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The Interpreter - ITV HD failed AGAIN!!


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Old 04-04-2009, 23:12
CPN
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This is really beginning to get tiresome! That's the umpteenth time my HDR has failed when recording something off ITV HD and that stupid red button way of doing things!! (BBC HD seems to record VERY reliably)

We purposely stayed off the Humax and watched something else just to make sure nothing clashed at all and yet it still locks up some 50odd minutes into the program (and of course we didn't know it had 'cause we were over on the TV's Freeview).

Just to rub salt in the wounds, when we eventually got the HDR rebooted and switched into ITV HD, it looks like its not even true HD but more like upscaled SD!! Absolute rubbish...

It's now got to the point where my wife refuses to record on the Humax if its something she really doesn't want to miss and frankly, I don't blame her.

I've seen Bob_cat's comments elsewhere about "consumer electronics" and this is not the "computer world". Well, I'm sorry Bob_cat but that is quite naive of a manufacturer to think that way. Anything with a CPU and Firmware/Software in it is in the "computer world" whether they like it or not and in that world, if the firmware/software performs poorly, it gets fixed in a timely manner and not 5 months down the line. It's getting to the point now where I feel like taking this machine back to Comet as "not fit for purpose". I wouldn't mind if it even tried to self recover but it doesn't even attempt to do that. It just sits there with frozen video and the sound stream still working for chrissakes!! (knocking Humax on forehead...) Hello Humax! It's a computer! What's wrong with your software engineers making sure that there are non-maskable interrupt routines and crash detection in place so that it can self-reset???

For me, there are far too many glitches/bugs in the firmware/software for it to be considered "ready for prime time". My Sony HXD860 PVR never suffered from a single glitch like this Foxsat HDR has done... (and trust me, that HXD860 has worked its nuts off for us) It's really not good enough.

[/rant=off]
There... I feel a bit better now...
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:54
gkite
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Just to rub salt in the wounds, when we eventually got the HDR rebooted and switched into ITV HD, it looks like its not even true HD but more like upscaled SD!! Absolute rubbish...
sorry to hear about your record issue - can't comment on that as I didn't try and record this one, but I did tune in at one point and absolutely agree with your upscaled SD comment. Which got me thinking, we hear about new TV programs being recorded using HD cameras etc. What's the technical process for converting films into an HD broadcast - should we expect as much?
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Old 05-04-2009, 08:25
awo1949
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sorry to hear about your record issue - can't comment on that as I didn't try and record this one, but I did tune in at one point and absolutely agree with your upscaled SD comment. Which got me thinking, we hear about new TV programs being recorded using HD cameras etc. What's the technical process for converting films into an HD broadcast - should we expect as much?
Films are converted to video (analogue or digital) by a process called telecine. However, that probably isn't the issue here. The issues are more likley to be when the conversion was done and by whom. It is unlikely that ITV have a copy of the film themselves. They are more likely to receive a digital copy from the distributer which they will store for repeat showings. This explains why so many films are in SD although they are clearly amenable to HD. The broadcaster will have obtained a SD copy, and the rights to show it, some while ago. To broadcast the film in HD, they will have to acquire the HD version (and the rights that go with it) at additional cost. Whether this explains why The Interpreter appears to have been upscaled SD is another matter. It is recent enough that ITV should have been able to obtain just the HD copy, which they could downscale for SD transmission. Perhaps that's what they did, but then upscaled the downscaled version for the HD transmission. It seems far fetched but, given ITV HD's record, not implausible.
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Old 05-04-2009, 08:36
woolfynorm
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sorry to hear about your record issue - can't comment on that as I didn't try and record this one, but I did tune in at one point and absolutely agree with your upscaled SD comment. Which got me thinking, we hear about new TV programs being recorded using HD cameras etc. What's the technical process for converting films into an HD broadcast - should we expect as much?
Recorded fine in GRANADA land, picture bit ropey though as stated.

Woolfynorm
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Old 05-04-2009, 08:49
grahamlthompson
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Both the films recorded fine here in the West Midlands (The Interpreter and My Little Eye)
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Old 05-04-2009, 09:23
White-Knight
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It's getting to the point now where I feel like taking this machine back to Comet as "not fit for purpose".
There's a lot of thought CPN that the problem isn't with the box on ITV.

Unfortunately in the past it seems that ITV have failed to mark up HD programmes correctly with the result that some haven't been in HD when advertised as such, have only been available in HD AFTER they've already started (quite common by a few seconds and sometimes by minutes), only 1/2 the programme has been in HD or recordings have failed to start / end because of seemingly missing markers. There are also the notoriously bad News break markers that cut off the programme before the break has started losing the end of part 1 and often cut it back in after the break has finished losing the start of part 2.

Its easy to blame Humax here but from past problems it appears the problems are often with ITV and their programming of the EPG.

I gave up recording anything off ITV HD several months ago as it's simply not worth the hassle.

If ITV want to keep their audience and thus advertisers happy, they really need to run a separate channel for HD instead of a Red Button service because the Red Button Sucks!
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Old 05-04-2009, 09:36
CPN
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Whether this explains why The Interpreter appears to have been upscaled SD is another matter. It is recent enough that ITV should have been able to obtain just the HD copy, which they could downscale for SD transmission. Perhaps that's what they did, but then upscaled the downscaled version for the HD transmission. It seems far fetched but, given ITV HD's record, not implausible.
That sounds more than plausible to me... It seems to be like everything else ITV "touches" at the moment, "oh dear, we don't really have the money to do that properly at the moment so let's just do it on the cheap..."

My resounding message to ITV would be the same as in other walks of life, "if you can't stand the heat, get OUT of the kitchen and make way for someone who can!!" It is totally unacceptable, in my opinion, for ITV to do what it is doing to besmirch the HD platform and the excellence that it can and should achieve (and the BBC shows how; on a daily basis).

Definitive HD can only be broadcast with a complete commitment (financially) right through from production to broadcast and I'm sorry if I seem like an old stuffed shirt but good old "Auntie" BBC sets the benchmark daily on how it should be done and blows ALL the competition out of the water. Yes, there are not enough HD hours broadcast in the day by the Beeb but I feel that just reflects the "honesty" of the funding that has been budgeted for it rather than lack of production commitment.

I don't even know why Channel 4 bothers with its HD channel to be honest... From what I've seen of it (in non-Freesat mode on the HDR), less than 10% of its output is proper HD. I suppose at least ITV are a bit more honest when it comes to "content" in that it's implemented using the red button nonsense but that in itself must be seen as a half-hearted attempt at HD broadcasting driven by lack of funds... (and then of course, there's the "upscaled SD" discussion point...)
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Old 05-04-2009, 09:48
CPN
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There's a lot of thought CPN that the problem isn't with the box on ITV.
...
I gave up recording anything off ITV HD several months ago as it's simply not worth the hassle.

If ITV want to keep their audience and thus advertisers happy, they really need to run a separate channel for HD instead of a Red Button service because the Red Button Sucks!
Amen to that!!

Interesting thoughts but then, why should that cause the Humax to crash and burn? There are obviously some decoding glitches in the software somewhere if it is that sensitive that it can't cope with any fast switching?

Colin
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Old 05-04-2009, 09:58
KDH
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Recorded OK in Anglia (ITV Anglia S ) region
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Old 05-04-2009, 11:46
woolfynorm
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There's a lot of thought CPN that the problem isn't with the box on ITV.

Unfortunately in the past it seems that ITV have failed to mark up HD programmes correctly with the result that some haven't been in HD when advertised as such, have only been available in HD AFTER they've already started (quite common by a few seconds and sometimes by minutes), only 1/2 the programme has been in HD or recordings have failed to start / end because of seemingly missing markers. There are also the notoriously bad News break markers that cut off the programme before the break has started losing the end of part 1 and often cut it back in after the break has finished losing the start of part 2.

Its easy to blame Humax here but from past problems it appears the problems are often with ITV and their programming of the EPG.

I gave up recording anything off ITV HD several months ago as it's simply not worth the hassle.

If ITV want to keep their audience and thus advertisers happy, they really need to run a separate channel for HD instead of a Red Button service because the Red Button Sucks!
What's the red button service, when I select an ITV programme that's available in HD if offers me the option to record it, much like BBC 1, am I missing something?

Woolflynorm
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Old 05-04-2009, 11:46
srhill
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sat down to watch it on my skyHD box - good pq - but I realised after 30 secs that I had seen it so will have to wait until Tuesday for something to watch on itvHD
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Old 05-04-2009, 12:10
CPN
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What's the red button service, when I select an ITV programme that's available in HD if offers me the option to record it, much like BBC 1, am I missing something?

Woolflynorm
Yes. ITV only broadcast their HD service using a sub-stream that is activated by the Red Button. This stream only becomes available as a "separate" channel while the red button is active and disappears from the EPG once the red button goes "out". The Foxsat HDR knows about all these flags; hence why it knows and gives you the option from the EPG of recording in HD or SD if it sees it, but, it absolutely relies on ITV broadcasting all these flags correctly in the EPG all the time...

The main difference from selecting a HD recording between BBC and ITV is that for BBC, the HDR simply switches channels to 108 (any HD BBC1/2 output is always simulcast on BBC HD) during its recording whereas, for ITV, it has to do all the red button jiggery pokery and switch to a pseudo channel indicated in the transponder stream and hope that its there when it switches!

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Old 05-04-2009, 12:16
CPN
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sat down to watch it on my skyHD box - good pq -
I wasn't implying that it wasn't "good" picture quality... It just wasn't FULL HD... (I doubt that it was on SkyHD either...) For clues to whether something is upscaled or not, check out close ups of the skin texture on people's faces when possible... In TRUE HD, you can see every pimple, blemish or even hair clearly. For upscaled, the skin takes on a sort of mottled effect and the pimples/blemishes blurr...

For me, it's either HD or it isn't and upscaled SD in my book, in no way is HD. Maybe I've just got fussy eyes...
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Old 05-04-2009, 12:23
grahamlthompson
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This is really beginning to get tiresome! That's the umpteenth time my HDR has failed when recording something off ITV HD and that stupid red button way of doing things!! (BBC HD seems to record VERY reliably)

We purposely stayed off the Humax and watched something else just to make sure nothing clashed at all and yet it still locks up some 50odd minutes into the program (and of course we didn't know it had 'cause we were over on the TV's Freeview).

Just to rub salt in the wounds, when we eventually got the HDR rebooted and switched into ITV HD, it looks like its not even true HD but more like upscaled SD!! Absolute rubbish...

It's now got to the point where my wife refuses to record on the Humax if its something she really doesn't want to miss and frankly, I don't blame her.

I've seen Bob_cat's comments elsewhere about "consumer electronics" and this is not the "computer world". Well, I'm sorry Bob_cat but that is quite naive of a manufacturer to think that way. Anything with a CPU and Firmware/Software in it is in the "computer world" whether they like it or not and in that world, if the firmware/software performs poorly, it gets fixed in a timely manner and not 5 months down the line. It's getting to the point now where I feel like taking this machine back to Comet as "not fit for purpose". I wouldn't mind if it even tried to self recover but it doesn't even attempt to do that. It just sits there with frozen video and the sound stream still working for chrissakes!! (knocking Humax on forehead...) Hello Humax! It's a computer! What's wrong with your software engineers making sure that there are non-maskable interrupt routines and crash detection in place so that it can self-reset???

For me, there are far too many glitches/bugs in the firmware/software for it to be considered "ready for prime time". My Sony HXD860 PVR never suffered from a single glitch like this Foxsat HDR has done... (and trust me, that HXD860 has worked its nuts off for us) It's really not good enough.

[/rant=off]
There... I feel a bit better now...
So far since last november my box has not failed to record a single ITV HD programme (or BBC HD for that matter). Never recorded the football though. Perhaps the only difference is that I always set a single event recording not a series. (don't trust the broadcasters to get the series codes right
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Old 05-04-2009, 12:25
Jarrak
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I wasn't implying that it wasn't "good" picture quality... It just wasn't FULL HD... (I doubt that it was on SkyHD either...) For clues to whether something is upscaled or not, check out close ups of the skin texture on people's faces when possible... In TRUE HD, you can see every pimple, blemish or even hair clearly. For upscaled, the skin takes on a sort of mottled effect and the pimples/blemishes blurr...

For me, it's either HD or it isn't and upscaled SD in my book, in no way is HD. Maybe I've just got fussy eyes...




Anyone who has seen HD (broadcast or Blu) realises that the source master is critical to creating a HD master for domestic use. There is nothing strange about a studio master being used to create a HD master by a simple scan process with no attempt to do a basic clean up or let alone fully restore the source material.
We see very obvious differences in Blu-ray quality thanks to the variations in the source masters used (both deliberate and due to economic or storage issues) or the money spent on prepping them for conversion.
A poor quality master can provide a good HD re-mastering with the same result as a good master and it simply being upscaled taking into account all factors.

A poor HD broadcast does not mean upscaled, it would much easier if it did for everyone from the videophile to the average currys customer to understand

I flicked the move on for a few minues as my first ITVHD broadcast via the SKY+HD (seen them via the PC before) to the plasma. It certainly wasn't impressive but too many variables to simply state it's upscaled especially given how many times ITVHD have dumped previous HD listings infavour of an SD broadcast.
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Old 05-04-2009, 12:30
GaseousClay
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What's the red button service, when I select an ITV programme that's available in HD if offers me the option to record it, much like BBC 1, am I missing something?

Woolflynorm
Along with CPNs explanation when you make a recording schedule on itv you don't see any reference to the red button as it's all done by the stb automatically. If however you decided to watch an HD programme on itv you would tune to channel 103 and as the programme starts the red button prompt would appear
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Old 05-04-2009, 12:37
CPN
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I flicked the move on for a few minues as my first ITVHD broadcast via the SKY+HD (seen them via the PC before) to the plasma. It certainly wasn't impressive but too many variables to simply state it's upscaled especially given how many times ITVHD have dumped previous HD listings infavour of an SD broadcast.
Well, you know what? Then I would scream louder at ITV and say "get the heck out of HD then if you can't do it properly and stop giving people a poor and misleading impression of how good HD really can be!" and repeat it to anyone doing the same...
I have yet to view a poor quality BBC high definition broadcast, so they would be exempt
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Old 05-04-2009, 12:59
Jarrak
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Well, you know what? Then I would scream louder at ITV and say "get the heck out of HD then if you can't do it properly and stop giving people a poor and misleading impression of how good HD really can be!" and repeat it to anyone doing the same...
I have yet to view a poor quality BBC high definition broadcast, so they would be exempt




Valid point
The problem of course with bought content is that you are pretty much reliant on what is offered, huge amounts of catalogue content is simply scanned and dumped on the market so does a broadcaster ignore that and simply show movies from the last few years (even those have elements that some consider wrong) or just those that have been remastered?
Blu-ray is exactly the same as the market is awash with comparatively poor catalogue titles compared to some reference new or remastered releases.

The BBC have been criticised as much as anyone for their HD quality since 2006, it seems to have improved over the last few months but that could be simply down to the current crop of productions.
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Old 05-04-2009, 13:03
srhill
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Comparing the PQ on ITV1 and ITVHD through satellite system was like chalk and cheese.

It might not have been the best ever HD PQ I have seen - but a vast improvement on the SD PQ.

As previous posts have suggested, in my experience Movies can vary tremendoudly in PQ even in HD!
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Old 05-04-2009, 13:19
CPN
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Comparing the PQ on ITV1 and ITVHD through satellite system was like chalk and cheese.

It might not have been the best ever HD PQ I have seen - but a vast improvement on the SD PQ.

As previous posts have suggested, in my experience Movies can vary tremendoudly in PQ even in HD!
Point taken.

I guess my own problem is that I have "raised the bar" kind of high for the standard I expect to see with every HD broadcast now and that has been based on a live true HD broadcast and the aforementioned skin complexion tones but also, I now expect to be able to discern a single blade of grass from a distance!
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Old 05-04-2009, 13:21
awo1949
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... I now expect to be able to discern a single blade of grass from a distance!
... and see the veining in it .
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Old 05-04-2009, 13:24
CPN
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... and see the veining in it .
Absolutely! lol! ...and the caterpillar's mouth parts as he's chomping on it but now, I suppose, I'm getting a bit silly...
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Old 05-04-2009, 13:41
germanycalling
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(BBC HD seems to record VERY reliably)



It's now got to the point where my wife refuses to record on the Humax if its something she really doesn't want to miss and frankly, I don't blame her.


For me, there are far too many glitches/bugs in the firmware/software for it to be considered "ready for prime time". My Sony HXD860 PVR never suffered from a single glitch like this Foxsat HDR has done... (and trust me, that HXD860 has worked its nuts off for us) It's really not good enough.

[/rant=off]
There... I feel a bit better now...
I would keep the faith. Working on the principle of rubbish in = rubbish out (or indeed nothing out at all ) would seem to be the key here IMO. Having spotted the the HD option in one of the guides I intended to record it. The Humax offered me the SD or HD options. I went for HD and then was quite correctly given a "clash" warning. My ITV is set to London, and two other recordings were scheduled. Thus the correct data was there at least for me.
I have had the occasional failed recording but it is the exception to the rule in my experience, and my scheduled recordings extend into three pages! Are all you failed recordings or problems only on ITV as you state BBC HD is ok? ITV do seem to be making progress as the Ukraine footie was excellent for me and my Billy Connolly recordings all worked.
Thus I would guess you problems may be EPG related rather than Humax. As an aside for the first time today I saw the guide change before my eyes today due to the F1 coverage alteration. So the system does seem to work if it gets the right data .....
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Old 05-04-2009, 14:07
RichardRees
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I don't even know why Channel 4 bothers with its HD channel to be honest... From what I've seen of it (in non-Freesat mode on the HDR ...
How do you get it in non-freesat mode? I thought it was scrambled.
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Old 05-04-2009, 14:13
CPN
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How do you get it in non-freesat mode? I thought it was scrambled.
...with a bona-fide Sky FTV card in a Diablo CAM...
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