She hasn't trained it because she cannot bring herself to raise her voice to the animal.
So when it is out of the cage it thinks it is leader of the pack. It can be rather intimidating around visitors as it likes to put them in their place by growling and jumping up at the. When it did that to me, I yelled at it and she got quite upset about me shouting at her baby.
As I said, it is a beagle and they are bred to live in huge social groups. But this one is on its own and caged because it is untrained, unruly and destructive. Presumably she thinks she is honouring its integrity or somesuch by not training it.

Alan

This woman seriously shouldn't own pets.

Ah, sounds like she wants the best for the dog but is incredibly nieive, it should be obvious to her that the dog is more unhappy in its current situation and that discipline would mean a happier dog who knows its boundaries

Cheers. I would really like some vegan replies - they might be able to throw some understanding.
Alan

Children destory houses too...would she cage them? If you have a dog (or cat etc) they are a part of the family. Id never shut my dog outsode or in th kitchen or something.

Im starting to think a lot of these animal activists dont actually care about animals they just want to control other people and feel part of their club.

Ive recently found out that PETA kill healthy and re-homeable animals.

Ah right. So it's only vegan replies then. Fair enough.

Not at all. But I wondered what vegans would make of it all, especially the animal-owning stuff.
Alan

I wasn't meaning that in a sarcastic way, but just noticed you said you were wanting to hear from vegans.

It isn't uncommon amongst many meat eaters I know either. It's not possible to live a totally ethical lifestyle without going to live in a cave somewhere, people just do what they can. Nobody is perfect.


Probably. I'm a lapsed veggie but I always fed my animals meat, it's my choice to not eat it not theirs. I tried to ensure it was meat that had been ethically reared, some pet food manufacturers are better than others.


Only if they're eating them.


Professional trainer here. Yes, crates can be great, a lot of dogs like to be in small, confined spaces because they feel secure. Not all day though. I have crates in my house with the doors always left open. My dogs choose to sleep there when they feel like it.

Shutting the dog outside all day isn't particularly nice, but thankfully they are not your only options. Dogs are very social animals and they need companionship to be truly happy.


Training doesn't have to be about raising your voice or being horrible. Leader of the pack theory is outdated as well, so it's unlikely to be that. Jumping up and people and growling is more likely an insecure dog trying to control a scary situation (person coming in to their safe space is scary for dogs who are worried by humans) and shouting at him wont help. It might make him less likely to jump up at you, but possibly more dangerous for the next person that comes through the door.

Why not suggest your friend looks into clicker training, or finds a good, reward based trainer in her area. Dogs don't hate being trained, most love to learn new things and be challenged mentally. Like us, they are a species that has evolved to be adaptive and to learn.

I don't know what history this dog has, perhaps it's a rescue dog that has some issues your friend feels out of her depth with.

I wonder whether the dog is actually caged 24 hours a day (apart from walks) or just when there are visitors present.

It sounds like your friend is misguided rather than bad. She believes it's a choice of crate the dog or punish it for bad behaviour, and that's not the case at all. Telling a dog what it shouldn't be doing isn't really helpful. There are hundreds of things a dog shouldn't be doing at any one time. It's far easier to teach a dog what it SHOULD be doing and reward it for choosing that option.

Point your friend in the direction of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers who only use reward based methods APDTor a free, online clicker training course which is fantastic is Canis Clicker Training

Thanks for that Josie. The prob is that she seems to think that all is well. And she will not discuss it.
They had builders in the other week for a few days and the dog was put in the garden in its cage.
It made such a racket that neigbours complained to environmental health who threatened them with a fat fine if they didn't stop the noise.
Alan

Tone of voice rather than loudness of voice is what the dog reacts to. You don't need to shout to train a dog, just use a lower, sharper tone.

Actually I didn't shout, but I did make my feelings plain. She was not happy.
Alan

With really sensitive dogs you don't even need to do that. If you train them adequately, it doesn't matter what tone of voice you use because they understand what is expected of them and do it. You just need to concentrate on motivating the dog enough to comply, rather than ordering them to.

Alan, I feel for you in this situation, can't be very nice to watch. Maybe you could say conversationally 'have you heard of clicker training? someone was talking about it the other day, seemed the sort of thing you'd be into' and hope that plants the seeds for her to find out? She probably feels very defensive and is unwilling to open up, which does suggest to me that she's aware there is a problem. If she thought everything was fine she wouldn't give two hoots what you, or anyone else thought.

I get told I shouldn't allow my dogs on the furniture, but I know that's rubbish so I don't get upset if someone tells me that. If someone tried to tell me my dogs could really speak fluent English and were just refusing to talk because they were stubborn, again I wouldn't give much credence to them. You've obviously hit a nerve with your friend, which is a positive thing really.

If a dog is caged throughout the day (other than walking time) the dog will have a lot of pent up energy. This could be some of reason why when she lets the dog out, he plays up. It's a catch 22 situation. The dog plays up, gets caged, gets bored and restless, dog comes out, causes trouble.
How is the dog untrained? Does it foul in the house? What I am trying to ask is, how far with the basic training has the owner managed to get so far?

Not all breeds are happy to be penned in at all. My breed hates to be penned in and away from the family. That's why not all breeds can be housed in an outside kennel whereas other dogs do just fine.

I'd love to see you try and keep a bully in an outside kennel! I think they need laps in the same way as they need food and water!

I know this. But don't you find it sickening that this person purportedly cares for animals' welfare and protests about it when they are far away from her, but doesn't hig her own dog anything like the life it needs? It's like going on marches about treating children badly, and then treating one's own child badly oneself. It's disgustingly hypocritical, surely.

Eating habits aside, this woman has let her dog get out of control. I hate when people automatically assume a crate is cruel. However, I do agree that leaving your dog alone - shut in a room or a crate - for long periods is wrong. My dog is crated and he actually is very happy in there. When left home alone, he hates the space and cries. If I leave the crate door open so he can wander around the kitchen, he'll just go in there and sleep anyway. Used correctly, it's great for toilet training, separation anxiety and keeping a dog safe. No matter how much you dog-proof the house, they still find ways to get into trouble and may injure themselves. Until they've stopped all destructive behaviours, leaving them too much freedom is just asking for trouble. However, used wrongly, it can create the problems like this woman's dog has.

I've given my reply as a veggie/vegan. Am I invisible or does my post not count?

Just trying to encourage a few more.
thanks for yours.
Alan

standard animal rights nutbag hypocrisy.

by their standards owning a pet is slavery in the first place. with her warped world view she probably thought of it like a person instead of an animal leading to an animal that misbehaves.

Because all animal rights people have exactly the same beliefs then?

If she's very into animal welfare, she could've rehomed the dog meaning the behaviour problems are nothing to do with her, how could you possibly know?

It doesn't sound much like she's been treating it like a person, perhaps you regularly shut other people in cages for the majority of the day? It's not something I'm in the habit of doing.

Perhaps as you say, she means well, but is a bit ignorant and inept. You would think she might have a go and find out about ways to deal with and train the dog though. That would be responsible and sensible. She might do it, hopefully, with a bit of encouragement.

However, if she's too 'proud' or not bothered enough to go and find out about training and apply it, then, I'm sorry, I'm just glad she's got a dog instead of a child.

I'm not a vegan but a vegetarian. The whole idea of veganism is to minimise your contribution to animal suffering and exploitation as far as is possible. If she cannot take care of this dog, I am sure someone else can.

alan ~ I have a good friend who is vegan for ethical reasons. After being veggie for many years, she thought that the way dairy cattle are kept in totally unnatural & sometimes cruel conditions was actually worse than the way beef cattle are kept. At least beef cattle seem to be able to live a relatively natural, if short, life.

My friend has several dogs & cats but she feeds them meat because this is what dogs & cats eat. It would be cruel (& therefore hypocritical) to deprive her pets of their natural food & way of life.

Her most important aims are to provide her pets with the best & most natural way of life that she can. I think this is what most responsible pet owners want to do, whatever they choose to eat themselves.

But domestic pets have to live alongside people in a huge variety of domestic settings. In order for these pets to cope with the lifestyle we choose to inflict on them, we must, as caring pet owners, teach them, as kindly as possible, that there are certain rules & boundaries. This is mostly for their own safety. A dog that is poorly socialised, scared of people, completely frustrated by its lifestyle & is unable to act out its normal behaviours, will be extremely unhappy & stressed. Living in these conditions your friend's poor dog could well vent its frustration by becoming aggressive to people or other dogs. How would your friend feel if she was forced to have her dog destroyed because it bit someone?

If her vegan ethics include being kind & caring to animals surely she must see that the treatment of her pet goes against those ethics. No she shouldn't need to shout at her dog, or punish it, but there are plenty of ways to train a dog, teach it what the rules are & provide a kind & loving home without resorting to punishment.

Josie has given very good advice. Could you have a word with your friend, or perhaps enlist the help of her vegan friends, to point her in the right direction?