I hear what you say, but I don't agree with you 100%. Bob_Cat states his position or what he knows and then won't be drawn on the subject. He refuses to let us tease info out of him when he can't give us info or, for whatever reason, doesn't want to. He was quite happy to set somebody straight recently about the position of the iCord etc.

He's in a classic situation where he has to take what we throw at him (good or bad), but he has to give a considered response as an employee of a company. As I remember, he took a fair amount of abuse when their original HD box went live and went AWOL for a short while; people then realised just how valuable it is to have somebody like him (or is it her? Roberta Catherine!) about.

I do appreciate your point, and I thank bob_cat for taking the time to release drops of information on behalf of Humax.. I am sure he is sincere too..

However, in the over 3 months I have been following this forum. The information he has been giving has been next to useless - what exactly has he told us apart from some time in the future we will get Iplayer functionality? ummm virtually zero??

Patrick

Bob_Cat doesn't HAVE to tell us anything on here. This is not an official Humax forum and I think it is very good of him to take the trouble to give us what information he can. I believe that he is in a very difficult position.

Also, remember, that both he and other Humax employees monitor the site for the issues of the product and relay them back to Support. I'm sure that's not easy, cutting through all the moaning and irrelevant posts to get the important facts that the engineers can address.

If I remember rightly, sometime ago B_C left the site because he got fed up with the crap that was going on. Let's not push him away again and be grateful for the snippets of information he can give us!

[Another very helpful poster (a Beta user I believe) left the site for the very same reason] I know this is a public forum and and it seems to be the norm for people to be possibly harsher than they would in the real world, but that's no excuse to be so rude sometimes. (which is more a general comment on the whole site )

Well I do try not to be rude although I think robust comments are to be expected with the state this product was released in and the slow release of fixes.... however, I think it's rude to sell a product and then have for example, an email support address which is rarely replied to. Communication does seem to be a weakness with Humax.

In many ways I certainly support what you are saying about bob_cat but I honestly would expect more info from him. He must have estimated project completion dates. I would think that the reason he doesn't give them is because of previous slippage, they do have a big task to do and basically from overseas!? What's wrong with letting us know albeit "tentatively" the state of progress? I would not expect dates/features to be cast in stone obviously things "happen" along the way to cause changes.

I am sure there would possibly be the risk of raising expectations but on balance if it was made clear about the nature of the information it would be a positive thing worth doing..

Patrick

For the Inverto owners amongst us, anyone getting a deja-vu feeling here? Bob_Cat = The Special One or John. Same process all over again.

Let's see if we end up with the same result!

I think the quicker that Humax get some competition for their PVR the better.

If 2 or 3 other companies had released freesat PVR's at the same time as HUMAX then you can guarantee that there would have been some firmware updates well before now.

The lack of competition is a major factor in the slow (or should i say NO) firmware releases.

Potentially a lot. All publicly quoted companies have to be careful what information they release. Such statements can be read by investers and influence the share price.

Even private companies can suffer if the competition gets wind of something or a supplier realises that a big order might be imminent.

Any sensible company will have a policy in place and communicated to employees. I think Bob_cat is behaving in a very professional and understandable way.

Jobs can be lost and companies ruined by careless release of information.

I definitely agree there and those are very good points you have mentioned which is why I was very careful with my phrasing about what I expect or hope for..

Another side to though it is that they surely also have to balance the need for competitive advantage and release of information with the jobs that could be lost if they produce a product which shall we say "could do better!"?

I'm not expecting any ground breaking announcement of new technology etc from bob_cat with this product as the release will probably be mostly bug fixing and I hope UI improvements ..

No one outside Humax has the slightest idea when the firmware will come, I think the customer should be treated better.

I don't think we even need to know much detail of what is going to be in it.. just when(ish)

Anyway just my two penny worth..

Patrick

Yeah, it's tricky with consumer goods. It's also tricky when customers are chomping at the bit because of defects.

As regards competition being good - meh. There's been competition in the Freeview market for a long time and it hasn't done much for quality

It cannot be easy for Bob_Cat, he is not a free agent to post as he sees fit.

I can see this from both sides. I work in software development and have firsthand knowledge of the danger of publishing a release schedule. Getting software shipped is difficult enough without being screamed at. At this stage I would much rather that Humax concentrated on sorting out the issues rather than rushing out a release.

Having said that, this box doesn't really hack it as a consumer item, it simply isn't reliable enough. I have one in my attic, switched off, and there it will remain until a software release fixes the main issues. Pity really, as it means I will continue to pay Sky for two subscriptions and won't be recommending the product to family and friends.

I don't really get this. My HDR works just fine , it does the main function of what it is neede to do you go to the EPG you select a program. It records it, you watch it at a time that is good for you.

Its certainly 1000% more reliable than a video recorder.

I agreed with you right up to this point! You must have had a poor VCR. I admit that Sky boxes, the Humax et al. are EASIER to record with than a VCR, but the VCRs I had over the years only failed due to user error. VCRs were closer to what I would class as "appliances" due to their (relative) simplicity.

Agreed. It's one of my pet complaints about modern consumer electronics. Too many of them (and PVRs are the worst offenders) suffer from bugs.

I'm a software engineer and I don't buy the excuse that it's because they are too complicated. It's because the companies making them don't/won't pay enough to get decent software written. The ability to update firmware at the consumer's premises is not being used to add features - it's being used as an excuse for not doing the job properly in the first place.

Ignore if this doesnt apply to the mass. Stop hassling Bob_Cat, he is a valueable knowledge resource and contributer to this forum. If you have issues with your Humax STB, stop whining and contact Support directly.
Dont bite the hand...

I too am (or was) a software engineer, and in my experience the user never uses the 'product' in the way the designer intended. So you always get feedback about "it doesn’t work" when they mean "it won't do what I want it to". Some of this is bad training, some bad specification, some bugs that slipped through, and some a change in the marked between conception and delivery.

In my experience also, a developer/tested never had as much time as they would like to 'perfect' thier product due to commercial pressures to deliver (something) against contract and argue the support costs later. Most software engineers would never deliver anything if they were not under these pressures, as 'just one more tweak' will always make it perfect.

I have no idea about the Humax process so I would not want to criticise it. What I do know is that much of their work was done against a specification for a service (freesat) that was itself under development, others did not want to touch (hence only Humax have a product at all), and is not necessarily implemented in a consistent manner (the broadcasters and their metadata). Even dear aunty BBC can't turn of the encription flag for some HD broadcasts (or so they say) hence the whole channel (on freesat) is encrypted. But we still blame Humax that we can't 'archive' HD programs (in freesat mode).

The fact that it works as well as it does in these circumstances is something Humax can be proud of. The delay in getting out the update to fix many of the quirks is not so commendable.

That's exactly my point. Right now, I can never be certain that a scheduled recording will happen. Mostly they do, sometimes they don't. I understand that some of these failures are the broadcasters fault. However, many are because the box now freezes about once a week (still picture on screen, with sound continuing). When its frozen, it doesn't record.

I also suspect that if I deleted recordings, did a full reset, whatever, it would most likely work OK for another while. I'm simply not prepared to do that - nor should it be necessary. On the times, now rare, that I want to experiment, I use a satellite TV card in a PC.

Were it not for the 400 mile round trip involved, I would have already returned the box to the retailer. As it is, I'll give it (one) more try if/when a software update is released.

(This post is no reflection on Bob_Cat whatsoever. I value his contribution and understand the constraints under which he operates.)

A box freezing is highly unlikely to be a firmware issue. If it were we would all suffer the same (like with the slow delete). It sounds like you have a faulty box which you should get exchanged. I understand your reluctance for the round trip, but your retailer (or even Humax) may do it by post. When I first got a 9200T it was faulty. I rang Humax support, tried what they suggested (full factory reset) but when that didn't work they just sent out a replacement before collecting the faulty one.

If you wait for the firmware to be upgraded, I suspect you will be bitterly disappointed when the box continues to freeze up.

Don't accept a faulty unit and expect a miracle patch. The real issues with the firmware are to do with the operation of the device, not the fundamentals.

Very true the box is possibly faulty, however I had a freezing box with very similar symptoms a few weeks ago and had about 5 freezes in the course of a week.

I was beginning to think I might have a faulty box but then reset the box 3 or 4 times turned it on and off etc, unfortunately I don't remember exactly what I did, but since then everything has been ok as far as random freezing is concerned. Fingers crossed.

Ok. It may well go wrong again but it is very possible there is something wrong somewhere with crash tidy up routines - data left around somewhere etc, which may possibly be corrected by a firmware fix.

on the otherhand... that new version of the firmware in newer boxes seems more stable..

Patrick

Yes, but is it the newer firmware, or the newer/different components in the newer boxes?

Time will tell, when we get the new firmware on "old" boxes.

Rgds.


Les.

I'd be surprised if it was hardware, much more likely a software issue IMO. A full power recycle always brings it back. However, to do that I have to take out a step ladder and go up to the attic. Mind you, my Sky HD box does freeze on occasion, too. However, its much easier to do a power recycle when the box is in front of you.

Out of interest why do you conclude that? We have the situation where only some boxes exhibit a problem, but they all (near enough) have the same firmware installed. The only difference between them is that each box is a unique combination of similar hardware components. If all boxes have the same symptom (eg. slow to delete) then I think that indicates firmware, but a random distribution of slighly different problems tends to indicate hardware (or a local environmental issues such as poor power supply).

One thing I learnt early on in my IT career (and I'm talking the early days of computing) is that, over time, software does not degrade, whereas hardware does. There is also the dreaded bathtub curve for hardware that says the likelyhood of failure when its new is fairly high. Once it beds in it gets very reliable until it gets old, when the incidence of failure rapidly increases again.

People with 'freezing' boxes almost certainly have a hardware related problem (that might go away with time if it's one component that may settle down - but don't count on it). My box does not have the problem, and I have one of the early ones (over the air upgraded to .02). Lots of other people have also said that their box just works.

... If you say so...and I too have years of experience of working in the software industry.

There are many low level firmware issues related to the device or ordinary software that could be a cause of the so called random problems/freezes people are getting. It's a complicated device!!

..so I'm sorry but I tend to disagree with your massive over generalisation "almost certainly" in this instance... I am sure you may be right in some cases.

However, I know that if I performed a certain actions on my box it would immediately freeze..this being the case is far from unique. Pages and pages on this site show that it would also happen to others.

Which equals bugs somewhere along the line.. I expect them to be fixed in the firmware release even though at the same time accept the possibility of being disappointed

...as for having differing opinions...hey that's life.. :sleep:


Patrick

Hi all,

Just for the record having read through all this, I have to say that Bob_Cat appears to be damned if he does & damned if he doesn't.

I think we are lucky as a community to have direct feedback from someone who obviously does care about our opinions, and who is directly involved with the project. Much of the current development and bug fixing which is being worked on will be as a direct result of our comments and discussions on this forum.

Peoples frustration is understandable, but it is important to support those who are undoubtedly fighting our corner.

Maybe it's just me, but I have so far found that the box does all it was designed to do and despite the fact that I bought not only for the HD functionality, but for the exciting prospects of iPlayer, I was also aware that this feature was "to be implemented at a later date".

I am as eager as anyone else for the next firmware release, but having waited this long, do not feel that it is worth pressing for an early update that may actually contain less improvements or bug fixes than would be the case if we just relax and let them do their thing.

Finally, thanks Bob_Cat for your continued support!

Regards to all

Nick

If it is a firmware issue, it is likely triggered by a particular set of circumstances and/or user activities. This has a number of implications:

1.It is not possible, and I don't say this lightly, to have a testing regime that covers every possible scenario (so-called 100% test coverage).
2.It is probable, with any complicated development, that issues will arise post software release.
3.The probability of issues arising is much greater when the scope of the development work is across many software tiers.*
4.It is easy to identify when one has a problem, not so easy to be certain that one hasn't one.

* With the Humax there are low level routines to deal with hardware interactions, a complex EPG which must interact with a sophisticated OTA data stream, a Graphical User Interface which must support a large heterogeneous user base, etc....... This represents software development at the more complex end of the scale. There is no viable test bed that could replicate every possible permutation and combination.


Software development has greatly increased in complexity since those early days. I agree that early software programs were far more reliable than the associated hardware. This was hardly surprising, much coding was in low level assembly language with, perhaps, a second level using a language such as 'C'. There is much public evidence to show that software is now the bigger concern. Modern software may not break, in the sense that hardware does, but performance certainly does decrease as times goes by. Equally, software does not degrade with time, in the sense that new defects arise. What does happen is that defects, already inherent in the solution, are manifested as unexpected behaviours.


And that hypothesis still holds today. However, the actual probability of an individual component actually failing has decreased substantially since those early days. There is a far better understanding of the causes of component failure, far better mechanisms for stress testing component samples and better manufacturing techniques for consumer electronics equipment.

Could you please list a step-by-step procedure of the exact actions you perform to get a freeze on your box. I have never had a freeze or lockup (and had mine since launch day) so I would be interested in peforming the exact same actions that cause yours and other peoples boxes to lockup (just out of curiosity and I suppose Bob_Cat and the software team would be interested if it is indeed repeatable on a number of boxes).

As an aside my ultra reliable freeview PVR froze and locked up several times over a period of a couple of days - this was fixed by removing the top and giving the hard drive IDE cable a firm push. I'd be tempted to whip the top off my Humax and give the connectors a firm push if mine was locking up - has anyone out there tried this to see if it cures the freezes and lockups?

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying there isn't the possibilty of serious bugs in the firmware causing lockups and freezing but it is more likely to be a hardware issue. I work in safety critical software and hardware development so I am used to environments where hardware is vibrated and temperature cycled for days on end during PAT testing and it is surprising how many seemingly identical units perform differently during testing (especially very early production batches).