[Mike_1101]

Despite being very sceptical about LCD (and Plasma) equipment, I have finally relented and bought one. It wasn't even a planned purchase, I found a local dealer who was heavily discounting (£580 including a basic stand). I was told it is a discontinued model.

The set is a SHARP LC-37RD2E. It was made in Japan. I have had SHARP products in the past, they seem reliable and well made although not very exciting. How do they rate? Apparently this set only does 720p not 1080i but this does not seem to be a problem. I have set the display to show widescreen material as 16:9 and older material as 4:3, (WSS signal).

Once installed, I went through the settings carefully to produce a picture I like. Freeview is disappointing, the BBC channels seem to lack focus and definition, most of the commercial ones are even worse. I will not be watching freeview, instead I use a Virgin V+ box connected with HDMI cable, this is better although there are too many channels deserving a good kicking for their rubbish picture quality! No complaints about BBC-HD.

I also have a FORTEC satellite receiver for Astra 1 & Hotbird. This does not have HDMI so I had to connect it using SCART. Even so I have seen some excellent pictures from Germany, if their SD is this good, the HD should be superb. Bayerischer Rundfunk in Munich seem to make a real effort. It's interesting that many other countries on Astra 1 and Hotbird don't broadcast widescreen at all, the italian RAI channels on hotbird all appear as 4:3 - strange?

The best feature is that the picture seems much "cleaner" than on a CRT, the line structure is not visible and there is no visible flicker. These are really obvious when I watch the old CRT set now.

I am amazed to say that despite being so hostile and sceptival for so long, this is much better.would I go back? NO! For the money I think I got a good deal.

What do you think?

Thanks

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_1101

The set is a SHARP LC-37RD2E. It was made in Japan. I have had SHARP products in the past, they seem reliable and well made although not very exciting. How do they rate?

Sharp aren't bad, the top two manufacturers are Sony and Panasonic, but Sharp are probably in the top five.

I did a long term test with a 32 inch Sony next to a 32 inch Sharp, and while the Sony was definitely a better picture, it wasn't that much better, and the Sharp was considerably cheaper - I never did decide if I considered the price differance for the slightly better picture was worth it or not.

Quote:

Apparently this set only does 720p not 1080i but this does not seem to be a problem.

Not at all, it's presumably an HD Ready set, and probably has a screen resolution of 768 pixels - it will display both 720P and 1080i signals, scaling up or down as required. It 'may' accept 1080P signals, but this isn't always the case, and it's not required for HD Ready.

[Mike_1101]

Thanks for your reply. I have tried the Virgin box on 1080i - all I get is an "out of range" message.

[Willie Wontie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_1101

I found a local dealer who was heavily discounting (£580 including a basic stand). I was told it is a discontinued model.

The set is a SHARP LC-37RD2E.

That seems quite expensive for a 37" LCD that isn't even Full HD. Amazon are selling lots of 37" LCDs (and quite a few 40" LCDs) for a lot less than £500 by respected manufacturers such as Sony, Toshiba, LG, Panasonic and Samsung. Richer Sounds also have several brand new 37" models for £400 or less (Sony, LG, Hitachi). And several others for less than £500 (Sharp, Sony again). Whether the newer models are any worse than the older discontinued model you have bought I don't know.

[Mike_1101]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie Wontie

That seems quite expensive for a 37" LCD that isn't even Full HD. Amazon are selling lots of 37" LCDs (and quite a few 40" LCDs) for a lot less than £500 by respected manufacturers such as Sony, Toshiba, LG, Panasonic and Samsung. Richer Sounds also have several brand new 37" models for £400 or less (Sony, LG, Hitachi). And several others for less than £500 (Sharp, Sony again). Whether the newer models are any worse than the older discontinued model you have bought I don't know.

I accept what you say. I will have to explore this 1080i issue.

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_1101

I accept what you say. I will have to explore this 1080i issue.

Do you have any other HDMI source you can try?, unless the set is faulty it WILL accept a 1080i signal, it has to in order to meet the HD Ready standard.

It's quite possible the V+ box is duff?, they seem a bit strange in the way they do their outputs.

[Mike_1101]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Do you have any other HDMI source you can try?, unless the set is faulty it WILL accept a 1080i signal, it has to in order to meet the HD Ready standard.

It's quite possible the V+ box is duff?, they seem a bit strange in the way they do their outputs.

I don't have another HDMI source at present but I have tried again and the display is now accepting 1080i from the V+ box. To be honest I can't see any difference in the pictures. Please tell me what it is.

Is it as noticeable as the difference between 625 and the old 405 lines on analogue. I remember that, 405 looked horrible on a 23" Pye set my parents had around 1970 although they still had an old 17" Ekco from 1955 , 405 was fine on that.

Or is the technology now so different that comparison with CRTs isn't really possible.

Thanks

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_1101

I don't have another HDMI source at present but I have tried again and the display is now accepting 1080i from the V+ box. To be honest I can't see any difference in the pictures. Please tell me what it is.

All HD broadcasts are 1080i, so if you set the box to 720P it down-converts them, then your TV scales it back up again to fit it's screen. With it set to 1080i the box outputs the signal untouched, and your TV just has to scale it to fit the screen.

Generally 1080i is the better option, but some prefer 720P, it's a personal customer setting, set it how YOU prefer.

[Mike_1101]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

All HD broadcasts are 1080i, so if you set the box to 720P it down-converts them, then your TV scales it back up again to fit it's screen. With it set to 1080i the box outputs the signal untouched, and your TV just has to scale it to fit the screen.

Generally 1080i is the better option, but some prefer 720P, it's a personal customer setting, set it how YOU prefer.

Done that and it's now on 720p, 1080 doesn't look quite right.

But I like this set. it has a 100hz option that makes "film look" material (and original film) look much smoother and natural. I have seen an old world war 2 newsreel on it from the 1940s, even this benefited from the treatment.

Good advice and thanks.

[meltcity]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

All HD broadcasts are 1080i, so if you set the box to 720P it down-converts them, then your TV scales it back up again to fit it's screen. With it set to 1080i the box outputs the signal untouched, and your TV just has to scale it to fit the screen.

Generally 1080i is the better option, but some prefer 720P, it's a personal customer setting, set it how YOU prefer.

1080i is not the ideal setting for SD channels, though.

When upscaling SD channels to 1080i, the V+ box scaler deinterlaces the native 576i signal to 576p, upscales to 1080p, then throws away half the vertical information in order to produce a 1080i signal. The 1080i signal received by the TV then has to be deinterlaced, again!

An AUTO setting similar to the one on Sky HD boxes that scales SD channels to 576p would be useful innovation on V+ boxes - although there can be noticeable lag on some TVs when switching between different video formats. Some Freeview PVRs are able to output native 576i, which is useful if your TV has a good scaler (or if you have a dedicated video processor).

[SilverFox2]

All LCD and Plasma sets will only display progressive they will not display interlaced.(ie ''p'' not ''i'')

If your set is HD ready the 1080i signal will be displayed at 720p only despite being able to receive 1080i .

If your set is full HD it will display at 1080p the 1080i signal it receives or any other SD signal for that matter..

[Mike_1101]

Let's settle this.

I have just tried BBC HD on the 720 and 1080 settings from the V+ box. There is very little in it except that movement seems at little more natural and smooth in 720 mode.

I can certainly live with it!

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverFox2

All LCD and Plasma sets will only display progressive they will not display interlaced.(ie ''p'' not ''i'')

An often repeated fallacy, the sets are neither i or P, so it doesn't apply.

Quote:

If your set is HD ready the 1080i signal will be displayed at 720p only despite being able to receive 1080i .

Again, another often repeated fallacy, very few sets are 720 pixel, HD Ready sets are mostly 768 pixel, and all signals will be scaled to fit.

Quote:

If your set is full HD it will display at 1080p the 1080i signal it receives or any other SD signal for that matter..

Again, a misleading statement, all sets will display at the resolution of the screen, and as it isn't scanned, neither i nor P apply.

For those of you you have done computer programming in the past, think of it as a double-buffered video card. Each frame, regardless of source, is built up in memory and 'blasted' to the screen in effectively a single operation.

[figrin_dan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverFox2

If your set is HD ready the 1080i signal will be displayed at 720p only despite being able to receive 1080i .

If your set is full HD it will display at 1080p the 1080i signal it receives or any other SD signal for that matter..

You are suggesting "HD ready" means that it is not "Full HD"
This is just wrong and possibly confusing.

HD ready means it is capable of displaying at least 720P with HDCP.
Full HD is a [rubbish] marketing term to advertise 1080P capability.

[SilverFox2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by figrin_dan

You are suggesting "HD ready" means that it is not "Full HD"
This is just wrong and possibly confusing.

HD ready means it is capable of displaying at least 720P with HDCP.
Full HD is a [rubbish] marketing term to advertise 1080P capability.

Agree with you. Sorry about that.

I was merely trying to make the point that a TV that is capable of receiving ''only'' up to 1080i (ie 540 lines at a time) cannot display at 1080p and must use the lower 720p or thereabouts full frame of the TV.
This is in contrast to one that can receive a 1080p frame (ie 1080 lines at a time) which will display at 1080p on the TV.

Sorry about using the wrong terminology.

[SilverFox2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

An often repeated fallacy, the sets are neither i or P, so it doesn't apply.



Again, another often repeated fallacy, very few sets are 720 pixel, HD Ready sets are mostly 768 pixel, and all signals will be scaled to fit.



Again, a misleading statement, all sets will display at the resolution of the screen, and as it isn't scanned, neither i nor P apply.

For those of you you have done computer programming in the past, think of it as a double-buffered video card. Each frame, regardless of source, is built up in memory and 'blasted' to the screen in effectively a single operation.

Well Nigel,

As you well know i do not have your technical expertise or knowledge but in this instance i would refer you to the following webpage which may or may not confirm your conviction of what constitutes a fallacy.

http://hometheater.about.com/cs/tele...avideoresa.htm

You may or may not respect their opinion and to be truthfull perhaps I have lost a little in my translation but perhaps your superior technical brain will draw similar conclusions to my own.

I'm not holding my breath.

[bobcar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverFox2

Agree with you. Sorry about that.

I was merely trying to make the point that a TV that is capable of receiving ''only'' up to 1080i (ie 540 lines at a time) cannot display at 1080p and must use the lower 720p or thereabouts full frame of the TV.
This is in contrast to one that can receive a 1080p frame (ie 1080 lines at a time) which will display at 1080p on the TV.

Sorry about using the wrong terminology.

This is still wrong, there quite a few sets that will receive a 1080p frame but have a lower resolution and will not display 1080 lines (my Panny plasma is one). Less common nowadays (but they certainly used to exist) are sets that will display 1080 lines but will only accept 1080i.

It is very important not to confuse the signal a TV will accept with the resolution of the screen, they are very different things and all TVs will scale the input to fit the screen (though 1080i->1080p does not require scaling as they are the same spacial resolution).

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverFox2

Well Nigel,

As you well know i do not have your technical expertise or knowledge but in this instance i would refer you to the following webpage which may or may not confirm your conviction of what constitutes a fallacy.

http://hometheater.about.com/cs/tele...avideoresa.htm

You may or may not respect their opinion and to be truthfull perhaps I have lost a little in my translation but perhaps your superior technical brain will draw similar conclusions to my own.

After a quick read through it, it doesn't seem to mention much of any relevence? - and most of it seems to be referring to CRT sets where the picture is built up line by line as it's scanned.

Both i and P refer to the scanning method, either interlaced or sequential, and as a PLASMA/LCD display isn't scanned in that way, they don't apply as such.

If you have a digital camera take a picture of your set working, a CRT (because it's scanned) will have a big black bar across the image, a PLASMA/LCD won't, because it's not scanned.

[SilverFox2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobcar

This is still wrong, there quite a few sets that will receive a 1080p frame but have a lower resolution and will not display 1080 lines (my Panny plasma is one). Less common nowadays (but they certainly used to exist) are sets that will display 1080 lines but will only accept 1080i.

It is very important not to confuse the signal a TV will accept with the resolution of the screen, they are very different things and all TVs will scale the input to fit the screen (though 1080i->1080p does not require scaling as they are the same spacial resolution).

Thanks for the reply and bringing this to my attention..

I assumed if a TV can accept a 1080i signal and able to display 1080 lines it would deinterlace itself and display as 1080p. Not necessarily so it would seem.

The first instance is also one i didn't know about (presumably from a blue ray) the set receives at 1080p and yet cannot display that resolution itself.

Perhaps my errors don't finish there.
Can you confirm plasma's and lcd's are unable to display interlaced pictures and must display progressive pictures?

[bobcar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverFox2

Thanks for the reply and bringing this to my attention..

I assumed if a TV can accept a 1080i signal and able to display 1080 lines it would deinterlace itself and display as 1080p. Not necessarily so it would seem.

The first instance is also one i didn't know about (presumably from a blue ray) the set receives at 1080p and yet cannot display that resolution itself.

Perhaps my errors don't finish there.
Can you confirm plasma's and lcd's are unable to display interlaced pictures and must display progressive pictures?

Except for a few rare special cases (eg ALIS) all flat panels display the whole picture at once so yes if they take an interlaced signal they will de-interlace it. 1080i to a 1080p panel does not require scaling but does require de-interlacing, it may well still scale it though if overscan is in place but this equally applies to a 1080p signal.

What tried to make clear is the important thing is to distinguish between the input (480i/p, 576i/p, 720p, 1080i/p) and the screen which is fixed for a particular TV. The inputs a TV can accept are not affected by the display though it is more likely that a 1080 line TV will be able to accept a 1080p input.

[SilverFox2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobcar

Except for a few rare special cases (eg ALIS) all flat panels display the whole picture at once so yes if they take an interlaced signal they will de-interlace it. 1080i to a 1080p panel does not require scaling but does require de-interlacing, it may well still scale it though if overscan is in place but this equally applies to a 1080p signal.

What tried to make clear is the important thing is to distinguish between the input (480i/p, 576i/p, 720p, 1080i/p) and the screen which is fixed for a particular TV. The inputs a TV can accept are not affected by the display though it is more likely that a 1080 line TV will be able to accept a 1080p input.

Thanks again.

[Mike_1101]

Oh dear I wasn't aiming to start a big argument!

Having had this set for a few days, it is a clear improvement on the old CRT so no going back. I do think it's important to go through the settings and set them to what YOU find acceptable. This is why I did not like the sets I saw previously.

I have also sorted out the issue of poor freeview pictures by reconnecting the external freeview box I used before. I know, it's one of the much maligned Silvercrest / COMAG boxes from Lidl, but it does deliver a smoother and more detailed picture than the built in tuner. Not a massive difference but enough to notice.

[Slipstreem]

I wouldn't worry about it, Mike. This is a forum, so it's been more of a debate than an argument.

I know what you mean about internal versus external when it comes to some Freeview receivers too. My 32" AOC TV/monitor was bought primarily as a big monitor to go with my PC media centre that has its own Freeview card. The idea was to use the TV for live viewing and the PC as a PVR, although I was happy to do my live viewing via the PC if needs be.

It was just as well really as, even though the AOC works absolutely brilliantly as a VGA monitor, the internal Freeview receiver is truly awful. I've now picked up a second-hand Goodmans GDB9 (much maligned for being a terrible Freeview box) and the picture quality from that via SCART matches that from the PC media centre via VGA, so I now have my "twin-tuner" behaviour returned as originally intended.

We're not the only ones to find this though as my brother had to do the same with his £600 Panasonic LCD TV and a friend had to do the same with his £750 Toshiba. Shock! Horror!

It certainly makes a person wonder why some TV manufacturers scrimp so badly on the internal Freeview receiver when a standalone one that outperforms the internal one by a country mile only costs a miniscule fraction of the cost of the entire TV.

Anyway, ignore the squabbles on the forum as we all stand to learn something from them. Enjoy your new TV.

[Mike_1101]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slipstreem

I wouldn't worry about it, Mike. This is a forum, so it's been more of a debate than an argument.

I know what you mean about internal versus external when it comes to some Freeview receivers too. My 32" AOC TV/monitor was bought primarily as a big monitor to go with my PC media centre that has its own Freeview card. The idea was to use the TV for live viewing and the PC as a PVR, although I was happy to do my live viewing via the PC if needs be.

It was just as well really as, even though the AOC works absolutely brilliantly as a VGA monitor, the internal Freeview receiver is truly awful. I've now picked up a second-hand Goodmans GDB9 (much maligned for being a terrible Freeview box) and the picture quality from that via SCART matches that from the PC media centre via VGA, so I now have my "twin-tuner" behaviour returned as originally intended.

We're not the only ones to find this though as my brother had to do the same with his £600 Panasonic LCD TV and a friend had to do the same with his £750 Toshiba. Shock! Horror!

It certainly makes a person wonder why some TV manufacturers scrimp so badly on the internal Freeview receiver when a standalone one that outperforms the internal one by a country mile only costs a miniscule fraction of the cost of the entire TV.

Anyway, ignore the squabbles on the forum as we all stand to learn something from them. Enjoy your new TV.

I wasn't worried, I have a thick skin!

[Mike_1101]

According to http://reviews.cnet.co.uk/television...90639-2,00.htm , it originally cost £1200 and I paid less than £600 so I'm not complaining.

This is the feature I really like - "The 100Hz feature is so effective, it gives movies a TV show feel. If you're a purist who prefers to watch movies with their atmospheric motion effects, you'll leave it off. If you like smooth, judder free motion, this is the best system of its kind we've seen."