Originally Posted by Tass:
“
Things don't always come across quite as meant when posting. I did understand exactly what you meant, thought it was funny and knew you were joking, but struck me (
) as amusingly ironic to joke about solving one problem with a solution, that had you not been joking, could have caused a different problem 
”
“
Things don't always come across quite as meant when posting. I did understand exactly what you meant, thought it was funny and knew you were joking, but struck me () as amusingly ironic to joke about solving one problem with a solution, that had you not been joking, could have caused a different problem ”
LOL I get you now, it takes a while for things to sink in with me sometimes
I thought you were being serious and thought you thought I was being serious
Originally Posted by wilhemina:
“With hindsight perhaps I should have explained a bit more about my last post.
If you think that using rattle cans, water pistols etc is not punishment, you are wrong. Of course they are punishments ~ what else could they possibly be? The fact that you then praise your dog from stopping whatever it was doing, does not detract from the fact that the aversive thing you used first was a punishment. What do you think that the dog learns from your behaviour? That sometimes you are nice & sometimes you are scary.
If you think about the perils of using punishment & how difficult it is to get wrong, the rattle can approach to copraphagia could fall down very easily.
Firstly is the noise immediate? Do you ALWAYS have the rattle can to hand whenever your dog is about to eat poo? What if you are out on a walk, what if your dog is the bottom of the garden, what if you are in another room when he raids the litter tray?
Second, does the noise happen EVERY time? What if your dog eats the cat's poo when you are out, or if you are distracted at the time & don't notice?
Thirdly, if you are the person shaking the rattle can, you become the discriminative stimulus for the noise, i.e. it only happens when you are there so your dog learns only to raid the cat litter in your absence.
Fourthly, has Tass has said, is the noise sufficient punishment to stop what is a self-rewarding behaviour when the dog is so highly motivated to eat poo?
Fifthly, does a loud noise fit the crime? There is probably insufficent association between eating poo & a loud noise for the dog to make this association anyway.
The unwanted result of using punishment in this context could well result in the dog becoming wary, if not scared of you. And he may still practice copraphagia but only if you are not around.
Sorry this post is not a more constructive approach to stopping copraphagia. I've got to go out now but I'll try to come up with alternative approaches later.”
“With hindsight perhaps I should have explained a bit more about my last post.
If you think that using rattle cans, water pistols etc is not punishment, you are wrong. Of course they are punishments ~ what else could they possibly be? The fact that you then praise your dog from stopping whatever it was doing, does not detract from the fact that the aversive thing you used first was a punishment. What do you think that the dog learns from your behaviour? That sometimes you are nice & sometimes you are scary.
If you think about the perils of using punishment & how difficult it is to get wrong, the rattle can approach to copraphagia could fall down very easily.
Firstly is the noise immediate? Do you ALWAYS have the rattle can to hand whenever your dog is about to eat poo? What if you are out on a walk, what if your dog is the bottom of the garden, what if you are in another room when he raids the litter tray?
Second, does the noise happen EVERY time? What if your dog eats the cat's poo when you are out, or if you are distracted at the time & don't notice?
Thirdly, if you are the person shaking the rattle can, you become the discriminative stimulus for the noise, i.e. it only happens when you are there so your dog learns only to raid the cat litter in your absence.
Fourthly, has Tass has said, is the noise sufficient punishment to stop what is a self-rewarding behaviour when the dog is so highly motivated to eat poo?
Fifthly, does a loud noise fit the crime? There is probably insufficent association between eating poo & a loud noise for the dog to make this association anyway.
The unwanted result of using punishment in this context could well result in the dog becoming wary, if not scared of you. And he may still practice copraphagia but only if you are not around.
Sorry this post is not a more constructive approach to stopping copraphagia. I've got to go out now but I'll try to come up with alternative approaches later.”
Excellent and interesting post wilhemina, I can see where you are coming from and I am definately open to suggestions. In hind sight the bold part of your post makes perfect sense although at present if I am not around then he is in his crate. I am the only one that walks him also. I don't understand why a vet and also a couple of my friends who work with dog trainers every day would advocate this method if it is a cruel punishment. I would never use it as a punishment just as a way of making him stop and listen so I can give the command. My vet has also suggested squirting him with water which i'm not keen on. He has a perfect leave command at all other times to the point that if I place a treat or toy on the floor and say leave it he runs backwards, lies down and then crawls backwards away from it. He's such a sweet little boy and is always eager to learn new things. I just can't have him eating poo, not because it grosses me out, but because of the risks to his health. I have trained alot of dogs and puppies when I worked at the rescue center and my old dog often placed top three at obediance and agility competitions. I have never had a problem discouraging this behaviour in any other dog so its pretty alien to me that not only is he still doing it, hes becoming more insistant and crafty while doing so. BTW I haven't used the pennies in a tin yet with any dog as it is a last resort.
