aha, that sounds ace

i've been knocked back from trying barf with miss.

as a trial run, to gague what she was interested in, i got her some turkey steaks, which she loved raw on it's own
tried to get her to eat some veg with it but she wasn;t having any of it. in the end i ended up cooking it & hiding it all in gravy to get it in her :-/
the next day she wouldn;t go near her liver, raw or cooked, she picked up a bit of it, shook her head and left it in the hallway where she went and ate a few bits of beta with a sad look on her face instead.
turned her nose up at fish the day after that, cooked it, she still turned her nose up.

i also can;t get it through to my mother that what she's feeding her is slowly killing her (stewed steak every day) "but she likes it"
:-/ i don't know what to do any more, i can;t get anywhere to buy her the things i need to feed her fresh, let alone raw, i finish college at 4.15 every day

can dogs feed off of negative vibes my mother has towards food & will that put her off?

i bought her a tray of nature diet a while back, which she was happily eating, until my mother walked in & said, "she won;t eat that" and it sat there forever more

it's just so frustrating, miss is old and not very active, but my maw gives her chew after chew after chew and god knows what else...

Hard one xdow.

I'm a little ashamed to say it took a major barney with OH to get him to weigh the dogs breakfast when they were on Kibble. I showed him internet site after internet site to show the proper 'feel but can't see the ribs' and defined tuck up that a fit dog has before he admitted he was over feeding.

The term 'cognitive dissonance' springs to mind. Where a new idea, no matter how good, means that what you believe/are doing is wrong causes mental discomfort. It is a hard thing to accept.

Ironically, now OH is a bigger raw convert than me. I prepare breakfast the night before for OH or child to feed and I or child give the evening meal so it is convenient for OH. But he has now taken an interest and will question if they need more muscle meat, are pork ribs OK for Murphy, is there anything other than chicken wings for the little ones, how much veg should we feed.

This has been down to knowledge.

A lot of people think it is a fad, and an unnecessary one at that. A lot of people worry about chocking and perforations - unfounded. A lot of people worry about germs - unfounded. Knowledge is the answer.

As for Miss - apparently some dogs who aren't used to Raw balk at it. Searing the skin in a fry pan can encourage them - only the skin mind. If you were used to McDonalds, what would it take for you to eat tartare?

For veggie, add Salmon oil or a sardine when you liquidise the veg. Or a bit of liver. Or live yougurt. Easy to eat, tasty.

Could your mum think you are criticizing her? I can't see any other reason for rejecting Nature Diet.

Miss is an old girl. If she won't take raw, don't worry too much. Commercial food is adequate.

she's not on any real dog food though... she's on stewed steak from a can, and pre cooked chicken breasts (salt water tumbled and steamed ones)
interspersed (only recently by me) with heart, liver and fish, with added veg
this is why i want to try it, she's happy to take raw cubed beef and mice meat from you
also turkey and we very nearly had some raw heart last week, so she is sort of interested in it.

she used to be on cesar, until they changed their recipe, when she flat out refused to eat it, or other brands of wet food we tried, she picks at dry food (beta & bakers) but doesn;t just eat that (if she did, that's what she would be on)


i was talking to mam in the car the other night, she was saying that vets don;t agree with BARF, nor do breeders
i said to her to go ask them about what she's currently feeding miss in comparison and she told me to shut up, so... you're probably right.

she's a funny old dog when it comes to food. mad one for mushy peas and tomato based sauces, both are more than likely terrible for her
the nature diet she would eat in cut blocks straight from the fridge, but not just mashed up, or warm
i'll try out the oils and stuff in veg, could be a step forward i hadn't thought of

i think i just really need to get down into it, go out buy a load of stuff and try again to see what she will take, for now she'll not be going full blown onto it, i want to find out what she will take from me first
just that if she stops eating she will have a bad belly

i think it's just a case of it being really disheartening when someone is dead set against what you're doing

i'm geared up to get back into this now, thanks

StressMonkey ~ you are going great guns with the BARF feeding! Good on you. Have you tried oxtail for your cresties? Tesco sometimes have packs with a mixture of different sized pieces suitable for all sized dogs. It's not particularly cheap so mine have it as a treat sometimes. I asked the butcher if he could get oxtail & said I'd take all the small pieces that no-one else wants so he lets me have it cheaper. The pork ribs I get are quite small too & my friend feeds them to her elderly Jack Russell.

xdow ~ don't give up yet. Even just giving your dog some raw food & bones will be better than nothing. I'm surprised your mum thinks that stewed steak & pre-cooked chicken breasts are better than Nature Diet! The additives in tinned meat & the lack of good quality meat makes it rubbish for dogs. If your dog likes mushy peas & tomato based sauces, what about using a bit of these mixed with the raw meat & veggies then gradually increasing the proportion of raw food over a few weeks?

As StressMonkey says, sometimes just searing the raw meat in a dry pan can make it more palatable. With the offal I just blanch it in a pan of boiling water then take it straight out & drain it. It's still raw in the middle so is better than totally cooked offal & my dogs prefer it this way.

I was a bit naughty on Monday as I let the dogs have the cooked bone from our sunday roast leg of lamb. They loved it but I have to watch them all the time as I worry about the cooked bones splintering ~ not something I generally recommend!

As far as vets' opinions on raw feeding go, most vet practices promote certain brands that you don't often get in pet shops or supermarkets, i.e. Hills, Science Plan, Royal Canin etc. They have a vested interest in selling us this food as they get rewarded with new computers, vet equipment etc for selling this food. No wonder they don't want us feeding BARF stuff! Some vets will tell you about the times they've had to remove bone splinters from a dog's teeth. But they don't tell you about the number of clients they have whose dogs are on steroids, have dreadful allergies, need constant dentals etc.

I think BARF diets are something we have to research & make our own minds up about & we have to be prepared to face the fact that we will come in for some criticism ~ but BARF feeding makes sense to me & I've seen the benefits in my own dogs & numerous other dogs so I won't be disuaded now.

StessMonkey ~ I've also had remarks from my mother & OH about the care & attention I give to the dogs food but then I dish up yet another ready meal or beans on toast for us!! It's just that my OH is such a fussy eater that I can't be bothered to spend hours preparing his food only for him to tturn his nose up. Anyway he's a grown-up & quite able to work out for himself that the rubbish he eats is no good for him!

Smaller pork ribs went down a treat - though Buffy tried to swallow hers whole - a 4 inch rib in a 11 inch long crestie!! When that didn't work, she managed to crunch it

It is funny how they check each others bowls/crates after dinner - they never did it after Kibble or even Nature Diet. I mean, there is NO chance any of them has left even a scrap, but they still check

******

Today's issue is mess - Murphy had a whole heart yesterday. Normally he is pretty good - eats out of his bowl and at least over his feeding mat. But the heart was hard work!! And he decided to carry it around a bit - eating off the rug in the end

I know there isn't really a solution - I'm not going to make him eat in the kitchen or outside. Just thought I'd mention it.

Cresties aren't a problem - they eat in their crates - Hansel has some food possession issues (only with the other dogs - never people) and Murphy will mither Buffy though he'd never take her food. And Buffy will take Murphy's food, and he lets her. Big old softy

Ooops! Raw hearts being carried round the house ~ not much fun! I admit that I cut up the offal for my dogs so they just eat it in bite sized lumps but it is obviously better if they rip & chew larger pieces.

When I first introduced bones, I fed them in the garden so no problems (unless female lab decides to bury a bone in the flower bed & guard it all evening ~ she won't come in so we have to "unbury" the bone & let her see we've thrown it away). In the winter or if the weather's bad, I've always put an old duvet cover on the floor & they eat their bones on that & then the cover goes straight in the washing machine. The dogs have been really good about keeping the bones on the cover. But the ground floor of my house is completely tiled so even if they dragged a bone around, there's no harm done. I think the dogs quickly discovered that bones slide around on tiles & they are much easier to control on the cover!

ours love heart as well our staffie eats them whole but our scottie likes them cut up - we went shopping the other night and got some reduced priced salmon filltes which they loved, reduced rabbit our scottie loved but it stunk & some reduced quails eggs which they thought were the best things since sliced bread

have had our miss on pork ribs over the last couple of days, so far, no broken teeth or bleeding gums, which was my main worry with her

we had a small piece of a chicken wing today, cut off with scissors then crunched up by her, but we weren;t very keen on it, so the rest of that went to jake and we had a heart instead, cut into slithers (she's a lady, wouldn't ever DREAM of ripping apart the whole thing! )
that went down well, unfortunately i'm going on holiday for a week on wednesday and my mother is looking after her the whole time so she'll be eating nothing but rubbish for a week while i'm gone
she wouldn;t even add the veggies i whizzed up to her beef before giving her it

she still really doesn;t agree with what i;m doing at all

spoke too soon on the heart, it's just made its way back up

That won't impress your mum then!!

Would you mum be prepared to read a book on the benefits of raw feeding & the downside of commercial pet foods to change her mind? Tom Lonsdale's Raw Meaty Bones is an easy read.

it definitely wont, it was on her bedroom carpet!

i'm not sure if she would, i'll track down a copy and try her though, thanks for the recommendation

i think i might go down the route of home cooking her food for a while, just give her a little raw something every other day or so...
still to gauge what she'll take, but also cooking something is a good way to hide the mulched up veg and the only way i found which worked (adding it raw after the main bulk has cooked and cooled)

she's well away on ribs at the moment, (well, so long as you hold them for her at first ) that was a success story
and everything else i tried stayed down, just the heart that's been a problem, i've got another one in the fridge that i'll freeze & cook her sometime when i get back

would feeding her some raw, some cooked pose any problem?
as this is the only way i found to get veg into her which works
would she still be getting some benefit?

also, i need to make the tins of beef in the cupboard disappear somehow but i can;t even bring myself to eat them so i don;t know what to do with them!
any ideas for that?

I'm not a qualified nutritionist but I can't see any problem with mixing in a bit of raw food with cooked food. If this helps get the veggies down your dogs then I'd do the same.

How to make tins of meat disappear is not a problem I expected to see here but what about telling your mum that you gave it to the dog already (when she's not around) & then sneaking the dog a "proper" dinner? Alternatively could you use the tinned stuff over 2 or 3 days by mixing it with some raw meat & veg? This would have the benefit of giving the dogs something that they like & are familiar with but gradually introducing the raw food?

Or, if you are going away, could you prepare the dogs' meals in advance (mixing a bit of tinned meat with the raw meat & veg) & freezing it in portion sizes for your mum to feed?

she wouldn't go for it, i'll just have to try again when i get back, i literally go tomorrow night so i don;t have the time to prepare anything anyway

to be fair, her nutritional needs at the moment definitely are not being met, asda smart price isn;t good for anyone...
so i'm thinking anything i could do with veggies would be at least a little better for her than poor quality meat & god knows what else is in there, it won;t be ideal, but it won't do her any harm either

as for mam, she seems to be less cheezed off when i cook her food myself, rather than giving her it raw
which i really don't get, as she even saw how much she was enjoying her ribs, and the turkey :-/

it's half term when i get back so i'll be able to go out & do a good big shop for different bits & pieces so i'll definitely try again then

i'll be out of this stage of feeling defeated again by then hopefully, too so it'll seem easier again

Enjoy your holiday xdow

Miss is an old girl as I recall. BARF might be better for her - a good commercial might be better. But another week or two on what she is used to won't hurt.

************

EGGS!!!!

Eggs is on the list of RAW foods - thought it would be an easy meal. No siree!!

First, they looked at me like I was insane. What are these round things and where is our dinner? So I cracked them - just a little crack, not even to through the membrane.

At this point Hansel caught on.

Buffy and Murphy still looked like I was insane. A further poke and Buffy's egg was broken - and she loved the eggy goodness, shell and all.

Murphy, carried his first egg round the room, dripping a thick trail of egg white. Then he tried to eat the carpet

Guess who ended up with lightly scrambled eggs? Clue - it wasn't me

It's good really bless him - gave up his eggs to me even after realizing they were vaguely food.

Think about it logically though - how could it possibly be detrimental?


That's one heck of a high salt diet for any dog. It will be doing her kidneys no good at all and probably some damage, I'm afraid.

That's because they are all conditioned to promote and use processed foods - vets in training are even sent on 'nutrition' courses which are sponsored by.. processed food manufacturers.

'ken
this is why i'm getting so mad with my mother for still giving her it & immediately poo-pooing anything that could be better for her

"but she likes it" doesn't cut it with me any more.

StressMonkey ~ I love your story about eggs ~ that certainly strikes a chord with me

My last dog was on a BARF diet so I gave him a whole egg in its shell one day to see what he'd do. He thought it was a new ball so he took it in his mouth, threw it up in the air & the expression on his face when it hit the patio & smashed into a gooey mess was a picture! He licked the patio clean though & ate all the shell too. Next time he carefully took the egg from me, carefully laid it on the patio & then stood back to wait for the egg to "hatch". I ended up having to break it open for him!!

My current dogs & cats won't eat raw egg at all, which is a real shame but they all like lightly poached or boiled eggs so I have to serve them up partly cooked.

Can't you print some stuff t'net about high salt diets etc and show it to her? Have a chat with your vet and get his assurance to pass on to her that feeding tinned foodstuff and processed chicken like that is a no--no health wise?

i'll give it a go, not sure if it will do any good though
basically, my mother is a fool. for many things.
at this point to be honest i'd even prefer it if she went onto some brand of dog food again, rather than this crap
but y'know, "she doesn't like it"

A self bump

Two months on and I have to say I am a total convert.

Physically, Han and Murphy haven't changed much, although Murphy has lost weight to the point he is now on a maintenance level of food. But I could have done that on commercial food or a home cooked diet. That said, Murphy's teeth are cleaner. There were patches of tartare - nothing major for a eleven/twelve year old dog but these have reduced. And they both seem to have more energy, but they are having longer walks and I am not immune to observer bias.

However - Buffy. What a change!! What little hair she has (She is almost a 'true hairless' Chinese Crested) was brittle and dry, needed a rinse after each walk yet still scatched at her skin and chewed her feet. Often had scratches on her skin and blemishes. She would wear Tees or PJs to protect her and take piriton to ease her itching.

Her hair is now soft and starting to thicken. She is growing hair in places she hasn't since a pup. She hasn't needed a Tee or Piriton in weeks. When she does scratch, it is a normal dog scratch, not the furious, vicious scratching she used to.

And all three seem happier. Again, could be observer bias. But.... Plus they seem to 'love' us more (as in they are more attentive and show more affection - I know it is just that our resourse potential has increased)

And if I want a peaceful evening, Ox tail can take over an hour for the Cresties to eat Even takes Murphy ten minutes or so

Down side?

Occationally Han will regurgitate a chicken wing and re-eat. It doesn't seem to be doing him harm, but it is disgusting and not nice.

Murphy nearly choked on a chicken wing - a firm slap to the back sorted him.

Balancing the Cresties weight is more difficult. Buffy has lost the excess weight, but went too far the other way. Han also lost weight even though he was already at ideal. Easily remedied by feeding more food, but something anyone switching to BARF would need to watch IMO, especially with Toy dogs.

But the worst downside........

Tripe farts and fishy poo (Why is there no vomit smilie!!)

Fantastic StressMonkey ~ I'm so glad to hear of successes with BARF feeding, especially teeth & itchy skin problems for which there's already a lot of anecdotal evidence.

I assume any weight loss can be easily remedied by just increasing the quantity you feed (or even using a few extra treats for training).

Have you tried lamb shanks? Tesco do some reasonably priced ones (about £2.50 for 2) & they have a lot of lean meat on them plus the bone through the middle which my dogs split open to get at the marrow. I sometimes have a bit of trouble with oxtail as Barney has a tendency to swallow the small bits whole & then bring them up again in the middle of the night.

I wonder if they "love" you more because they are all feeling happier, heathier & fitter now?

How are you getting on with your cats & BARF feeding? I caught one of my cats nibbling at a left over bone the other morning so I'm going to get some chicken wings for her. She will eat small amounts of raw turkey mince but her main love is for anything fishy.

Have you reported the improvements to your vet? The more vets hear about BARF successes, perhaps they will be more willing to recommend it to other clients with similar prioblems?

If the weight loss is a problem try upping the calorie content a bit. Include a bit more meat fat, pork and lamb off-cut are fattier. Oily fish, although my two don't keep raw mackerel down, but have no problem with cooked fillets.

In fact I use a bit of mackerel fillets and skin to trigger an eating response if they are being fussy with something else like when I put some Natures Diet/Menu down.

having a bit of trouble with miss at the moment

i have actually started cooking her meals myself now, as she still won't consider raw offal and will only take small pieces of raw heart & meat
it's not ideal, but it's a step forward from what she was on

problem being with her is, i was giving her ribs raw, which she loved

i bought them from leeds a while ago, got quite a few as they were dirt cheap for rib racks, whacked them in the freezer, defrosted her one every couple of days
i ran out of them last week, bought her some more from tesco

which were much longer, problem being she won;t eat the bones any more, just pulls off the meat

thing i have noticed with these ribs are they are a much rounder bone - and i suspect harder to bite through?
in fact, jake has also not shown an interest in these ones, other than pulling off meat & taking a little off the ends

i've contemplated giving them a good whack with a hammer (the ribs, not the dogs! ), but i'm not entirely convinced it would be helpful, or advisable in any way
unless anyone here can offer suggestions?

yes it is a good idea. A whack with a hammer would break it open and reveal the juicy marrow inside, encouraging her to chow down

cool, thanks