No it doesn't.

Rgds.

Les.

Bummer, must be thinking of something else then

Nigel,
You must be thinking of something else... it is an oft requested feature for the HDR.
The display is the same brightness as my amp on max (an Onkyo which has 3 settings - I have it on the dimmest)

[SNAP]
Last edited by tv-Addict : 28-07-2009 at 13:24

The problem I have is this:

1. Humax is "off" but recording something.
2. TV is off.
3. Turn TV on, already on HDMI 2 (for Humax).
5. Picture is blank.
6. Switch to HDMI 1 then back to 2 and all is OK.

It's not a big issue but is confusing for visitors and it shouldn't be.

I do not think it's a Panny issue from what I've read elsewhere on the forum.

On the contrary. The one thing we can say for certain about the Panny TVs is that they don't psychically sense when another component is booting, and guess which input to magically jump to.

If the TV is switching to an input that the Humax is connected to, then it must be doing so because it has received some kind of signal on that input.

Maybe the Humax isn't specifically raising the HDMI-CEC pin. Maybe the Panny is to aggressively switching inputs when it detects a 'plain' signal on the hdmi port.

But, it's still a fair question to ask why is the Humax sending *any* kind of signal down the HDMI port when it isn't a user requested power on? Unless you are actively turning on the PVR (ie. to watch something), then there is an argument to say that absolutely NO signal should be sent on any pin of the HDMI output.

I do not have a Panny TV, and I am not suffering the same problem (although I suppose routing through an AV amp helps as well). But I do see why this can be a significant problem, and why Humax should (if possible) make an adjustment to the behaviour of the Foxsat.

Depends on what you are doing, doesn't it? OK, if you are watching a DVD, you can just rewind the few seconds that you miss.

What if you are playing a console game though? The last thing you want when you've almost completed that really tricky level is to have the TV suddenly change inputs.

The bootloader which is starting the unit possibly doesn't know it is waking just for a recording because it is waking in general to figure out why it was woken.

We understand it might not be an ideal mode of operation, but I cannot confirm if this will be fixed. If you feel this is a fault then you may debate this issue with your retailer but this is the currently defined mode of operation.

Bob

This just means that responsibility for determining when to 'activate' the port is in the wrong piece of code.

Obviously a sensible programmer places the code fragment that performs some particular function in an area of code that is entered when the required information is available.

That is absolutely basic programming logic and if Humax can't sort it out they should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

Its sounds a bit to me as though BobCat is saying the Boot Loader programme is bought in, possibly under licence.

Tern,

Your glib response shows little consideration for facts to which you are not privy.

Constructive feedback is always accepted, and as always your comments are not constructive.

Bob

White-Knight, close: one point is that the boot loader is used in a wide range of products and the implications of a re-design are significant.

Il would appear that only the Panasonic TVs are affected. Having said that Nigel Goodwin has explained why they are affected when using the Humax Foxsat PVR. Strikes me that both Panasonic and Humax could be at fault.

If it was purely a Humax error. How come most of us with other TV's have no problems with this issue. I certainly don't have this or any other issue, nor do many others.

In fact the above is saying that is the way the Humax is designed,

Bob_Cat

I note that your comment is nothing but an ad hominem.

If you have a valid technical response to my observation then by all means let us hear it and decide if it has any merit.

If not, I stand by my assertion that anyone who designs a box in such a way that it activates a port that it has no business activating has designed said box in an incompetant and amateurish fashion.


You don't need to 'redesign' a boot loader to stop it accessing a port it has no need to. Simply remove (or bypass) the offending code.

Yes I must admit I would only expect the scart or HDMI outputs to become active only when the box is brought out of standby by the user.

Automan.

As explained repeatedly, ONLY Panasonic have this feature, so only Panasonics will be affected.


It's certainly possible, historically Humax have handled SCART sockets wrongly on timer recordings, so they perhaps handle HDMI sockets wrongly as well?.

To steal a common phrase, "it's a feature, not a fault" - in other words it's not a bug, because it's working as intended, just that the premise for the design was wrong in the first place.

I'll be firing off an email to Humax over the switching- i'd argue it is a fault, a poor design choice (although i'd certainly not question the knowledge of an employee of Humax who knows far more than I on the inner workings of the box).

There are many people with Panasonic TV's, I am one of those people.

Just because this problem doesn't affect your TV doesn't mean it isn't a problem. The fact that a Humax unit coming out of standby and invoking record, shouldn't cause the HDMI port to blank the TV picture.

This problem should be fixed, let me at the code I'll fix it.

What bootloader is being used, is it uboot?

I think you mean, "So far, only Panasonic TV's have been reported to be affected".

Not that that is particularly significant anyway as they are hardly a minor supplier.


So Humax have not only screwed up the HDMI and SCART handling on the Freesat HDR they are repeating a implementation fault that they have made before on other products.

They are seeming more and more incompetant by the day.


With all due respect this is one of the most nonsensical lines of resoning ever to afflict the human race. It started as a joke in the computer industry way back in they seventies and was never intended to be taken seriously by anyone of any intelligence.

Since then it's been used by various wideboys and some syconphantic observers to excuse implementation faults of various levels of egregiousness. (One of the most ludicrous being that iPhones could be induced to treat any phone number as an 'emergency' number thus rendering a stolen, locked, phone capable of calling any number at all - it was bizzare watching Apple sychophants defend that as a valid 'feature' [until Apple were forced to fix it ]).

This behaviour is a 'bug', plain and simple. The fact that Humax have not recognised and fixed it that over several product lines and two different port types does them no credit whatsoever. Particularly as they would have known in advance that their dodgy handling is going to be a major pain to a significant number of their customers.

If you had quoted all of that part of my post, you will see I had acknowledged your comments on Panasonic TVs
Its all rather irrelavent as BOB_CAT is saying he cannot confirm the feature will be altered , and to contact your supplier if anybody has any complaints.

Reading some posts there is a simple workaround by using a different HDMI port on a Panasonic, or a simple switch on and off.

Not aimed at you Nigel, its just that this and many threads descend into Bashing Humax, I feel it is unjustified when only one make of TV Pansonic is affected by the problem being discussed here..

Most of the Humax bashing actually comes about because there is a small core of Humax 'apologists' who wade into every thread where anyone criticises Humax to mount defences ranging from good to laughable but always having the end result of vastly increasing the 'bashing' posts.

For me, the salient points are there.

1) First and foremost Humax have produced a box that works very well for most of the people most of the time.

2) It has some (many) notable bugs and the UI is clunky and looks as if it was designed by an incomptant CS student on day release.

3) They have failed to produce a timely update despite having a reputation for being responsive to customer issues on other products.

4) Their communications in relation to the supposed update have been execrable. Again, some manufacturers are completely uncommunicative but Humax produce premium priced products and one of the tings one expects from premium priced products is top class CS (whereas, apart from the lack of update or communication relating to update, there have been several posters who have reported Humax simply ignoring them if their problems have not yielded a straightforward solution.) I feel we are entitled to expect considerably better than Humax have managed so far.

It may be just Panasonic that is affected at the moment, but it would appear that they are the ones who are correctly implementing the HDMI-CEC specification. It is to be expected that other TV manufacturers should follow Panasonic's lead and improve their compatibility with the HDMI standard over time which would then exacerbate the problem with Humax compatibility.

Humax therefore need to fix this before the problem gets worse. I, like some others on this thread, find it difficult to understand how Humax can continue to propagate this same problem between different products within their range.


Graham.

So maybe I'm understanding what you're saying now. If you're watching a DVD and the Humax boots it changes channel away from what you're watching to tv, right? I can understand that would be annoying.


I think Tern it might not be quite so simple. Being a general loader, its highly unlikely there's a line of code that says "make pin 8 go high". It sounds more as though it probably has no restriction on what pins go high and what doesn't when it starts. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't send all pins high, its just that pin 8 is sensed in going high by the Panasonic. In which case it might be that significant parts of the loader have to be redesigned in order to control the behaviour to stop voltages being sent to the pins.

That said, if the auto switching is seen on the Panasonic is something we're going to see implemented by many other manufacturers, it might be Humax have to reconsider a redesign in the long term.

Personally, I hope auto switching isn't adopted across the board because it seems far more trouble than its worth. After all what's the difficulty in pressing a single button if you change sources? Its only like changing channel. You can keep auto switching off tv's for me.

I agree there could be a problem with uncontrolled spikes or other anomalies at startup - they certainly don't damp the audio out which causes a loud a loud click on startup (and also a thump on shutdown). That is just bad design.

It was Bob_Cat who mentioned the loader so I assumed that he was saying that they knew that was where the problem lay but that they could not easily fix it (for example they may have ended up with fragile, badly documented, code written by a specialist contractor or someone who has since left).

I actually think it's more likely to be sloppily designed hardware where they just don't nail down the startup conditions and the boot loader is a bit of a red herring.


I absolutely agree.

The number of people who have problems even with SCART systems auto switching leads me to think they are trying to be 'too clever by half'.

This effects my sharp 39" 100hz TV which was a new model last year.

Bob Cat, its very annoying that the box basically becomes unusable for watching when you come home and its recording something. Having had one from day one to me its the only issue I really have with it.

I would suggest your engineers need to look at the coding to see why coming out of standby when in recoring mode it doesn't enable the HDMI output as to compared to coming out of standby when no recording is active.

As this effected both Sharp and Panasonic TV's it highly suggestive that others are effected. You must be able to reproduce this in a test envirement so shouldn't be hard to resolve.

Sadbiker, if the HDR is recording when you come home, try switching the HDR on before you turn the TV on. Works for me.

(this is a separate but possibly related bug to the hdmi autoswitching - the Humax negotiates the HDMI connection differently when going from recording to on than it does when going from standby to on. The latter works; the former doesn't)

Agreed. I am one of the many whose box works . No lock up, failed recordings .

. The only problem I have had is an occasional green screen when handshaking with HDMI. Now realised it clears by itself.

The EPG is common (With minor differences) to all announced Freesat PVRs. Sagem, Goodmans included,.This must be a Freesat+ requirement. The rest of the interface is "Different" at best. It is not to my liking, however the more I use it, the easier it gets. No other bugs that affect me, thats not to say they arent there.


As I have mentioned elsewhere, Humax are no slower than any other STB manufacturers. Sky, Bt Vision, (Both last year for me) Digifusion(None ever) spring to mind.

4)
Same as (3) What manufacturer will come on Ds(Or elsewhere) and give promisses, to then be torn apart when they dont make the timescale.
My only contact with Humax has been by phone when they were helpfull.

I like the Humax Freesat PVR. Mine has ver.2003 which seems to be more reliable according to other posters.If it had faults I would say so very quickly.