phone to hawk up business by cold calling - directly competing.

They use their 'business name' and not 'im Jack from the apprentice here' so they are directly competing without the ongoing costs of premises and transport and labour.

The only thing that you can say is that its apparently fair between the teams [though its actually not] but the concept of "profit" is ridiculous.

It would be interesting to produce a spin off/ copycat show with identical tasks using people you have found in the jobcentre. I wonder if they, of chosen carefully of course, would perform better than these so called high-fliers?

I think you're missing the point. These are two teams competing against each other, not the outside market. Any profits/losses are mearly releative to each other.

You have to remember that for many of them, the particular tasks set are not expected to be part of their experience, which is something the outside market would have. SAS is not looking for somone who is a better butty maker or a top toy designer. He's looking for the qualities in people which show they can adjust to unknown situations, and show how well they cope with them.

The costs of cars, fuel, mobiles etc, is frankly nit picking, and should be ignored if you are considering comparing the Apprentices with experienced companies & people.

Which 'point' do you think we are missing?

We know that the 'point' of the series is to pit the teams (and hence the candidates) against each other.

What is weird is that Siralan seems to think a team has done well and deserves an expensive 'treat' on the basis of making a profit when, in reality, they have done no such thing.

In all relevant cases that I can think of they have actually turned in a stonking great loss when labour is deducted.

OTOH I dare say they could do a great deal better if they had a more reasonable amount of time to prepare.

I've explained the point quite clearly. It's a TV show, pitting inexperienced teams, not established businesses, against each. On that basis, certain allowances have been made.

Stop thinking of profit in the program as profit in the real world. Next you'll be factoring in VAT, Class 2 NI, pensions, maternity leave provisions, sickness payments, holiday pay, the accomodation they're all staying in, etc, etc.

You are still missing the point.

They are being congratulated for turning a profit which would be completely dwarfed by the loss they would have made factoring in one of the most important considerations in any business: labour.

If you want to watch the programme in a fantasy world where people are told they've done well for losing large sums of money, go ahead, but don't whine at those of us who want to take a more realistic view.

I agree with those who say it's wrong to compare the teams on the Apprentice with established businesses. Fair enough, labour/transport costs etc are not factored in but then again, why should they be? They're not competing with outside professional companies, they're competing with each other - and as long as the factored costs are equal for both teams then that is the important thing.

To say that they wouldn't make a profit compared to professional companies (who have to operate with greater costs), while true, is misleading. Professional companies do not wake up in the morning to find they have to embark on a project that none of the members of that company have no experience in. And, besides having greater experience, They would also have an established customer base and greater economies of scale.

For these reasons, to compare what 'profit' an apprentice team makes with a professional outfit is wrong IMO. It's all about comparing how the teams (theoretically as inexperienced as each other) fare against each other that matters.

Who's whining?

Realistic view? Did you actually say 'realistic view'? It's a TV show you prat!

All you want to do is sound like a 'smart arse, i know about business' type. But because you won't accept certain allowances, owing to the fact it's a tv show, you actually come over as a complete knobhead!

Why don't you complain to the BBC, you never know, SAS might well take up you 'dotting i's and crossing t's' approach. Don't hold your breath though!

Realistic view! I'm still laughing at that comment!

If your self-employed you can't account for your time. It's all profit.

But yes, its absolutely artifical.

Err i made that point in the post above yours.

The other forumites are correct in my opinion, the show is built around these people being the cream of todays "apprentices". The tasks are won and lost on them turning more profit, and not on how they performed.

One could argue that last night even though the girls team 'won', they would have Zero repeat business as the food they served was terrible. This is not how business works.

What the teams should have done is spent as much as they "made", and got repeat business from them so next time they could turn a profit. However the show is designed not to reward that.

Businesses also don't work by hiring a group of people who have never met each other before, wake them up one morning and inform them that they have to make a profit and get repeat custom doing something that most of them have no experience of doing.

Welcome to the Apprentice...

Why should their own labour and transport be taken into account? If we're talking about Alan Sugar's profit then yes, but the teams themselves have made a profit. Their labour should be included in the prices they are charging, especially as both tasks have involved providing a service.

Slightly off topic, I love it when they show the negotiations with potential clients. The clients are in their sharpest suits and in their airy, expensive boardrooms.

Battle commences, with tense stand-offs as both sides manoeuvre to stay ahead of the game, before finally a tense showdown as they agree a price of, well, usually about £6.50 a piece for 7 widgets, total £45 ish.

Look after the pennies ....

Congratulations.

You've just demonstrated that, as well as not having the intellect to understand or care about business realities, you are also unable to conduct a civilised argument without recourse to crude name calling.

Good job.